50 hz 60 hz stuttering?

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by ancalimon

I have set my Windows resolution to 1440*900-60hz and started WinUAE (WB is set to 1680*1050-60Hz). To my surprise things are smooth as soon as my Workbench screen loads. So would the fix for this be easy?

It is quite stupid issue, mode switching detects same resolution = fullscreen mode is not changed (ignores frequency setting). "Should" be easy to fix..

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Legacy vsync:
+ More compatible.
- High latency (3+ frames).
- Not compatible with fastest possible/JIT modes.
- 100% CPU usage.
- Slow recovery after missed frame.

I have done some changes in my A500 config. setup and now use Scanlines Line Mode in order to not use anymore Resolution autoswitch that makes a sound switching problem on my PC/Laptop (and that is now not important anymore).

With Scanlines mode I also decided to use Legacy VSync and got a very nice results ... much better screen looking without any noticeable tearing what is now very close to my real A500.

So now would like to know what is the difference btw. Legacy VSync and Legacy VS, 50/60Hz ?


ps.
- 100% CPU usage you mentioned above ...

WinUAE does showing 100% CPU but a real CPU usage I newer got even near 100% ... it is running btw. 18-85% on my old 2.13Ghz Pent.M CPU and this mostly depends what is happening on screen.

Also with Legacy VSync ON a WinUAE shows 59.x FPS, but when it start to running a sound than it drops to 49.x FPS (almost never below) and range it sometime till 54.x FPS.
Hope this is normal behaving as I am very satisfied with current new A500 setup.

[Ambermoon]

This whole 50/60Hz issue with most LCDs is the worst thing that could ever happen display wise, and it's completely incomprehensible. I can't even imagine why LCD manufacturers don't allow more panels to operate at 50/100Hz. Shouldn't be too hard, considering that each and every TV sold in Europe and other parts of the world is perfectly capable of this. The only thing that comes to mind is that it costs them a few cents less this way, but that is most likely a ridiculous amount...

And while on a desktop PC one has at least the chance of buying a 50Hz monitor, the laptop world looks very grim in this regard.

/rant off

That being said, it might be worth considering a frame interpolation filter based on motion analysis similar to what TVs do for framerate doubling to get rid of this issue. Well, to a degree at least. While such algorithms are capable of doing smooth interpolation from 50 to 60Hz, they usually introduce their own set of slight artifacts, of course, and unfortunately add two or three frames extra latency. But at least the output would be smooth again. In many cases I could live better with those artifacts than with the stutter, I guess.

There are AVISynth scripts available for realtime video processing, so open source implementations of the technique do seem to exist. Eats a lot of processing power, but is capable of processing at least 720p/25 content on an older quad core, so typical Amiga gaming resolutions at 50Hz, even if upscaled by a factor of two before processing should prove no problem for most modern PCs.

Might at least be worth a look.

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

So now would like to know what is the difference btw. Legacy VSync and Legacy VS, 50/60Hz ?

50Hz/60Hz = vsync rate follows Amiga PAL/NTSC mode automatically.

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

50Hz/60Hz = vsync rate follows Amiga PAL/NTSC mode automatically.

Thanks, but for now cant see any difference between Legacy VSync and Legacy VS, 50/60Hz ... maybe internally something happens but visually its still same behaving.

What would be the best test case to see a difference ?

EDIT:
I am using WinUAE2700b6, Quickstart A500 (most common), window res. 752x576, Scanlines, Direct3D, Filter None, No scalling, Horiz/Vert size FS and Direct sound/sound buffer size 5 settings ... Also have Nvidia driver vertical sync set to Application-controlled.

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Thanks, but for now cant see any difference between Legacy VSync and Legacy VS, 50/60Hz ... maybe internally something happens but visually its still same behaving.

What would be the best test case to see a difference ?

Early boot menu, press space to switch PAL/NTSC

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Early boot menu, press space to switch PAL/NTSC

Tried on A1200 config ... screen res. switches btw NTSC or PAL but still see no diff. ?! What should take attention on exactly ?!

EDIT:
What you suggest is better to use on my settings ... Legacy VSync or Legacy VS, 50/60Hz ?! Thanks

ps.
Sorry, as I still cant get it, probably I must be blind so miss something important cause of too high temps we have these days.

[Toni Wilen]

Does your monitor on screen display show matching refresh rate when you press SPACE to switch between PAL/NTSC in early boot menu? (Also make sure you have at least ECS Agnus configured)

50Hz and PAL and 60Hz NTSC.

Your vsync may not be actually working if FPS value changes.. It should be rock solid 60Hz or 50Hz. Check your display driver control panel, legacy vsync won't work if vsync setting is forced off.

Logs needed for better debugging.

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Does your monitor on screen display show matching refresh rate when you press SPACE to switch between PAL/NTSC in early boot menu? (Also make sure you have at least ECS Agnus configured)

50Hz and PAL and 60Hz NTSC.

I am using a PC/Laptop with its LCD display, so I have no monitor on screen display. It has fixed display on 60Hz in Nvidia driver.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/Fujits..._Laptop_review

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Your vsync may not be actually working if FPS value changes.. It should be rock solid 60Hz or 50Hz.

Well, probably is not working as I got in both cases FPS 59.x in WinUAE.
Only when sound start than FPS drops on FPS 49.x in WinUAE.

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Check your display driver control panel, legacy vsync won't work if vsync setting is forced off.

I turned vsync OFF in Nvidia driver and tried Overdose demo ... notice no tearing on screen so it probably still works.

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Logs needed for better debugging.

What exactly you want me to test for debugging ?

EDIT:
Logs while testing demo Overdose-Delight, Nvidia vsync OFF and WinUAE Legacy VS, 50/60Hz.

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

50Hz/60Hz = vsync rate follows Amiga PAL/NTSC mode automatically.

I have disable sound 'automatic switching' and now got 49.x for PAL and 59.x for NTSC. (even with Nvidia driver vsync set to OFF)

(Before with sound 'automatic switching' enabled I always got 59.x on PAL or NTSC. Only when sound was playing I have got 49.x FPS.)


ps. I found this reading http://eab.abime.net/support-winuae/...next-step.html on 1st post, Step 2: set your WinUAE configuration (quote):

"sound
o disable 'automatic switching' (my guess is this resets the synchronization buffer, which in turn shifts the position of the screen tearing. We don't want that in this case)."

[Toni Wilen]

Vsync means display refresh rate matches internal refresh rate. You can't even have vsync on at 50Hz if your display don't support 50Hz.

You only have display driver vsync enabled but emulator itself still runs whatever rate emulated Amiga runs. It "works" but it don't make any sense, and it can only work in "legacy vsync" mode because emulator assumes matching rates, it can't detect if rate is correct. (And depending on hardware, you may get very slow performance)

"low latency" detects rate which cause increase speed (and sound pitch) because it detects 60Hz and then syncs with display.

Enable triple buffer option if you only need tear-free display.

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Vsync means display refresh rate matches internal refresh rate. You can't even have vsync on at 50Hz if your display don't support 50Hz.

Well, maybe I forgot to mention that changes are noticeable on WinUAE FPS.

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

You only have display driver vsync enabled but emulator itself still runs whatever rate emulated Amiga runs. It "works" but it don't make any sense, and it can only work in "legacy vsync" mode because emulator assumes matching rates, it can't detect if rate is correct. (And depending on hardware, you may get very slow performance)

Maybe its don't make any sense but I didnt notice any slow performance with Legacy VSync ON and sound Automatic switching OFF. But what I notice is no tearing at all. Wired!

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Enable triple buffer option if you only need tear-free display.

When enabled Legacy VSync its automatically set on double buffering. But afraid that using tripple buffering can produce higher latency !


EDIT:
My new WinUAE config.:
WinUAE2700b6, Quickstart A500 (most common), window res. 752x576, Scanlines, Legacy VSync, Direct3D, Filter None, No scalling, Horiz/Vert size FS and Direct sound/sound buffer size 5 settings/Automatic switching OFF, Nvidia driver vertical sync set to Application-controlled.

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

My new WinUAE config.:
WinUAE2700b6, Quickstart A500 (most common), window res. 752x576, Scanlines, Legacy VSync, Direct3D, Filter None, No scalling, Horiz/Vert size FS and Direct sound/sound buffer size 5 settings/Automatic switching OFF, Nvidia driver vertical sync set to Application-controlled.

I have done some testing with above configuration running WB1.3 boot screen (and Dexion-BeyondJustice demo / Vertical pipe bars) ... and this is my findings:


Changing Vsync , Buffering ... Results WB1.3 boot screen CPU/FPS , PC task manager CPU usage , (Dexion-BeyondJustice demo / Vertical pipe bars)

No vsync , Triple buffering ... CPU 44-52% / FPS 49.x , PC CPU usage 33-41% , (no tearing noticeable) --> but too high PC CPU usage!

No vsync , Double buffering ... CPU 29-31% / FPS 49.x , PC CPU usage 33-41% , (tearing noticeable)

No vsync , No buffering ... CPU 29-31% / FPS 49.x , PC CPU usage 33-41% , (tearing noticeable)

Legacy vsync , Triple buffering ... CPU 100-101% / FPS 49.x-53.x , PC CPU usage 19-33% , (no tearing noticeable) --> but after more testing I choose this one!

Legacy vsync , Double buffering ... CPU 100-101% / FPS 49.x-53.x , PC CPU usage 19-33% , (no tearing noticeable) --> this was my 1st choice!


EDIT:
After some more testing of demos and playing game like Jim Power I didnt noticed any latency using Legacy VSync/Triple buffering but only better/smother scrolling without any performance loss, so I decided to use this instead of my previous 1st choice with double buffering.

Also, if one would like to check how this configuration works on his/her PC/Laptop, I have attached the configuration file ... would be good to see if this config possibly work on your computer too without problems like great performance loss ...!?

Note: I have use it with enabled Nvidia driver vertical sync set to Application-controlled!