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Old 12 November 2017, 22:59   #61
Amigajay
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Originally Posted by Megol View Post
But isn't the PS1 using 256 colors?
The NeoGeo can display over 3000 colours on-screen without tricks, i'm not sure how many colours Metal Slug used, but the PS1 version hasn't lost any detail in that regard.
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Old 12 November 2017, 23:07   #62
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...this whole thread is just plain silly in my own opinion.

I'm an Arcade junkie and also love the Amiga (but am quite aware of the limitations)

Even if by some miracle / super coder knowledge; a somewhat *decent* port could be done on a 'supped up Amiga; would I really play it over the original Arcade version?

Nope!!!

Why bother; only to prove that it can be done to a certain extent?

...and here's the thing, we are not even close to that, all this discussion is just theory... converting graphics is 1% - 5% of the work, maximum... good luck actually getting it running well...

Again, I'll eat my shorts if this ever becomes reality; you can hold me to that

@Trachu; yes we all know about the "Rygar" project... it's been going on for how long now? Close to 2 years, and stage one doesn't even play well; still only 27 stages left to go though... and this game was from 1986...

Sorry but this is reality... although of course I really applaud sandruzzo's hard work / commitment...

Yet you seem to think that a way more complex "Neo-Geo" game is somehow possible on the Amiga

Last edited by DamienD; 13 November 2017 at 00:00.
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Old 13 November 2017, 08:23   #63
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...and here's the thing, we are not even close to that, all this discussion is just theory... converting graphics is 1% - 5% of the work, maximum... good luck actually getting it running well...
I also don't get the obsession with arcade ports, that in the end will have to be cut down significantly and won't even come close to the original. Back in the days it made sense, as money was made with these games, but now...

Wouldn't it be more satisfying to create your own "Metal Slug inspired" game instead of trying to port the original. That way you could more easily adjust the game to make use of the Amigas strengths, and nobody would be able to complain about it not being arcade-perfect enough. Also not having to worry about any possible copyright holders is a great bonus.
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Old 13 November 2017, 09:25   #64
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Better off if you're obsessed with all things Neo Geo, is to do something like Viewpoint, simpler game and can be graphically changed so no copyright issues.
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Old 13 November 2017, 09:37   #65
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Viewpoint was one of my favorites: an isometric R-type with pre-rendered sprites and house/garage soundtrack
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Old 13 November 2017, 09:51   #66
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Coders like arcade ports because they get all the graphics and sound and gameplay made for them, and are notoriously talentless with DPaint :-)

There are lots of older arcade games that could get really good Amiga ports. Not even 8 bit ones, take games like Midnight Resistance for example. The Amiga version isn't bad at all, and actually slows down about as much as the arcade version does. Both are 68k based but I don't know why the arcade hardware gets so much slowdown.
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Old 13 November 2017, 12:46   #67
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Coders like arcade ports because they get all the graphics and sound and gameplay made for them, and are notoriously talentless with DPaint :-)
But it's usually not coders going nuts here on forums with posts like "WHY HASN'T THIS BEEN PORTED TO THE AMIGA????"
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Old 13 November 2017, 13:31   #68
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IMHO the really cool thing about Metal Slug is the animations.
Big sprites? Yeah, guess that's kinda cool in combination with animation.
Lots of sprites? Soon becomes messy. But then I'm not a fan of bullet hell type of shooters.
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Old 13 November 2017, 14:06   #69
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I also don't get the obsession with arcade ports
..............
But it's usually not coders going nuts here on forums with posts like "WHY HASN'T THIS BEEN PORTED TO THE AMIGA????"
I guess because with ports it gives a sense of 'writing to specs' so people can tell themselves all these demands are reasonable or whatever.

Personally, writing software 'to specs' is mindnumbingly boring and uninteresting..... Its like work :-/
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Old 13 November 2017, 14:25   #70
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A fine example here of what's called "building castles in the air".

But the craziest part here isn't wanting to do this game on the Amiga. It is wanting to do it on A500 !
I have next to no knowledge about neo geo hardware, but from the video an Amiga with RTG+060 should in theory be able to run a 1:1 port.
Now is it worth doing, maybe not.
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Old 13 November 2017, 14:39   #71
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From a coders perspective, trying to make an "impossible" arcade/console conversion like this can be an interesting hobby project, but also it can be extremely time consuming and stressful.

When someone starts a project like this, people often expect that the end result will be a full game of commercial quality. But in reality, one hobbyist programmer can code maybe 5 % to 10 % of the whole game. If he's fast, it'll take maybe 6 months, and if he's slower, it'll take a whole year or more. Doing a whole game as complex as Metal Slug would take many years.

What is realisticly possible to do is just ONE short demo level. And if a fully working demo level is successfully made, then the conversion project should be considered a success. If the demo level is good, then it has been proven that it "can be done".

But even if the demo is good, it is totally unrealistic to expect a full game. The amount of work and time required is huge. Also a 100% finished conversion might end up with copyright issues, and be removed from the net. But a partially finished one level demo is unlikely to cause any issues.

So if we think it this way, then for example the Rygar project is already a success; it has proven that the basic A500 could have done a 1:1 port of Rygar back in the day. So the "prove that it can be done" part has already been accomplished. From the programmers perspective, all that remains after this is just a lot of work. 90% of the game still remains unfinished, and it takes years to finish it. If the full game is indeed one day finished, then awesome, but we shouldn't realisticly expect that to happen any time soon.

---

And just like DamienD said, no one really wants to play an Amiga arcade conversion that is almost as good as the arcade version. So indeed there is no point at all to make a full conversion, and therefore there is also no reason to expect that someone would do that.

What the people *really* want to see, is basically the same thing that the hobbyist programmer wants to make: a small tech demo that just "proves the point" in a satisfactory manner. A short one level demo that shows us a glimpse of how the game could have looked on the A500 or A1200, if it was really converted to Amiga back then. And after we have seen this, both the programmer and the people should be happy. The point has been proven and the mission accomplished.

This sort of sensible approach would make these "conversion projects" much more appealing for potential programmers.

We have many great Amiga programmers out there who make great Amiga scene demos with flashing lights and stuff. But almost no-one seems to make playable small "game tech demos", and this has always puzzled me, because the lack of ambition can't be the reason. So could the reason then be that scene demos are relatively stress free to make: you can safely release a 10 minute demo without the fear that people would start expecting you to make a 2 hour movie next.

So maybe it's time for the Amiga community to start treating these "arcade conversion projects" as "scene demos" of sorts, instead of serious full game projects.

Quote:
But the craziest part here isn't wanting to do this game on the Amiga. It is wanting to do it on A500 !
In the Blitter we trust.
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Old 13 November 2017, 15:42   #72
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Akira,upload the video of eating shorts,I want to watch
Hey leave my shorts out of this!
And I'll only eat them in full when the full thing is presented! :P
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Old 13 November 2017, 19:16   #73
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Originally Posted by Master484 View Post
But a partially finished one level demo is unlikely to cause any issues.
Unlikely, but still might, depending on the copyright holders.

Quote:
We have many great Amiga programmers out there who make great Amiga scene demos with flashing lights and stuff. But almost no-one seems to make playable small "game tech demos", and this has always puzzled me, because the lack of ambition can't be the reason.
More like lack of interest

Quote:
So could the reason then be that scene demos are relatively stress free to make: you can safely release a 10 minute demo without the fear that people would start expecting you to make a 2 hour movie next.
Kind of, demos are more fun to make compared to games. But mainly because you don't have to worry about boring parts like game mechanics, level design and so on.

Also, some time ago I was actually considering trying to put together some kind of a playable wolf3d-clone, considering I already had the rendering part done for a demo. But after having read several "OMG OMG I WANT WOLF3D ON A500!!!11"-threads on different Amiga forums I quickly lost interest.
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Old 13 November 2017, 19:26   #74
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Here is a quick mock up screenshot on how Metal Slug might look on the A500, using the assests that Trachu zoned:



Although I changed the colors from 16 to the 8 + 8 dual playfield format, with pretty good results.

Also, the player could be a sprite, so in reality it could have it's own 16 color palette.

So theoretically the graphics themselves might look pretty nice on the A500.

But a 2 MB machine is needed to store all the GFX, so A1200 and 16 + 16 Dual Playfields sounds better.

But of course who says that AGA should always use a 16+16 color playfield? It can also use 8+8, which would allow more frames, more speed, less loading and so on.

I haven't tested how fast A1200 is in 8 colors, but should be super fast.

So maybe 8+8 on AGA would be the best choice? But you decide, no way I'm going to do a crazy project like this.
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Old 13 November 2017, 20:31   #75
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That does look quite good.
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Old 13 November 2017, 21:03   #76
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I wonder how many frames of animation per character you'd get. It could look pretty bad in motion.
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Old 13 November 2017, 21:13   #77
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I'm all for "tech demos" and the stuff you did with blitz was certainly impressive, however I think you overestimate what Blitz can do. A tech demo is all well and good but it often misses a lot of the underlying logic and gameplay.. Having a character run around, and shoot this and that isn't the same as having a full game, with full levels. Once the logic, A&I, proper character handling, full collision detection and then multiple enemies, projectiles on screen that all needs to be tracked it makes it a whole different ball game.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Master484 View Post
From a coders perspective, trying to make an "impossible" arcade/console conversion like this can be an interesting hobby project, but also it can be extremely time consuming and stressful.

When someone starts a project like this, people often expect that the end result will be a full game of commercial quality. But in reality, one hobbyist programmer can code maybe 5 % to 10 % of the whole game. If he's fast, it'll take maybe 6 months, and if he's slower, it'll take a whole year or more. Doing a whole game as complex as Metal Slug would take many years.

What is realisticly possible to do is just ONE short demo level. And if a fully working demo level is successfully made, then the conversion project should be considered a success. If the demo level is good, then it has been proven that it "can be done".

But even if the demo is good, it is totally unrealistic to expect a full game. The amount of work and time required is huge. Also a 100% finished conversion might end up with copyright issues, and be removed from the net. But a partially finished one level demo is unlikely to cause any issues.

So if we think it this way, then for example the Rygar project is already a success; it has proven that the basic A500 could have done a 1:1 port of Rygar back in the day. So the "prove that it can be done" part has already been accomplished. From the programmers perspective, all that remains after this is just a lot of work. 90% of the game still remains unfinished, and it takes years to finish it. If the full game is indeed one day finished, then awesome, but we shouldn't realisticly expect that to happen any time soon.

---

And just like DamienD said, no one really wants to play an Amiga arcade conversion that is almost as good as the arcade version. So indeed there is no point at all to make a full conversion, and therefore there is also no reason to expect that someone would do that.

What the people *really* want to see, is basically the same thing that the hobbyist programmer wants to make: a small tech demo that just "proves the point" in a satisfactory manner. A short one level demo that shows us a glimpse of how the game could have looked on the A500 or A1200, if it was really converted to Amiga back then. And after we have seen this, both the programmer and the people should be happy. The point has been proven and the mission accomplished.

This sort of sensible approach would make these "conversion projects" much more appealing for potential programmers.

We have many great Amiga programmers out there who make great Amiga scene demos with flashing lights and stuff. But almost no-one seems to make playable small "game tech demos", and this has always puzzled me, because the lack of ambition can't be the reason. So could the reason then be that scene demos are relatively stress free to make: you can safely release a 10 minute demo without the fear that people would start expecting you to make a 2 hour movie next.

So maybe it's time for the Amiga community to start treating these "arcade conversion projects" as "scene demos" of sorts, instead of serious full game projects.

In the Blitter we trust.
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Old 13 November 2017, 21:42   #78
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usually I find such projects interesting but Arcade ports like this, not console ports anything under some one like meynaf or Galahad converting AnimaInCorpore work just isn't going to work for this.

As far as I know although it says Neo Geo emulator but the 68k code is running directly.
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Old 13 November 2017, 21:55   #79
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I don't really see the point in either trying to make an accurate conversion (or as close as possible) or a tech demo, but I would very much welcome any attempt at doing it deriving into the creation of a new Amiga game using the tech discovered in the process. So I guess making a tech demo is OK as long as it ends with some actual game production.

In the case of Metal Slug, I loved the NeoGeo Pocket version of it and it has a LOT less going on. Somehow it still keeps the essence though. I am sure the Amiga can do something better than the NGPC but with this essence. Again, as mentioned by me many times before, it all boils down to game design rather than tech prowess.


We saw the release of this demo this week, and although it DOES look impressive, there's a lot of "cheating" involved within that makes a game of this type actually impossible, but I hope that it leads onto some interesting developments in real games for the platform:
[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 13 November 2017, 22:05   #80
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Originally Posted by Akira View Post
I don't really see the point in either trying to make an accurate conversion (or as close as possible) or a tech demo, but I would very much welcome any attempt at doing it deriving into the creation of a new Amiga game using the tech discovered in the process. So I guess making a tech demo is OK as long as it ends with some actual game production.

In the case of Metal Slug, I loved the NeoGeo Pocket version of it and it has a LOT less going on. Somehow it still keeps the essence though. I am sure the Amiga can do something better than the NGPC but with this essence. Again, as mentioned by me many times before, it all boils down to game design rather than tech prowess.


We saw the release of this demo this week, and although it DOES look impressive, there's a lot of "cheating" involved within that makes a game of this type actually impossible, but I hope that it leads onto some interesting developments in real games for the platform:
[ Show youtube player ]
Saw that Amstrad Beast yesterday, pretty amazing what they achieved, shows that the version released could have been so much better.
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