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View Poll Results: How do you feel about some of the recent pricing for Amiga games?
PHYSICAL - €34.95 - YES, this price is justified and I'm ok with it. 2 40.00%
PHYSICAL - €34.95 - NO, I believe this price is too much. 1 20.00%
DIGITAL - €29.95 - YES, this price is justified and I'm ok with it. 0 0%
DIGITAL - €29.95 - NO, I believe this price is too much. 4 80.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 5. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 18 January 2020, 19:25   #1
BarryB
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Discussion about the cost and value of new Amiga games and whether they are overcharged or not!

Now available to pre-order from Binary Zone

Pre-Ordered mine, have YOU?
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Old 18 January 2020, 19:40   #2
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...not at £39.99 £35.99; that's absolutely mental

We're not talking new PC / PS4 / Xbox One quality games here... and it's really just a slightly more polished version of the unreleased 1992 game.

I hope the digital download will not be as extortionate; otherwise I'll definitely not bother.
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Old 18 January 2020, 21:43   #3
BarryB
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I know, pre-orders used to be £29.99, but now they're £35.99. I think this maybe my last physical order from them due to the prices, I know I like collecting boxes but I can't see them lowering the prices unless they just sell the box with disk/tape/cart and manual!
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Old 18 January 2020, 21:57   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryB View Post
I know, pre-orders used to be £29.99, but now they're £35.99. I think this maybe my last physical order from them due to the prices, I know I like collecting boxes but I can't see them lowering the prices unless they just sell the box with disk/tape/cart and manual!
It's absolutely nuts...

I felt exactly the same way when I saw the news related to this game a month or so ago: Matchic.

I mean; it's a poor man's Puzznic or any of these... and you want to charge how much exactly? I wouldn't pay more than a fiver

You know me, I'm all for supporting Amiga developers / authors etc... but it seems that some of them over the past year or so are absolutely taking the biscuit when it comes to ludicrous pricing for mediocre games

Another thing that really annoys me, and is definitely taking the mickey; is when the digital download price is virtually the same price as the physical copy... Reshoot R anyone

I'm sure the same thing will occur with Reshoot Proxima III as it's been gotten away with / somehow accepted before; mark my words!!!

Last edited by DamienD; 18 January 2020 at 22:07.
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Old 18 January 2020, 23:13   #5
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Pity they don't do an Amiga version of the Premium+ (£13.99) or Budget (£6.99) release like the do for the C64!
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Old 18 January 2020, 23:23   #6
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I have to agree, these prices are ludicrous, but good luck..

Sorry I'd rather pay for a indi title off steam for a fraction of the price.. In fact I'll go buy qwak for a fiver!
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Old 18 January 2020, 23:35   #7
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Agree, with these prices I'm not really motivated to buy these games anymore.
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Old 18 January 2020, 23:50   #8
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Exactly guys.

Best way to discourage this type of behaviour from greedy devs massively overvaluing their products, is to not purchase at all; be it physical or digital release!!!

Eventually they'll realise that they need to be realistic about pricing on a hobby / 30 year old computer; otherwise...

It just stinks; especially when there are so many free games way above the level of these so called "commercial" games... to name a few, but there are many others; Rygar, Trap Runner, Celtic Heart, River Raid Reloaded and the up coming Scourge of the Underkind.

Again, I'd like to reiterate that charging money for a game that you've worked hard on is totally fine

It's the dreaming up of stupid / unjustified prices which are in parallel with new "PC / PS4 / Xbox One" quality games which is immoral... this is what the Amiga community doesn't need, or want to have set as "the norm" (which is how I feel it's been going due to the rise in everything "Retro")

Last edited by DamienD; 19 January 2020 at 02:15.
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Old 19 January 2020, 01:32   #9
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Originally Posted by BippyM View Post
I have to agree, these prices are ludicrous, but good luck..

Sorry I'd rather pay for a indi title off steam for a fraction of the price.. In fact I'll go buy qwak for a fiver!
I bought QWAK from Jamie when I went to Byte Back in March 2009, can't believe it's nearly 11 years ago
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Old 19 January 2020, 02:38   #10
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I notice a certain smell in this thread, one which poisons several other threads in this great forum already. The smell of trolls poison.

@timeslip1974: Don´t be put off by comments of some guys who have never learned to filter their thoughts before putting them online, and so are destroying the community. They are loud and noisy, but they still are the crying minority. Glad you guys are so determined and finally release your game.
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Old 19 January 2020, 09:43   #11
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The law of supply and demand is one thing.
However, selling a physical version (box + manual + data carrier (floppy/CD/etc.) + other...) and a dematerialized version at a similar price sends a strange message to potential customers.
Nobody likes to be taken for a "cash cow".
Some people would do well to think about it...
The frankness that emanates here regarding the price is a subject that has been discussed many times in other threads in the past (on EAB and elsewhere). Not wanting to take it into account seems strange to me, especially since everybody agree to pay a price for a new production.
My two cents.
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Old 19 January 2020, 11:25   #12
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...selling a physical version (box + manual + data carrier (floppy/CD/etc.) + other...) and a dematerialized version at a similar price sends a strange message to potential customers.

This is very common practice within the whole media industry (games, magazines, audio,movies) and for a good reason: The costs for selling digitally rather than physically are kind of comparable. The human factors (development time etc.) are exactly the same, and digital distribution is not free either. Digistore24 for example gets about 20 - 45 percent of the asking price for providing servers, handling of files and money transaction, handling invoices, customer servicer etc.
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Old 19 January 2020, 11:25   #13
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I was really looking forward to Rotator, but I am afraid I can not afford it.
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Old 19 January 2020, 11:51   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzybee View Post
I notice a certain smell in this thread, one which poisons several other threads in this great forum already. The smell of trolls poison.

@timeslip1974: Don´t be put off by comments of some guys who have never learned to filter their thoughts before putting them online, and so are destroying the community. They are loud and noisy, but they still are the crying minority. Glad you guys are so determined and finally release your game.
Of course you would say something like that and 100% support these silly prices... you're probably the main offender, and the reason why other developers are thinking: "Well it's been done before, we should try this also".

As for "destroying the community"; I suggest you take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror, your pricing and your "marketing practices" across forums.

You're not creating games for the love of the Amiga or the community as many others are... you are totally in it for the money; it's so blatantly obvious!!!

I mean, you seem to think it's ok to tell people that we really need to read your text / explanation to accompany a 15 second video, but knowing full well that the only way to do so is by subscribing to your Patreon

Quote:
Originally Posted by malko View Post
The law of supply and demand is one thing.
However, selling a physical version (box + manual + data carrier (floppy/CD/etc.) + other...) and a dematerialized version at a similar price sends a strange message to potential customers.
Nobody likes to be taken for a "cash cow".
Some people would do well to think about it...
The frankness that emanates here regarding the price is a subject that has been discussed many times in other threads in the past (on EAB and elsewhere). Not wanting to take it into account seems strange to me, especially since everybody agree to pay a price for a new production.
My two cents.
Exactly malko

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzybee View Post
This is very common practice within the whole media industry (games, magazines, audio,movies) and for a good reason: The costs for selling digitally rather than physically are kind of comparable. The human factors (development time etc.) are exactly the same, and digital distribution is not free either. Digistore24 for example gets about 20 - 45 percent of the asking price for providing servers, handling of files and money transaction, handling invoices, customer servicer etc.
That's absolute bollocks Richard and you know it.

Here's some recent examples of Amiga games for sale in regards to physical versus digital price:

Black Dawn Rebirth:
Physical: https://doublesidedgames.com/shop/co...-dawn-rebirth/ CAD$ 59.99
Digital: https://doublesidedgames.com/shop/co...-dawn-rebirth/ CAD$ 12.99


Worthy:
Physical: https://amiga.net.pl/index.php?lng=e...=10010&tms=308 €23
Digital: https://amiga.net.pl/index.php?lng=e...=10010&tms=309 €9


Bridge Strike:
Physical: https://amiga.net.pl/index.php?lng=e...=10010&tms=405 €17
Digital: https://amiga.net.pl/index.php?lng=e...=10010&tms=407 €11


Skill Grid:
Physical: https://rgcd.bigcartel.com/product/skillgrid-amiga £17
Digital: https://retream.itch.io/skillgrid/purchase?popup=1 $7.99


Pong4K:
Physical: https://amiga.net.pl/index.php?lng=e...=10010&tms=427 €9
Digital: https://amiga.net.pl/index.php?lng=e...=10010&tms=428 €5


Tiger Claw:
Physical: https://rgcd.bigcartel.com/product/tiger-claw-amiga £15
Digital: https://rgcddev.itch.io/tiger-claw/purchase?popup=1 $2.99


Power Glove Reloaded:
Physical: https://rgcd.bigcartel.com/product/p...reloaded-amiga £15
Digital: https://rgcddev.itch.io/powerglove-r...rchase?popup=1 $2.99


Solid Gold:
Physical: https://amiga.net.pl/index.php?lng=e...=10010&tms=256 €13
Digital: Free


Trap Runner:
Physical: https://www.amigashop.org/product_in...roducts_id=289 €15
Digital: Free

Oh wow, look at that... for all 9 of the above games listed; the digital download price is usually less than half the price of the physical, and sometimes only a quarter or even free.

I have no issue with the physical or digital pricing of any games listed above. These are fair prices


Now let's have a closer look at your pricing for Reshoot R shall we?
Physical: https://www.amigashop.org/product_in...roducts_id=293 €34.95
Signature: https://www.amigashop.org/product_in...roducts_id=294 €47.95
Digital: https://www.amigashop.org/product_in...roducts_id=295 €29.95

...or even Reshoot?
Physical: https://www.amigashop.org/product_in...roducts_id=273 €23.95
Digital: https://www.amigashop.org/product_in...roducts_id=273 €18.95

I don't know about you guys, but something here sticks out like a sore thumb...

You can try to pull the wool over peoples' eyes in order to suit your own agenda Richard, but the figures don't lie... you also can't scrub out people's opinions / feelings on this, no matter what BS justification you try to conjure up

Last edited by DamienD; 19 January 2020 at 14:51.
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Old 19 January 2020, 13:19   #15
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It would be interesting to see the cost breakdown for the development of these games, the marketing/publishing/packaging costs and how the final physical/digital selling price is determined to justify the pricing. But, that all depends *IF* devs/pubs want to share that information and how transparent/honest they want to be if they do!

Maybe this would be a good project for some of the Amiga/Retro news/game sites, to investigate the costs involved to make these games, excluding 'crowd funding' like Kickstarter, Indiegogo, Patreon etc?
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Old 19 January 2020, 14:35   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzybee View Post
I notice a certain smell in this thread, one which poisons several other threads in this great forum already. The smell of trolls poison.

@timeslip1974: Don´t be put off by comments of some guys who have never learned to filter their thoughts before putting them online, and so are destroying the community. They are loud and noisy, but they still are the crying minority. Glad you guys are so determined and finally release your game.
I genuinely don't give a shit how much you charge for your game. If it is too expensive then users will vote with their wallets and juat get a pirated copy!

I give a shit about your attitude towards anyone who questions you, anyone who doesn't agree with you. Nobody can say anything about your products unless it is glowing with praise. Let's face some home truths here.

If you post on this forum, which is a public forum then you leave yourself open to people having an opinion. I suggest if you don't like it, you know where the door is.

I don't see you contribute anything to this community unless it is for your own financial gain!

Now i really don't care about your feelings on this matter.. Accept that people will havr an opinion on everything. Accept that crying will do you no good and craxk on.. Do your game, make it great and accept we all have our opinions!
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Old 19 January 2020, 15:29   #17
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Thread now moved out of the News section... we don't need this type of discussion broadcast across all of the http://abime.net/ network...
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Old 19 January 2020, 16:30   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzybee View Post
I notice a certain smell in this thread, one which poisons several other threads in this great forum already. The smell of trolls poison.

@timeslip1974: Don´t be put off by comments of some guys who have never learned to filter their thoughts before putting them online, and so are destroying the community. They are loud and noisy, but they still are the crying minority. Glad you guys are so determined and finally release your game.
I really have to pull you up on this point Richard

You seem to be implying that I'm a troll and a destroyer of the Amiga community... nothing could be further from the truth

Ok yes, I'm opinionated and won't just sit back and say nothing when something is wrong... but you really need to do your research before you make such allegations towards me.

Everything I do is in order to progress the Amiga community and absolutely free; not for personal, financial gain; unlike yourself...

Let's see, here's a quick list, but by no means exhaustive:
  • Moderated the most popular Amiga forum 24 / 7 for many, many years now.
  • Constantly provide help / advise / feedback to users who need assistance with everything Amiga related.
  • Created / shared my own project to the public; that's taken over 15 years to perfect.
  • Given back all donations to the above, and more, to the Amiga community and key figures.
  • Contributed over £1000 pounds to Toni in donations over the numerous years as a thank you for his continuous hard work.
  • Looked after one of the Amiga community's most valuable resources; the "EAB File Server" and donated to Turran on numerous occasion to better the hardware / performance / throughput.
  • Uploaded virtually the complete TOSEC files to the "EAB File Server" so that others can obtain easily.
  • Sponsored €700 to the "EAB Games Competition" and run this without any help.
  • Purchased quite a few rare Amiga games and donated them to other members so that they can be preserved; as I don't have the hardware.
  • Supported / purchased numerous games over the years from developers.
  • Numerous other things which I've currently forgotten...

Last edited by DamienD; 19 January 2020 at 17:50.
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Old 19 January 2020, 16:31   #19
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It would be interesting to see the cost breakdown for the development of these games, the marketing/publishing/packaging costs and how the final physical/digital selling price is determined to justify the pricing. But, that all depends *IF* devs/pubs want to share that information and how transparent/honest they want to be if they do!

Maybe this would be a good project for some of the Amiga/Retro news/game sites, to investigate the costs involved to make these games, excluding 'crowd funding' like Kickstarter, Indiegogo, Patreon etc?
I may be able to shed some light on this.

The first thing you have to take into account is Inflation, in 1992 £14 is the equivalent to £25 in today's prices, and £25 in 1992 is £45.

https://www.inflationtool.com/britis...e?amount=25.00

Here's the forecasts I did for the Rygar boxes:

Product (inc. VAT) £5.21 50 £260.50
Shipping and CIF £101.59 1 £101.59
Total £362.09
Duty @11% £46.00
Foam £1.00 £50.00
Envelopes £0.36 £18.00
Total Delivered Cost £476.09
Price per box £9.52

Now that doesn't include a manual, the floppy disks or the labels. So you can safely add about £4.00 to the price per game box.

£13.50 to produce a Frontier 2 sized box which if I'm honest, anything else just won't do as there's no point.

Now what is the real kicker is the delivery and distribution costs, unless you use a distributor who'll take a hefty cut, delivering into Europe is about £6 un-tracked, £10 tracked, outside of Europe costs more... like £13.

So before you even start you're looking at £15-£20 just to get the box delivered to the customer based on small numbers (50).

Now to code a game takes a long time, it took me a year to do Rygar and it's well documented, 6 months to do Bomb Jack, but did I do for the money? ... if I did I would be completely skint.

So what do I think is fair...? If a game is good people will buy it/support the devs/community, if it's bad people won't buy it (Iron Gate/Amiten shite)...or at least they won't buy it in decent numbers (At least 100+)

For me I would be well happy if I made £1,000 a year from making Amiga games, any money I made from Rygar I fed back into the Amiga and the community.

So I think for a well made game that took 6-9 months to create then on digital download people should be paying around £5 to £10, if they want a shiny box delivered around the World then it should be circa £30.

Don't forget - games is not just about the coder...the entire team should be paid depending on the circumstances.

Geezer
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Old 19 January 2020, 16:44   #20
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This is very common practice within the whole media industry (games, magazines, audio,movies) and for a good reason: The costs for selling digitally rather than physically are kind of comparable. The human factors (development time etc.) are exactly the same, and digital distribution is not free either. Digistore24 for example gets about 20 - 45 percent of the asking price for providing servers, handling of files and money transaction, handling invoices, customer servicer etc.
Then quite obviously, you need to find a more competitive alternative to Digistore24.

Let's be clear here, 45% is nearly HALF of the selling price.

You could do all the hosting and selling yourself, there are plenty of budget alternatives than literally giving away half of your efforts to someone else.

Steam PROVES that not all digital sales are the same. That the likes of Sony think they can get away with charging the same on Playstation Network for a digital download as they could for the physical version is one reason why I will NEVER pay for a Sony digital download.

Steam however shows what is possible, and shows that the cost isn't always the same, no box, no artwork charge, no instruction manual, no disks, no badge etc, etc, these items all come at a cost the digital one doesn't.

I'm not going to jump on any angry bandwagons here, but you have CUSTOMERS telling you you're charging too much and you appear to be dismissing them.

You could do that when the Amiga was king and selling software in the hundreds of the thousands, but those days are long gone.

I appreciate the efforts of ANYONE, no matter whether its a tour de force in programming, or its a simple effort, but you have something called history that isn't on your side.

I can probably count on one hand the amount of Amiga titles back in its golden years that attracted a pricepoint of £35.

Shadow of the Beast is one, the edition with the Roger Dean T-Shirt.

But it wasn't the norm.

If anyone is under the illusion that they are going to get rewarded handsomely for their Amiga game efforts today in 2020, they are in it for the wrong reasons.

Frankly no amount of money is going to adequately compensate ANYONE for anything done on the Amiga in the past 20 years, because the Amiga is no longer financially viable where you could quit your job and just do Amiga games, so if your price point of £35 is to try and rectify that, I can assure you, it NEVER will.

You are most welcome to charge whatever you like for the games you make, but coincidentally, customers are also welcome to pass up on your games and buy something else, because the market seems to have settled on prices most people are happy to pay, yours seem to be quite a bit higher.

Me personally? I'd rather have hundreds of happy customers waiting eagerly with their money for my next release, rather than maybe 40 people.

You'll make the choice thats right for you
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