Amiga 500 Vampire

[jarp]

Originally Posted by pandy71

Nice but as a hobbyist i can assembly such board by myself...

There is queue of more than 1000 Vampire 600 boards and god knows how many Vampire 500 etc. boards will be sold. Would you personally solder all those as a hobby too? No, it is impossible, plain and simple.

[Sinphaltimus]

Originally Posted by jarp

There is queue of more than 1000 Vampire 600 boards and god knows how many Vampire 500 etc. boards will be sold. Would you personally solder all those as a hobby too? No, it is impossible, plain and simple.

I don't think that's what he meant.

I for one wish they would just sell the preprogrammed parts at a discount so I too can assemble the board myself.

Hell, put kits on ebay for assembly by purchaser. Watch how fast those go as well. And leaving it to the bid process is better for the devs.

I don't care if I was a pro at board assembly, I'd loose my mind after the 10th one.

[jarp]

Originally Posted by Sinphaltimus

I don't think that's what he meant.

I for one wish they would just sell the preprogrammed parts at a discount so I too can assemble the board myself.

Ah could be true, sorry about my misunderstanding. True, I would also like to buy plain board and assemble and program the board myself. Probably minority of hobbyist actually can pull that off though, but i.e. in OSSC project they do the both; DIY kits for they who can and then factory manufactured boards for the rest.

Oh well but it is their decision of course.

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by jarp

There is queue of more than 1000 Vampire 600 boards and god knows how many Vampire 500 etc. boards will be sold. Would you personally solder all those as a hobby too? No, it is impossible, plain and simple.

Well, trust me i have no problem to solder few of them and yes i fully understand your point but i will not change my mind - sorry but from my perspective 250E is too much for me.

Estimate PCB assembly cost by yourself:
http://www.7pcb.com/PCB-Assembly-Quo...ate&x=81&y=14#

http://pcbshopper.com/#assembly

It is good to mention this design https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ategory_newest most expensive 229E - for 229E:

"Altera FPGA MAX 10, UP² (UP Squared) is powered by Intel® Pentium™ Quad Core N4200 up to 2.5Ghz, up to 8GB of RAM LPDDR4 Dual Channels 64 bit onboard, up to 128 GB onboard eMMC 5.0, more I/O ports including 3 USB 3.0, 2 USB 2.0, 2 Gigabit LAN, 2 HDMI, eDP, mini PCI-e/mini card SATA, M.2 2230, SATA 3.0, 2 CSI and additional 60 pin board-to-board expansion (EXHAT) with GPIO and many other features."

Very similar, niche project addressed mostly toward hobbyist - size comparable to Vampire, more components and components are also more expensive and probably PCB is more than 4 layer...

[Zetr0]

@Thread

Only a very VERY few of us here have experience of BGA SMT - it is not something I would recommend to anyone to build at home. Experienced adepts and engineers apply only to BGA building.

Also the equipment needed to produce a working product is not cheap, within the UK I wouldn't suggest anyone attempt BGA SMT without spending atleast £800 on IrDA Lamps / or Ovens.

I can promise you even on the best day with everything going one's way that out of every 10 units you created at home, there will be atleast 1 that fails - simply because the temperature was out during a heating or cooling phase - and you wont know until you test them - sadly buying an X-Ray machine is both expensive and legally frowned upon for home use.

The thing about price is that its subjective if I have load of cash then 250 Euro's is nothing to my hobby - however like most - I don't have oodles of cash lying around, yet I personally feel this is the price point that Majsta should of used at the start of sellin these units - sadly hind-sight is an exact science - and I applaud them for trying to get it cheaper to the end user and I know that they lost a lot of money once Intel bought Altera and the Cyclone 3 quadrupled in cost over night.

Sadly this has cost both "good will" and integrity and that is a very sad shame considering - this puts the product at a price / performance area of the market which makes sense. 250 Euros would get you an 040 or 50Mhz 030 with lots of RAM and SCSI - and while the later provide an FPU at this point (the V2 still doesn't - 03/11/2016) - it still offers amazing amounts of processing power at least 5 times that of the 040 - it provides an RTG display adaptor as well as SD storage and HDMI out - pretty impressive when you stack it against products in its price bracket.


@Pandy71
Not sure its fair my friend to compare an x86 product that has these components flooded on the market over the last 8 years to a bespoke custom design like the Vampire - of course its a lot more powerful but its also a lot more embedded tech straight from Intel's factories - the vampire2 we see about today was initially cooked up by a guy whom 4 ish years ago only started learning FPGA technology - creating several proof of concept models, once teamed with the Apollo Team - that is where the real magic happens.

Also my friend, we know that it costs more than just a Bill of Materials (BOM), there are license fees along side development and set up cost that have to be met. When you have 100 orders for a product, sure one can give that order quantity a go at home - but the moment you are into over 200 units and people expect them within a 28 day time frame - this is not something one can do at home - and remain sane with all the questions and additional orders flooding in.

How the team managed to handle over 600 V2 units for the Amiga A600 is nothing short of Amazing and must of taken sheer will power to process it all (and still make over 600 units)

[kipper2k]

Originally Posted by jarp

There is queue of more than 1000 Vampire 600 boards and god knows how many Vampire 500 etc. boards will be sold. Would you personally solder all those as a hobby too? No, it is impossible, plain and simple.

There is actually not a queue of over 1000 V600s some of those orders have already been filled, another 100 will be filled by early next week and another 100 in approx 2 weeks.. I am hoping to get 600 through the door by xmas. Production has been ramped up by pre-assembly as it was impossible to keep up with demand and this was the reason for the price increase to allow us to get these out ASAP to appease the masses

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by Zetr0

@Thread

Only a very VERY few of us here have experience of BGA SMT - it is not something I would recommend to anyone to build at home. Experienced adepts and engineers apply only to BGA building.

Also the equipment needed to produce a working product is not cheap, within the UK I wouldn't suggest anyone attempt BGA SMT without spending atleast £800 on IrDA Lamps / or Ovens.

True

Originally Posted by Zetr0

I can promise you even on the best day with everything going one's way that out of every 10 units you created at home, there will be atleast 1 that fails - simply because the temperature was out during a heating or cooling phase - and you wont know until you test them - sadly buying an X-Ray machine is both expensive and legally frowned upon for home use.

True

Originally Posted by Zetr0

The thing about price is that its subjective if I have load of cash then 250 Euro's is nothing to my hobby - however like most - I don't have oodles of cash lying around, yet I personally feel this is the price point that Majsta should of used at the start of sellin these units - sadly hind-sight is an exact science - and I applaud them for trying to get it cheaper to the end user and I know that they lost a lot of money once Intel bought Altera and the Cyclone 3 quadrupled in cost over night.

Yes but Altera was always more expenssive than Xilinx and as a spinoff of Intel (in past) closely working with Intel (for many years) and Intel searching for new approach to deliver higher performance (so reprogramable HW on horizon already done on some Xeon CPU line) - it was not difficult to predict Alter acquisition by Intel (and unavoidable increase in price).
I asked multiple times for pre-order possibility or other way of crowd funding - most of us is aware that such design will be expensive and single person may have problem to put such money from a pocket (parts need to be ordered, PCB need to be made and assembled - this is at least 80k U$D for 1000 pcs batch), i was not alone and i was quite happy to take a risk and put for example 150E in upfront for design and production.

Originally Posted by Zetr0

Sadly this has cost both "good will" and integrity and that is a very sad shame considering - this puts the product at a price / performance area of the market which makes sense. 250 Euros would get you an 040 or 50Mhz 030 with lots of RAM and SCSI - and while the later provide an FPU at this point (the V2 still doesn't - 03/11/2016) - it still offers amazing amounts of processing power at least 5 times that of the 040 - it provides an RTG display adaptor as well as SD storage and HDMI out - pretty impressive when you stack it against products in its price bracket.

Well as you said - this is quite subjective but OK i will agree with you that matching other products for Amiga it is very or even more than very good deal for 250E but Amiga market is not healthy and i share Majsta personal feelings - that's why i'm unpleasantly surprised (but as i predicted price increase more than year AFAIR ago then surprise is not so significant).

Originally Posted by Zetr0

@Pandy71
Not sure its fair my friend to compare an x86 product that has these components flooded on the market over the last 8 years to a bespoke custom design like the Vampire - of course its a lot more powerful but its also a lot more embedded tech straight from Intel's factories - the vampire2 we see about today was initially cooked up by a guy whom 4 ish years ago only started learning FPGA technology - creating several proof of concept models, once teamed with the Apollo Team - that is where the real magic happens.

My point was not to beat Vampire as i'm convinced that Majsta and Apollo Team made magnificent work together - no doubt on this guys - please accept my appologies if you had impression like this - i respect you and your work - my point was to show product where only CPU cost more than 100U$D (Intel SRP is 161U$D http://ark.intel.com/products/95592/...-up-to-2_5-GHz )

Originally Posted by Zetr0

Also my friend, we know that it costs more than just a Bill of Materials (BOM), there are license fees along side development and set up cost that have to be met. When you have 100 orders for a product, sure one can give that order quantity a go at home - but the moment you are into over 200 units and people expect them within a 28 day time frame - this is not something one can do at home - and remain sane with all the questions and additional orders flooding in.

True however to compare it is better to focus on BOM as it is comparable and it was my point to compare product with similar target - niche hobbyist market.
So once again all this is true and i predicted this long time ago and personally i have serious doubt's on price to value based only on BOM.
Hope you see my point - i'm not trying to convince anyone to share my point. I expressed some opinion, i believe it was fair opinion, provided to support this opinion some objective facts - never trying to doubt on anyone skills, never denied right to make business in a way someone like as i'm adult person and i respect other people choices - i believe it is fair to express that from perspective of some customers such price may be not acceptable but i believe in overall nobody care about such opinion as market is so hungry that it will accept even twice higher price.
I also never tried to judge anyone ethics, morality etc - business have not ethic or morality and as such merits like this are not appropriate.

Originally Posted by Zetr0

How the team managed to handle over 600 V2 units for the Amiga A600 is nothing short of Amazing and must of taken sheer will power to process it all (and still make over 600 units)

Yes, it is true and fully inline with my previous statement.
Thank You All but particular respect goes to Majsta, Apollo Team and Kipper2k - All You proved something and this is highly inspiriting - i bought my Nexys and Basys FPGA boards already - will use this example and will try to do something less spectacular for myself.

[Zetr0]

@pandy71
Firstly my friend, I want you to know I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and experience, from what you share with our fellow members and the help and advice I have received from you in the past I have found massively invaluable.

This discussion is interesting because I think we are arguing the same point from different heights of the mountain lol!

Originally Posted by pandy71

Yes but Altera was always more expenssive than Xilinx and as a spinoff of Intel (in past) closely working with Intel (for many years) and Intel searching for new approach to deliver higher performance (so reprogramable HW on horizon already done on some Xeon CPU line) - it was not difficult to predict Alter acquisition by Intel (and unavoidable increase in price).

I humbly agree, however only from the standpoint of what we would know about the industry, its mergers and acquisitions - sadly we are the few that follow such deep tech deals and details - unfortunately not everyone does know or reads the financial times .

Originally Posted by pandy71

I asked multiple times for pre-order possibility or other way of crowd funding - most of us is aware that such design will be expensive and single person may have problem to put such money from a pocket (parts need to be ordered, PCB need to be made and assembled - this is at least 80k U$D for 1000 pcs batch),

I have to admit, I possibly have an ill conceived perception and concerns about "kick starter / Go Fund Me" - crowd funding in general - for group buys of small investment not a problem, however I have read stories of peoples research / work being used on cloned projects.

When you have a project that you are so invested in - I can see, nay feel the concern that someone that is somewhat nefarious would copy your concept / idea and use you hard work - therefore leaving all the effort you have made and invested in for nothing.

Originally Posted by pandy71

i was not alone and i was quite happy to take a risk and put for example 150E in upfront for design and production.

150e is a lot of funds for what is essentially a hobby, when I heard the price, I was shocked it was so low for such equipment, however thats just my perspective - I have paid over 300e for a bridge-board that allows me to use defunct PCI adaptors LOL, so I feel me arguing anything on price is questionably valid lol!

I think what the real bite is the price increase - most people were not expecting it and while I feel I am possibly on my own in saying that this should of come sooner - its incredibly easy to upset the Amiga community lol!

Originally Posted by pandy71

Well as you said - this is quite subjective but OK i will agree with you that matching other products for Amiga it is very or even more than very good deal for 250E but Amiga market is not healthy and i share Majsta personal feelings - that's why i'm unpleasantly surprised (but as i predicted price increase more than year AFAIR ago then surprise is not so significant).

Personally I don't think "they" had a choice in the price increase, if I have to argue fault I would say communication was the let down here, not surprising when both hardware engineers are scrambling to produce product and simply not having enough time to engage their customers.

This is by no means meant in any derogatory way, its a simple case of underestimating the market in the initial order quantities. After all, the A600 wasn't the most loved machine, and barring the Furia020 and ACA620, it hadn't seen an accelerator in over 20 years!

Originally Posted by pandy71

i believe it is fair to express that from perspective of some customers such price may be not acceptable but i believe in overall nobody care about such opinion as market is so hungry that it will accept even twice higher price.
I also never tried to judge anyone ethics, morality etc - business have not ethic or morality and as such merits like this are not appropriate.

I humbly agree sir, if anything I can say about the V2 500 project I can see how some of the community can be get upset and even enraged when they see these items on eBay commanding some very serious funds.

From what I have read Majsta provided these as prototypes to garner more funds for the project as well as negate some people making serious profit on their equipment they bought at 150e.

Sadly I felt this is flawed thinking, not only does it not stop people from selling their legally owned equipment it in some view gives credence to it - e.g. "If they can make that much perhaps I can" - I know this is not the case but others, and I suspect a lot, won't or don't see it that way.

The public don't see that those funds go back in to the project or mitigate losses and costs at the beginning of the project - this is why I would liked to of seen these on a "Go-Fund me" or "Kick Starter" - however legal rules and taxes change from country to country so this probably incurs a lot more messing about, possibly more than its worth.

As I said before hind-sight is an exact science and it doesn't take anyone clever or intelligent to work out problems after the fact - so me turning around and saying - you should of had some one dedicated to communications of sales and information - keeping people updated on their orders and also disseminating all the teams good works to the public at large.

but saying that it would make me "that guy "

Originally Posted by pandy71

Yes, it is true and fully inline with my previous statement.
Thank You All but particular respect goes to Majsta, Apollo Team and Kipper2k - All You proved something and this is highly inspiriting.

I couldn't agree more my friend thank you for your insights =)

[Mr.Flibble]

I'm looking forward to the Vampires in bulk - Given the crazy prices 25 year old hardware is reaching these days (£1000+ for old Phase5 or Blizzard gear), €250 seems entirely reasonable (€150 would be silly given the prices of the components/boards etc) and would enable them to build the Vampire 1200 & 3000/4000 + Standalones etc.

Of course what's reasonable for me isn't reasonable for everyone else (I certainly wouldn't pay £1000+ for a PPC Blizzard or Cyberstorm card, but someone else might).

I do wish they would consider a kickstarter or some other crowdfunding venture to secure funding for manufacture or further development of the series, but that's up to the guys building the cards.

[Retrofan]

Just to comment that sometimes it's a pleasure to open a thread and read posts like yours, so constructive, about a hardware development. You know that it has been quite the oposite in recent new projects.

[Spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by kipper2k

There is actually not a queue of over 1000 V600s some of those orders have already been filled, another 100 will be filled by early next week and another 100 in approx 2 weeks.. I am hoping to get 600 through the door by xmas. Production has been ramped up by pre-assembly as it was impossible to keep up with demand and this was the reason for the price increase to allow us to get these out ASAP to appease the masses

Great news, as far as the price goes your not going to get any complaints from me.

People seriously name one another accelerator which offers the same level of features and performance for the A600 or A500\A2000 for 250 euro which I can buy today. (Subject to your order in the Queue)

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by Zetr0

@pandy71
Firstly my friend, I want you to know I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and experience, from what you share with our fellow members and the help and advice I have received from you in the past I have found massively invaluable.

So this is mutual feeling.

Originally Posted by Zetr0

This discussion is interesting because I think we are arguing the same point from different heights of the mountain lol!

Well... highly possible - glass can be half full or half empty... (for me being engineer half full glass means it can be filled to top with some + [meniscus])

Originally Posted by Zetr0

I humbly agree, however only from the standpoint of what we would know about the industry, its mergers and acquisitions - sadly we are the few that follow such deep tech deals and details - unfortunately not everyone does know or reads the financial times .

Ok - my point was that even if this was predictable then choosing this particular vendor may be related to other factors (and as we know minimig use Altera so i assume everyone going for Altera as natural due easiness adapting code - is there any Xilinx minimig port?).
Also this is part of freedom of developer - to choose tool he like more.

Originally Posted by Zetr0

I have to admit, I possibly have an ill conceived perception and concerns about "kick starter / Go Fund Me" - crowd funding in general - for group buys of small investment not a problem, however I have read stories of peoples research / work being used on cloned projects.

When you have a project that you are so invested in - I can see, nay feel the concern that someone that is somewhat nefarious would copy your concept / idea and use you hard work - therefore leaving all the effort you have made and invested in for nothing.

I assume that design itself (HW part) is quite straightforward and sufficiently documented currently (Majsta page gives some answers how to solve most difficult parts from his perspective) - other factor is Apollo Team property - AFAIK it will stay closed and fully belongs to Apollo Team and at this moment generously donated to Majsta for Vampire project (in future maybe new cores will be introduced for a small royalty payed by every Vampire user - bug fixes, new functions etc) - all this may remove some doubts on stealing project by someone else but of course will may be insufficient - life is tough and as such personally all my eventual future projects probably will be open source.

Originally Posted by Zetr0

150e is a lot of funds for what is essentially a hobby, when I heard the price, I was shocked it was so low for such equipment, however thats just my perspective - I have paid over 300e for a bridge-board that allows me to use defunct PCI adaptors LOL, so I feel me arguing anything on price is questionably valid lol!

I think what the real bite is the price increase - most people were not expecting it and while I feel I am possibly on my own in saying that this should of come sooner - its incredibly easy to upset the Amiga community lol!

150E is IMHO fair price for hobbyist product (this complexity) for hobbyist - maybe some small increase as time going and prices of everything rising - problem is that during this time my salary didn't grow in same way as this price so i must limit my self even if like others waited for Vampire as ultimate answer for Amiga accelerator board - maybe in future when my salary grow in similar factor i will be able to share joy of other Vampire users.
And i'm not upset - i believe also Amiga community is not upset.

Originally Posted by Zetr0

Personally I don't think "they" had a choice in the price increase, if I have to argue fault I would say communication was the let down here, not surprising when both hardware engineers are scrambling to produce product and simply not having enough time to engage their customers.

And i don't blame anyone - at some point i've realized that something i've waited will not happen, it was a bit bitter moment, maybe too bitter in description - happen - life going forward and i think that i'm quite desolated in such impression (fractional minority).

Originally Posted by Zetr0

This is by no means meant in any derogatory way, its a simple case of underestimating the market in the initial order quantities. After all, the A600 wasn't the most loved machine, and barring the Furia020 and ACA620, it hadn't seen an accelerator in over 20 years!

Well... i predicted that Vampire bringing totally new quality to Amiga market (so fundamental different that even developers are incapable to understand that Vampire don't need to be emulate 68060 to deliver more processing power than any 68060 ever made) and it will be huge market for it.

Originally Posted by Zetr0

I humbly agree sir, if anything I can say about the V2 500 project I can see how some of the community can be get upset and even enraged when they see these items on eBay commanding some very serious funds.

From what I have read Majsta provided these as prototypes to garner more funds for the project as well as negate some people making serious profit on their equipment they bought at 150e.

I'm not upset and fully support Majsta on this - if He can gain additional funds due such biding then it is fine - i can wait few months - don't need to have board number 1 and if someone is willing to pay more to be first - not my money and not my circus - we are free people...

Originally Posted by Zetr0

Sadly I felt this is flawed thinking, not only does it not stop people from selling their legally owned equipment it in some view gives credence to it - e.g. "If they can make that much perhaps I can" - I know this is not the case but others, and I suspect a lot, won't or don't see it that way.

Well i can understand some disappointment and i can understand Majsta decision - he is the one that dedicated his time - and as i know reality of salaries some of us may earn 1000E per 1 working hour... He spent many hours of his life to create something considered by many as unrealistic and as i've long time ago realized that only FPGA may give Amiga this kind functionality (as i doubt about ASIC made by community - maybe combined 68k community but not Amiga only).
Majsta made something i've had in my head from more than 10 years and at this point His success is confirmation for my thoughts and that's why i'm wishing Him and Vampire all the best.

Originally Posted by Zetr0

I couldn't agree more my friend thank you for your insights =)

Hope this long story explained my very short expression that may be not entirely understood earlier - let stay friends with respect to all differences we may have, hope soon all community will celebrate commercial Vampire success as We all deserved after so many years of stagnation.
I also hope that Majsta and Apollo Team with all supporting guys will be at least enjoy fruits of they hard work - they deserved for this.
Kudos to All!
Thank You Zetr0 for a warm words - i appreciate this and i think it is best to close this discussion now hoping that Vampire will be great and affordable for most of us accelerator for Amiga. If someone feel offended - please accept my apologies - it was never my intention
Cheers!

[demolition]

Originally Posted by pandy71

150E is IMHO fair price for hobbyist product

I'd say a fair price for a hobby product is the price which covers the materials used in both production and development plus a small wage for the designer plus a bit to cover some of the risks. Whatever number you end up with is a fair price since we can't expect the designer to lose money and give us all presents.

[Adrian Browne]

Yeah. The vampire boards always seemed too cheap for what we were getting. 250 sounds ok. But I may wait for an a1200 vampire

[robinsonb5]

Originally Posted by pandy71

Ok - my point was that even if this was predictable then choosing this particular vendor may be related to other factors (and as we know minimig use Altera so i assume everyone going for Altera as natural due easiness adapting code - is there any Xilinx minimig port?).

Funnily enough, the original Minimig used Xilinx, even though the TG68-based variants have all been Altera-based (the exception being the FPGA reply board's Minimig port, assuming it does actually exist! :P )

I think Altera's easier for beginners to pick up than Xilinx for one very simple reason: SignalTap is available in the free version of the tools, whereas ChipScope isn't.

[Ratteler]

Originally Posted by kipper2k

There is actually not a queue of over 1000 V600s some of those orders have already been filled, another 100 will be filled by early next week and another 100 in approx 2 weeks.. I am hoping to get 600 through the door by xmas. Production has been ramped up by pre-assembly as it was impossible to keep up with demand and this was the reason for the price increase to allow us to get these out ASAP to appease the masses

I don' think it was knock against you. I'm pretty sure it was compliment.

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by robinsonb5

Funnily enough, the original Minimig used Xilinx, even though the TG68-based variants have all been Altera-based (the exception being the FPGA reply board's Minimig port, assuming it does actually exist! :P )

Yep, my point was in TG68 that lead to Altera choice quite naturally...

Originally Posted by robinsonb5

I think Altera's easier for beginners to pick up than Xilinx for one very simple reason: SignalTap is available in the free version of the tools, whereas ChipScope isn't.

Logic Analyzer may be important factor but not sure if it was most important one... I think it is more related to some experience (university education?) and availability for free cores.

[robinsonb5]

Originally Posted by pandy71

Yep, my point was in TG68 that lead to Altera choice quite naturally...

Interesting - I'm not sure I understand why?
(The SOC project I put together when I was tinkering with this stuff last year works just fine on a Xilinx-based board - the EMS11-* targets for this project are Spartan-6 based if memory serves correctly. https://github.com/robinsonb5/TG68_MiniSOC )

Logic Analyzer may be important factor but not sure if it was most important one... I think it is more related to some experience (university education?) and availability for free cores.

True - I hadn't considered which tools are used in education, and that will indeed be a huge factor - whichever tools you learn first will generally be the ones you find most comfortable.

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by robinsonb5

Interesting - I'm not sure I understand why?
(The SOC project I put together when I was tinkering with this stuff last year works just fine on a Xilinx-based board - the EMS11-* targets for this project are Spartan-6 based if memory serves correctly. https://github.com/robinsonb5/TG68_MiniSOC )

Well i assume is more like: someone selected Altera and later followers avoiding Xilinx naturally - they can start FPGA exploration based on some working core - it is quite natural - seem Altera is more popular - i would estimate than in hobby market Altera is more than 60% (and we have few % for Lattice).

Originally Posted by robinsonb5

True - I hadn't considered which tools are used in education, and that will indeed be a huge factor - whichever tools you learn first will generally be the ones you find most comfortable.

In past Quartus II seem to be better than ISE - today... don't know - i have very low practical experience to compare both but some people doing such comparison:

http://www.bigmessowires.com/2011/09...for-hobbyists/

http://fpga4fun.com/FPGAsoftware1.html

Tools are quite important especially for us - hobbyists - as it will create real border for what we can do with FPGA (free tools are limited and also they support small and medium size FPGA - large FPGA are supported only by payed version of design tools and this is very expensive thing).

[jarp]

Originally Posted by Ratteler

I don' think it was knock against you. I'm pretty sure it was compliment.

Yes, my purpose was to compliment, not to knock Sometimes it's a bit hard to get a message through when you are not native language user...