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Old 17 February 2018, 15:42   #41
eteP
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The only thing the A3000 doesn't have is AGA although that is not really that big of a deal. Not as expandable as the A4k or the tower variants but I would argue that there's still more than sufficient room for expansions for most uses. And the case design is great!

The AA3000 with AGA and DSP co-processor would have been a really nice machine back in 1991.

I had an A3000 around 1994-98 and sold it to get an A1200+Blizzard PPC. That system was really unstable in comparison to my old rock solid A3000. Sold the A1200 also after a couple of years and migrated to using PCs with Linux. When I got struck by the Amiga-bug again recently the A3k was clearly the system to get first!
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Old 17 February 2018, 15:53   #42
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@Daedalus & Gorf, I never thought of it that way. Didn't consider the 5.25" FDD system. As you stated it was very antiquated at the time and 3.5" FDD was dominator. Looking at the A2K challenging the A3K having the 5.25" bay looked advanced and in some ways useful over the A3K case design.

Funny though, because when they released the A3K Tower they overkilled the 5.25" bays, by adding X3!!

@Gorf Also thinking about it, you could be right in regards to the use of CDROM's back in the day. CDTV would be the first and later came the A570, again what is interesting is why Commodore even bothered with this device? It was thought that the CDTV would do better than it actually did and that existing A500 owners would have an option, for large storage and CDTV compatibility.

The A3K Tower was no improvement in my opinion against the original A3K. That tower was just awful. Commodore could have done better but I think by that time, the A1200 and 4K were looming fast !!
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Old 17 February 2018, 16:45   #43
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Quote:
The A3K Tower was no improvement in my opinion against the original A3K. That tower was just awful.
True. They reused some PC-tower case, they had left. No effort spend at all.
Well at least it is roomy.

Quote:
It was thought that the CDTV would do better than it actually did and that existing A500 owners would have an option, for large storage and CDTV compatibility.
Th CDTV could have done a little bit better as it did with some proper advertising, marketing and a reasonable price.
$1000 were hilarious for a modified A500/A2000 board - even with the CD-ROM feature.

There was a lot of room for saving money in this device:
  • Big internal zorro-like expansion port - nobody was upgrading its VHS or CD-Player. No need for this in a living room device.
  • Parallel an serial ports - what for?
  • Floppy port ... you only need that for developers
  • MIDI-port. Yes the CDTV is the only Amiga with build in MIDI. And it is the only Amiga were it makes no sense at all..

Sell this device for $700 and use a proprietary ROM-filesystem, that enables you to control the software that gets published....

they made the price and many other things right later with the CD32, but they still had no clue about the game-console-business:
you need too earn your money with the software and not the hardware!!!

Allowing generic CD-ROMs makes it impossible to earn your share with every title... but that is the crucial business model here. The hardware is sold at production cost (or often below, what is technically illegal dumping, but ....)

Advertising done right, would have looked like this:


Last edited by Gorf; 18 February 2018 at 02:18.
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Old 17 February 2018, 17:01   #44
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Originally Posted by eteP View Post
The AA3000 with AGA and DSP co-processor would have been a really nice machine back in 1991.
Absolutely!

Now imagine the same case but 2 inches wider.
And the option of installing a cd-rom-drive with motorized slot-in right next to the floppy drive (instead of a 2nd floppy). Same optics of the front panel, just one narrow slot for the floppy and one wider slot for cd.
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Old 17 February 2018, 17:45   #45
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$1000 were hilarious for a modified A500/A2000 board - even with the CD-ROM feature.
Not if you know that in 1986 average CD audio player cost around 2000$ and even in 1990 you need to spent something like 500$ for audio CD player - you get for 1000$ player with computer allowing some interactive CD usage.
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Old 17 February 2018, 18:07   #46
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Not if you know that in 1986 average CD audio player cost around 2000$ and even in 1990 you need to spent something like 500$ for audio CD player - you get for 1000$ player with computer allowing some interactive CD usage.
OK:
for $500 all these manufacturers managed to build a nice case, a controller board, a display, a remote control, power supply, and of course the cd-drive and audio-DAC. And being profitable.

a A500 style board was surely below $100 including all chips.
And I listed some points, how it could have been done even cheaper.
so with $700 you should be still in a good profit range.

If you can not produce it cheap enough for that end-price in 91, don't even think about starting such a product: it won't sell!
And a product that does not sell, will hurt you, because you don't get back the development costs ....
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Old 17 February 2018, 18:16   #47
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And a product that does not sell, will hurt you, because you don't get back the development costs ....
As Commodore learned and the hard way!!
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Old 17 February 2018, 19:04   #48
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the difference...

The following picture illustrates what makes the A3000 case/look so special.
This would simply not work with a A2000 or A4000 case:

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Old 17 February 2018, 21:28   #49
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That is F****ING Awesome !!
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Old 18 February 2018, 01:46   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
OK:
for $500 all these manufacturers managed to build a nice case, a controller board, a display, a remote control, power supply, and of course the cd-drive and audio-DAC. And being profitable.
But this is not a computer and all you can do is play audio disc.

IMHO C= was profitable on all Amiga products - real C= loss was PC clones - at some point C= was pushed out of PC market with stock full of produced PC.
This is serious loss - PC market collapsed due cheap clones and large companies such as C= was unable to compete.
If C= will stay only with Amiga product line there will be no serious loss and financial troubles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
a A500 style board was surely below $100 including all chips.
And I listed some points, how it could have been done even cheaper.
so with $700 you should be still in a good profit range.

If you can not produce it cheap enough for that end-price in 91, don't even think about starting such a product: it won't sell!
And a product that does not sell, will hurt you, because you don't get back the development costs ....
CDTV and A570 was low volume product never intended to be large scale. I would be not so harsh on C=.
IMHO you seriously underestimating BOM cost for A500 - floppy drive cost more than 50$ during this time, RAM was way more expensive etc - you can't extrapolate present semiconductor situation to end of 80's.
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Old 18 February 2018, 02:03   #51
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But this is not a computer and all you can do is play audio disc.
my point was, that they all faced the same costs for a large proportion of the product (even shipping and so on). The only real difference in production cost is the >100$ mainboard.

Quote:
IMHO C= was profitable on all Amiga products - real C= loss was PC clones - at some point C= was pushed out of PC market with stock full of produced PC.
This is serious loss - PC market collapsed due cheap clones and large companies such as C= was unable to compete.
true.
I still wonder: when would have been the best point in time, to sell the PC-department?
(they were quite successful in the late 80s especially in Germany where C= even outsold IBM in some years)


Quote:
CDTV and A570 was low volume product never intended to be large scale. I would be not so harsh on C=.
sure they where low volume - but not by intention AFAIK.
That is the first time i hear of such a thing. Can you back this up somehow?

Quote:
IMHO you seriously underestimating BOM cost for A500 - floppy drive cost more than 50$ during this time
the CDTV had no floppy. (at least not in 91. Later there was a bundle with floppy and keyboard)
so the cost of a floppy is irrelevant, or even proves my point:
the bare mainbord was cheap.

Quote:
, RAM was way more expensive
not any longer. we are talking 91 now. 1MB is down to >40$ (for end customers!).

Quote:
etc - you can't extrapolate present semiconductor situation to end of 80's.

I am very well aware of all the prices back than.
I have done quite some research on this matter. (besides my own memory)

Last edited by Gorf; Yesterday at 20:06.
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Old 18 February 2018, 13:50   #52
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@pandy71 I think Gorf is correct, if you look at the price of the A500 plus on its release 399 seemed fair. Yet those that bought A500's back in the late 80's and paid 499, would never believed that it would be possible to acquire an upgraded machine, for 100 less.

Prices were reducing all the time, because that is technology evolution for you. It always starts out pricey and gets lower and lower.< This is so that everyone can get a piece of the action, not just competing with other manufactures/suppliers etc. It also helps sales!

CDROM's where scare's back in the day, my first CDROM Amiga was the CD32 back in 1993 and then an Infinitive Amiga 1200 Phase 5 Blizzard MKVI in 1997/98. <It was a x4 CDROM at that! XPC unit! Incidentally, I still own that computer!

The only items that never really budged on price was Amiga accelerators, I remember buying my first Phase 5 Blizzard MKIV in 1997/98 for 159.95. Seems cheap compared with what that card could command nowadays, doesn't it? Funny how prices can change in both directions, given enough time!
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Old 18 February 2018, 15:27   #53
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IMHO C= was profitable on all Amiga products - real C= loss was PC clones - at some point C= was pushed out of PC market with stock full of produced PC.
Actually, the CDTV was a costly endeavour for Commodore. Since it sold much less than expected, Commodore ended up with an inventory of useless custom CD drives and outstanding orders for more drives which had to be repaid to the manufacturer.
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Old 18 February 2018, 18:16   #54
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An other A3000 feature: SoftKick

Sadly not all models do have this feature, but mine has: it loads it's Kickstart from HD into fast RAM. That makes it faster and way more flexible of course.
You can also load the Kickstart from floppy ;-)

I think every Amiga with HD should have handled it this way, since it makes updates and handling of different versions so much easier...

Last edited by Gorf; Yesterday at 20:10.
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Old 18 February 2018, 21:01   #55
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The ACA1221EC has that feature and it seriously increases boot time on an A1200 with HD, motor or solid. Very useful even if it does allocate 1MB of the Fast Ram to do so. A3K again shows that it is a very versatile machine already having this feature!
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Old Yesterday, 19:03   #56
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OK! yet an other A3000 feature:

The A3000 has some battery buffered NVRAM.
It is tiny and you can only store a few bytes, but it comes in handy for SCSII parameters, that will speed up your drive.

It could probably be used for more things, like password protection, or setting the boot priorities ... but one would need a special early-bootup-rom supporting this.
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Old Today, 13:46   #57
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Another feature of the A3000 is that you will always bleed somewhere after doing any service on it. Accessing the motherboard involves dismantling half the computer, then trying to puzzle together all the metal profiles in the correct way. Even if you just want to test something, you must replace the daughterboard, the drive tray and PSU.

SCSI termination hidden beneath all this also makes it very flexible.
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Old Today, 14:03   #58
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Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
Another feature of the A3000 is that you will always bleed somewhere after doing any service on it. Accessing the motherboard involves dismantling half the computer, then trying to puzzle together all the metal profiles in the correct way. Even if you just want to test something, you must replace the daughterboard, the drive tray and PSU.

SCSI termination hidden beneath all this also makes it very flexible.
Two left hands?

Hmm - i newer had problems with that. The case itself slides open very conveniently and the drive-tray is easy to lift off.
The daughter board stays in place all the time.
(I left the most stress unscrewed... it is stable enough with just a few or almost none)
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