AROS in day-to-day use - can you use it as an Amiga NG system?

[knightbeat]

I've started this topic to separate out some of the AROS discussion in the Next gen Amiga thread, which has moved on to other topics.

Galahad lists AROS as a possible option for a cheap Next gen 'Amiga' platform. The prevailing view was that AROS offers an excellent alternative to AmigaOS4 and MorphOS, but it has less support and mind share than the other two platforms and is therefore less appealing. I'm starting this thread to consider if this is true.

AROS seems to be the most versatile of the Amiga-like operating systems, capable of running ported software, Linux applications (via the host) and legacy Amiga 68k software (via UAE) on a range of a range of commodity hardware. It's open source, which means that it's not tied to a single company that will go bust or feel the need to sue its competitors, and offers preliminary support for new functionality such as multicore. It's not a perfect solution - driver support seems to be limited and support is dependent upon a small number of developers, but it's a good basis for development.

So why doesn't AROS have a larger mindshare in the Amiga world? Stephen Jones champions it on his YouTube channel, but I've not heard of anyone using it on a day-to-day basis and AROS development attracts less attention than OS4.1 and MorphOS. I'd like to know:

1. Do you use AROS on a regular basis? If so, for what?
2. What is the best way to run AROS? As a hosted environment or on real hardware? On x64/x86 or other platforms?
3. What are the pros & cons of using AROS in comparison to other Amiga-like operating systems?

[Valken]

Looking forward to a tutorial and the "discussions"...

[Bastich]

I tried it years and years ago. I think at the tme it only supported system friendly applications. If there is a built in emulsion system for native Amiga games now I may have another look. It certainly was a very clever idea.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Meanwhile, AROS in addition to having the Distro ready and well configured It is distributed in multiple versions AROS x86 ABIv0 (currently used by the distro IcarOS, AspireOS and AROS Broadway), AROS x86 ABIv1 (the future) and finally AROS 68k. IcarOS integrates AmiBridge for the implementation of classic Amiga applications, there is also a version of WinUAE for AROS.

Something about AmiBridge (IcarOS)
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AspireOS
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AROS 68k
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Important note, AROS it can be installed on a Laptop if supported uses Audio Card, Video Card 3D, Wireless Network and LAN Network

My Acer has the hardwsre is totally
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[MartinW]

One problem with Aros from my completely uninformed point of view is actually highlighted in your first paragraph @AMIGASYSTEM. I've looked in the past and didn't really know where to start and which version to try and download / install.

I have (had!) an Acer Revo so I tried installing on that but sadly the hardware failed before I got to the point of reliably booting Aros.

I don't recall if this is the OS that I tried hosted on linux but if it was then I didn't really like the feel of doing that. It was probably just my personal taste however.

From what I've seen of Aros it looks very interesting and I'd still like to try it some day but on bare metal, not via an emulator or host layer. And for me that means buying new hardware because I've tried booting it on both of the PCs I have around here and it wouldn't boot on them. Sadly buying new hardware for it isn't high on the list of things to do.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

My advice is to assemble a PC with the right hardware, some useful links to the purpose

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/P...ete_System_HCL

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/P...x86_installing

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/P...PCI_54mbit.2Fs

[MartinW]

Doesn't really help all that much to be honest. By the time you cross reference what is on the HCL with what you can actually buy (in stock, not sold out) it seems to be a very small list. Once you add complications like networking, sound and video it seems to be a minefield.

I know it is the very lazy way but what it needs is for people to put together a list of known working, can buy off the shelf components and keep it up to date. A bit like the OSX86 scene.

Otherwise it's back to picking a version to download, burn it to CD / USB and see if you can get anything in your house to boot with the media.

It just occurred to me that I have a HP Microserver that is due for retirement. I wonder what components that has in it? It's running Win 2012 Server Core at the moment and has in the past run Linux (well), VMWare (well) and OSX (not so well). Might be worth at least looking up what's in it.

[remotenemesis]

Well, I'm developing a Mastodon* client in AROS that I plan to also port to AOS4 at some point. I'm kinda working on this most days so I guess that counts?

Running in a VirtualBox VM on macOS X (great but no sound), although this weekend I did install AROS in an Acer AspireOne ZG5 I picked up for next to nothing on ebay.

Can't speak too much to emulation although I did try running the "Fall" demo from Revision this year and it ran pretty well.

I've not used AmigaOS4 or MorphOS yet so AROS is definitely the best Amiga NG OS I've used!

The ICAROS distribution has a live CD so you can easily see if it boots on your x86 hardware, or try it in a virtualbox VM.

*Mastodon is a federated open-source social-network, somewhat similar to twitter except that user accounts belong to instances and instances can choose which others they wish to share content with. In practice it's somewhere between community-scale twitter and internet chat rooms of old.

[AdvanceFollow]

Originally Posted by MartinW

Doesn't really help all that much to be honest. By the time you cross reference what is on the HCL with what you can actually buy (in stock, not sold out) it seems to be a very small list. Once you add complications like networking, sound and video it seems to be a minefield.

I know it is the very lazy way but what it needs is for people to put together a list of known working, can buy off the shelf components and keep it up to date. A bit like the OSX86 scene.

Otherwise it's back to picking a version to download, burn it to CD / USB and see if you can get anything in your house to boot with the media.

It just occurred to me that I have a HP Microserver that is due for retirement. I wonder what components that has in it? It's running Win 2012 Server Core at the moment and has in the past run Linux (well), VMWare (well) and OSX (not so well). Might be worth at least looking up what's in it.

Building an AROS machine does seem to require a bit more research, as well as trial and error to find compatible hardware. Of course, the total cost even including a few mis-purchased, incompatible items like network/sound cards etc. is still much, much lower than the total cost of an AmigaOS4 machine, but it's inconvenient and confusing for new users. It would be very frustrating to build an entire system from new parts, only to find it simply won't boot...

I have an old Phenom II CPU and Asus motherboard, as well as an old GTX 460 video card laying around. Keep thinking I should try to assemble them into an AROS system but haven't gotten around to it yet.

[ptyerman]

A Geforce 9800GTX is the best supported video card, I have one in my Aros box and it works well. Geforce 4 is also well supported. I got the 9800GTX off eBay for £5 inc p+p.
Wired network is best supported by a Realtek 8139 for 10/100, I believe the 8169 may be supported now for 10/100/1000 but haven't tried one. I'm happy with the 8139 which can be purchased new for a couple of quid.
Sound card is best supported by a Soundblaster Live or one of the C-Media chipset cards, mine has a Soundblaster Live and works well.
I've installed Icaros and Aros on many different motherboard/CPU combo's with different chipsets and not come across many problems, the biggest was SATA not being detected on a Intel board but it didn't matter as I used the IDE ports anyway.
It is very easy to put a Aros box together as long as you stick to these components.

[Sinphaltimus]

I have a lot of legacy hardware laying around And never once got a decent working icaros, broadway or aros install to work with 68k integration. Always with the grey screen when trying to set workbench screenmode to match. Several different desktop configurations and at least 6 different laptops. Always the same issue.

Fishing for old hardware just for this seems an effort in futility unless you're a die hard tinkerer. Sure you can go fish around for all known working hardware but isn't that the same as a proprietary system? Not worth the effort any longer for me. X86 implies inclusivity. Not a very narrow niche.

If developers ever jump on board and get this off the ground with a wide range of hw support (even with generic drivers) then I may revisit. Otherwise seems a waste of time.

I feel the same way about Amithlon/AmigaOSXL. Unless you can compile your own core or know the steps to inject the newest core into the installer, crap out of luck.

A lot of great effort to bring 68k to x86 but they all fall flat except for winuae emulation. Even rPi solutions are futher along but not necessarily "NextGen".

If you want a true next gen Amiga on x86, wait for it to run on everything linux can run on. Then maybe the correct path will manifest itself.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Originally Posted by ptyerman

the biggest was SATA not being detected on a Intel board but it didn't matter as I used the IDE ports anyway.

Tried IDE or AHCI mode?

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Originally Posted by Sinphaltimus

Fishing for old hardware just for this seems an effort in futility unless you're a die hard tinkerer. Sure you can go fish fit all known working hardware but isn't that the same as a proprietary system? Not worth the effort. Any longer for me. X86 implies including. Not a very narrow nitch.

Apart from the fact that AROS also works very modern hardware and you can do it too Dual-boot Win7/AROS (see my video).There are many laptops vets that give them away or cost very little, for sure you spend a lot more one Vampire where you can not surf on the internet at certain levels, you can not watch HQ videos at high resolutions, you can not play with 3D games and you can not do many things that can be done on AROS, as well as having an operating system and modern applications.


Dual Boot AROS/Windows7
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[Sinphaltimus]

I'm sure the effort you put in and your love of it makes it worthwhile for you. Like I said, I have given this a try many, many times on a wide range of x85 hardware. And asked for help along the way. Still, no working AROS in any flavor with 68k integration. Sure I got it to work without the 68K stuff but that defeats the purpose unless you want to bury the old for good. Nothing you can show me or tell me will change my real world experience. Been there done that moving on.

Want to change my mind? What is the fix for the grey screen when trying to run the workbench screenmode to match AROS?

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Ok everyone has his choices, i do not want to convince anyone, my only one love is Amiga in all facets and i have no preference for anyone, but when i said about AROS it's all true and verifiable, You have been unlucky, i have so many PCs supported.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Originally Posted by Sinphaltimus

Want to change my mind? What is the fix for the grey screen when trying to run the workbench screenmode to match AROS?

I do not emulate Amiga 68k on AROS I prefer to do it with WinUAE or Amilator, as soon as WinUAE for AROS will be available for all then I will try to emulate the 68k on AROS, or i will use AROS 68k directly.

[Sinphaltimus]

Originally Posted by AMIGASYSTEM

I do not emulate Amiga 68k on AROS I prefer to do it with WinUAE or Amilator, as soon as WinUAE for AROS will be available for all then I will try to emulate the 68k on AROS, or i will use AROS 68k directly.

If I didn't "want" 68k integration then Icaros works fine as far as I could tell - so yes, to each their own flavor.

Fair enough.

Without 68k, then it works. I just never gave it much of a chance after not getting 68k to work. I was looking for an x86 way to replace Amiga if possible.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

As shown in the video, on the AROS 68k works, you saw the video attached above?, i propose again. Of course it will improve with WinUAE but 68k emulation, however, it's not perfect even on OS4 and MOS.

[ Show youtube player ]

[ptyerman]

Originally Posted by AMIGASYSTEM

Tried IDE or AHCI mode?

No of course not, I just sat there with a blank stare while scratching my arse!
Like I said, it didn't matter anyway as I was using the IDE ports anyway.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by knightbeat

3. What are the pros & cons of using AROS in comparison to other Amiga-like operating systems?

Easy install

Ok, that seems a little bit unfair since the other systems support only a very limited number of hardware. But a fully working VirtualBox image would be really nice!
(live CDs or DVDs are out)

Hardware support

that is part of the install problem as well of course, but full support for VirtualBox or VMware and kvm VirtIO would help dramatically!

I know: who is going to write all that drivers. A solution might be rump-kernel (reusing netbsd-kernel-drivers as user-level programs on various systems!)

Visible speed

AROS ist not slow. But sometimes is looks slow. Especially Wanderer.
The AORS 68K video above is a good example for that - WINUAE 060 with JIT and gfx card the original workbench just flies ... on Wanderer you can watch the windows slowly constructing...

That is not only true for 68K. Even on x86 or x64 Wanderer (especially with windows decoration) is much slower as it should be. DOpus Magellan or Scalos are quicker but somewhat outdated or unstable.

polished desktop

Aros got Wanderer, DOpus Magellan and Scalos to choose from ... but none is really polished. Each has different strengths and weaknesses and as a user I wished someone would take the best parts from each and provide a overall better desktop experience. (As a developer I know that a total rewrite is probably faster.)
Ambient is doing a really good job there on MorphOS.
(Ambient itself is open source, but I don't know how much is missing to provide a fully usable port...)

IDE

Here again AOS4 and MorphOS have more to offer. A fully working and integrated development system for AROS would be great.
Since it is open source, it should provide a preconfigured setup to compile every system element and AROS itself.
Other open source software for AROS should be accessible via a system analogue to ports (bsd), brew (macOS) or emerge (linux).


Stability

Sadly every distribution I tried had one or the other software on board that would lead to a reproducible crash. Often things like demos or games, one does not really need anyways. So it was not really tested or it was more important to add more stuff than care for stability.

As we all know Amiga-like systems are easy to crash.
So Aros would need some support for sandboxing and maybe partial memory protection (see mmu.library).
I am huge fan of a single-address-spaces OS. For me that is a feature and not a mistake. To run unstable programs or to test and debug new software sandboxing ist the right way!



Now: how can we archive all that?