AROS in day-to-day use - can you use it as an Amiga NG system?

[MartinW]

Hi Wawa - thanks for taking the time to stop by this thread (and Amigasystem for relaying the message about registration )

I'll post more tomorrow as I don't really have time tonight. Just for now, I still don't see pre-built contrib binaries for linux-x86_64, just i386. Would they work? I don't know. Last night I built the source of contrib as far as it would compile but it wouldn't complete. What was there was about a 50/50 mix of working flawlessly and crashing badly.

But again, let me just re-iterate that it's more than likely me. I took a wild guess on some of the configure parameters for my build.

For what it's worth I saw something written by you somewhere, I don't recall if it was a post on Aros-exec or somewhere else that made more sense on the subject of building / cross compiling than a lot of the documentation put together. The problem is that it's been a mad week where I've read and consumed so much that I don't recall where I saw all of it.

More when I get a bit more time...

[EDIT] Just re-reading your post up there you've already linked to the post I am referring to about building.

[hth313]

Originally Posted by Gorf

for fans of 1.3 style WB (and flat design) I would suggest something like this here:

(Window titel-bar is a little bit too high - scrollbar too wide... but I like the direction this concept shows...)

I like it a lot! It would be great if AROS (or anything else) could look like this. I also agree with your comments.

[hth313]

I tried AROS Icaros Live a few weeks ago, but felt quite lost on what to do after starting it. Not so much information around on what to do, and it did not look so appealing to me. I fiddled around and found a boing demo (I think it was), tried it and it just crashed. That was the end of it for me, for the moment at least.

It would be nice if it could run and be stable on AArch64, like a Raspberry Pi. It is really low cost hardware and perhaps a more controlled environment.

This 24 core AArch64 box could perhaps be a step-up from the Raspberry Pi, https://www.socionext.com/en/product...ynQuacer/Edge/ now that AROS has SMP. I do not fancy running AROS in a VirtualBox and I do not really want to mess with any x86 stuff unless forced to either. I guess others will have very different opinions...

[Gorf]

Love that 24-core board, but it is definitely overkill :-)
And $1200 are simply too much to play around...

But there are so many of this so called "96boads". How about this one for $99:
https://www.96boards.org/product/rock960/

(Dual Cortex-A72 + quad Cortex-A53 CPU.
Packed with 4GB of RAM, 32GB of on board eMMC storage, USB 3.1 type C with DP, Mali T860MP4 GPU with HDMI 2.0 with 4K output, 4 lane M.2 PCI-E 2.1)

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Originally Posted by hth313

I tried AROS Icaros Live a few weeks ago, but felt quite lost on what to do after starting it. Not so much information around on what to do, and it did not look so appealing to me. I fiddled around and found a boing demo (I think it was), tried it and it just crashed. That was the end of it for me, for the moment at least.

Before judging one must know and try !

[MartinW]

I must admit, I suffered many crashes but the boing ball demo was not one of them. Sounds like a graphics related issue to me. But I wasn't for the most part using Icaros but rather Aros System.

Going back a moment to the comments made by Wawa, in particular the interest in feedback, should I start a new thread somewhere? I feel like it's dragging this thread off-topic a bit much and I'm not sure how much interest there really is in how I get on

Talking of which, work has kept me busy until late at night so far. I hope to take another look at Aros later in the week, or if not at the weekend. That does depend a little on if I can drag myself away from the sun. Don't see it very often here.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Thank you MartinW, I hope as soon as possible to test some of your work, maybe it would be right to open a specific discussion.
Here to me (Italy of the South Puglia-Salento) there is a lot of sun and wind, many started to swim in the sea.

[hth313]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Love that 24-core board, but it is definitely overkill :-)
And $1200 are simply too much to play around...

But there are so many of this so called "96boads". How about this one for $99:
https://www.96boards.org/product/rock960/

(Dual Cortex-A72 + quad Cortex-A53 CPU.
Packed with 4GB of RAM, 32GB of on board eMMC storage, USB 3.1 type C with DP, Mali T860MP4 GPU with HDMI 2.0 with 4K output, 4 lane M.2 PCI-E 2.1)

There seems to be many interesting AArch64 boards to choose from at various price levels that are not going to break the bank for most people.

I would like to see more focus on something that has a future. I do not want a virtual machine and I prefer something that is fun and affordable. The AArch64 seems to hit a sweet spot for me at least.

I guess the alternative would be a new 68K ASIC and continuing on the 3.1 code base. But dream on, it will not happen with the current state of affairs. Maybe it is time to leave all that behind and look ahead instead?

[Valken]

Originally Posted by hth313

...

It would be nice if it could run and be stable on AArch64, like a Raspberry Pi. It is really low cost hardware and perhaps a more controlled environment.

This 24 core AArch64 box could perhaps be a step-up from the Raspberry Pi, https://www.socionext.com/en/product...ynQuacer/Edge/ now that AROS has SMP. I do not fancy running AROS in a VirtualBox and I do not really want to mess with any x86 stuff unless forced to either. I guess others will have very different opinions...

Very cool in a nerdy way, but for the money, any old Intel Skylake or Kabylake CPU (dual, quad, or hexcore) OVERCLOCKED to 5+ GHZ will eat that for lunch at a better value since you can also do other things with it.

It's the old MHZ vs Cores argument and even TODAY, not much REALLY uses more than 4 cores, 8 threads unless we are talking about server or back end type systems.

I am more excited about Apple's announcement for their NEXT CPU after x86. That may be the platform to rejuvenate the Amiga albeit will be premium compared to cheapo PC's.

[MartinW]

Originally Posted by Valken

I am more excited about Apple's announcement for their NEXT CPU after x86. That may be the platform to rejuvenate the Amiga albeit will be premium compared to cheapo PC's.

Is that anything more than speculation? I sincerely hope they don't abandon x86 to go their own way as I love MacOS but that will probably be the final nail in the coffin if they do. They have systematically dropped directly supporting a lot of things, two examples: Java and X11 and pushed them back to the original teams. That was probably the right thing to do given Apple machines used an architecture that was common with a large part of the industry. To then go their own way though means that we are then back at the mercy of those teams having to play catchup with information that they may or may not get in a timely fashion.

I'm usually OK with a lot of things that Apple do, but in this regard I just wish they'd focus elsewhere for now. What with PPC->Rosetta->x86 it feels like they just LIKE being in a state of change. My USB C only MacBok Pro is laughable with all the dongles sticking out, but it's fine and I understand the need to try to move on.

[Dunny]

Apple are in the process of dropping x86 right now, very soon no apps will be allowed unless they're x64.

And as they're gearing up their own chip fabrication at a frightening rate (7nm now!) it won't be long before they're able to compete with intel and possibly surpass them with an ARM-based design.

And it's not as if they don't have a history of dropping hardware or architectures when it suits them.

[Valken]

Well if you watch Apple very closely regarding HW updates, its about time. X86 in Mac is what, 8 years old now? And what else has Intel done for the past 15-20 years other than give users 10-15% more per core? They are really sitting on their arse milking the consumer.

Apple IS also developing / making their own ARM type chips. That is like 50% or more of their market already - iOS - mobile, tablets, watches, Apple TV, etc...

x86 is on desktop, servers, laptops (not tablets) and iMacs (laptop with BIG screen).

So it makes sense for Apple to put their own CPU into everything from a business perspective IF their AX cpu can get close to current/upcoming x86/x64 CPUs.

Apple has always done really well pushing the user experience with new tech / toys even if they don't always workout in the market - firewire? They do have a lot of pull to preview NG type HW. They have to plan their product line out at least 2 years out.

I wonder how the Amiga could have been if they had Apple type support in the background... Amiga could be ruling it now... AmigaOS on Apple HW could be THE hobby OS for Mac heads and others for the Amiga community. At least you know the HW will be fairly good.

[MartinW]

Originally Posted by Dunny

Apple are in the process of dropping x86 right now, very soon no apps will be allowed unless they're x64.

Yeah, sorry, I know that. I didn't mean the i386->x64 change. That's been rumbling on in the background for some time now. I meant the whole Arm thing.

I know there's a lot of speculation but was wondering if it is anything more than just that, speculation. I can see it from a business point of view, but...

Well, but nothing i guess. They have to keep making their billions. I can't really see how it benefits Aros much though (as per this thread). If I spent £1k+ on a new Apple machine I'd hardly be looking to wipe it and put Aros on it. And that's even if Apple permitted it which let's face it, if they make it anything like any of their other devices then they won't. it will be locked down tight.

[hth313]

Originally Posted by MartinW

Is that anything more than speculation? I sincerely hope they don't abandon x86 to go their own way as I love MacOS but that will probably be the final nail in the coffin if they do. They have systematically dropped directly supporting a lot of things, two examples: Java and X11 and pushed them back to the original teams. That was probably the right thing to do given Apple machines used an architecture that was common with a large part of the industry. To then go their own way though means that we are then back at the mercy of those teams having to play catchup with information that they may or may not get in a timely fashion.

I'm usually OK with a lot of things that Apple do, but in this regard I just wish they'd focus elsewhere for now. What with PPC->Rosetta->x86 it feels like they just LIKE being in a state of change. My USB C only MacBok Pro is laughable with all the dongles sticking out, but it's fine and I understand the need to try to move on.

OT. For me the 2015 MacBook Pro I have now is probably the last Mac in a line of using them for 17 years. It has become too thin, and as a result the keyboard is too short stroke. Then the lack of a proper ESC key is most likely the final nail in the coffin for me. On top of that we have USB-C which is too early to judge. I cannot see any alternative than switching to Linux. I hope my current machine will last another couple of years as I am very happy with it.

The Mac fanboys may whine in Macrumors forums and hope Apple change their minds. But the fact is that once Apple go in a direction they never turn back and admit a mistake. They may say that they understand, but they will never do.

[hth313]

Originally Posted by Valken

Very cool in a nerdy way, but for the money, any old Intel Skylake or Kabylake CPU (dual, quad, or hexcore) OVERCLOCKED to 5+ GHZ will eat that for lunch at a better value since you can also do other things with it.

It's the old MHZ vs Cores argument and even TODAY, not much REALLY uses more than 4 cores, 8 threads unless we are talking about server or back end type systems.

I am more excited about Apple's announcement for their NEXT CPU after x86. That may be the platform to rejuvenate the Amiga albeit will be premium compared to cheapo PC's.

I understand your point, but I see it differently as I just want a machine that works. I do not fancy building machines and tinker with them, I just want to be able to go out and buy something ready that runs out of the box for small money. A Raspberry Pi is just that. That is a good starting point, then there are more powerful alternatives if I need that if I am prepared to pay more. Personally I see it as an asset if it is not x86, but I am in the minority here as most people do not care.

I also think a small box that I can put in my pocket has a value and a machine (that 24-core) which consumes 30W or so, being quite energy efficient is a nice thing. I can have such machine running around the clock doing continuous integrations and other duties without worrying so much about noice and electricity. It is not all about performance, I just want something that helps me get the work done without getting in the way.

Regarding multi-core, I think we will definitely see more of that coming as applications will make better use of it to boost performance. We are just in the beginning of it.

There is a window of opportunity now with AArch64 coming. We will see Linux on it, but there will probably not be the platform for macOS or Windows. Apple wants their own hardware and Windows is so tightly coupled with x86. Even if they do go there, I doubt Microsoft will be able to become as dominant there too even if they tried to.

AEROS looks interesting to me. If we can have Amiga on top of Debian, we may get the best of both worlds. The stability and Linux program base coupled with a different and better user interface layer. Something like macOS, but without having Apple owning and controlling us.

Problem is, how is it ever going to happen with the small resources there are.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

What does it has to do with it MAC OS with this discussion on AROS?, a little OT is fine, but now there is only discussion of MAC OS

[MartinW]

I think someone just suggested that if Apple move to Arm processors then they could be a good source of machines for Aros. But I'm not sure I agree because I don't really see anyone buying such an expensive item and then wanting to put Aros on it

But you're right, the topic is heading very OT. I was going to reply about my 2017 MBP but I will refrain

I might go and try building Aros again just to get back on topic a bit!

[Shadowfire]

I attempted to install ICAROS 2.2/native on two PC's I have here this past weekend; a Core2 Q6600 based system, and an i7-875k based system. On the Q66000 I tried both IDE and SATA hard drives; on the i7, I tried two different SATA hard drives.

Summary as follows:

The LiveCD would not fully boot when the CDROM was attached to the IDE bus; an SATA CDROM was required, otherwise it would pull up an AROS screen saying "Waiting for boot device".

HDToolBox on the LiveCD did not permit me to do any partitioning or make any changes, no matter what configuration. It certainly detected the presence of the hard disk on the appropriate device, but any attempt to change the partitioning was met with "Error 100" (IIRC) or "Disk Full". Even if I had just zeroed out the drive with Acronis True Image. Also, while it does show that there was one device present, it didn't mention what unit #, you need to pay attention during the Grub boot process to retrieve that information (unless there is some CLI command or utility on the CD that I don't know about which enumerates that information; ASSIGN and INFO don't show it). There is no virus protection option on these motherboards which would prevent overwriting the MBR area; Acronis true image was able to manipulate the MBR and zero it out without a problem.

LiveCD would not boot up in any mode other than Safe mode.

I would get SFS or FFS errors when attempting to install in any configuration. IDE hard disk, both ata.device drivers, or AHCI mode in the bios with the ahci.device. SFS partition, or FFS international partition, 2gig, 8 gig, 40gig, 1 gig, it didn't matter. Either machine, any hard disk.

Attempts to boot the liveCD on a 3rd machine (an i5-4690) resulted in no keyboard or mouse; USB obviously not supported on the motherboard.

Needless to say, I tossed the install cd and mentally made a note "check back in another two years". I probably spent 8-10 hours fiddlefarting around trying to get it to install.

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by MartinW

Yeah, sorry, I know that. I didn't mean the i386->x64 change. That's been rumbling on in the background for some time now. I meant the whole Arm thing.

I know there's a lot of speculation but was wondering if it is anything more than just that, speculation. I can see it from a business point of view, but...

I work for a multi-million dollar s/w company and we're gearing up for an imminent move from x64 to ARM (as in, when it happens we're prepared). So there's that, and we're not the only ones.

And I agree about AROS. The last thing you want to do with sh*t-hot hardware like that is hobble it with an OS like that.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Originally Posted by Shadowfire

HDToolBox on the LiveCD did not permit me to do any partitioning or make any changes, no matter what configuration..

You probably have not watched any of the videos I've attached. HDToolBox on AROS you do not have to use it è a completely different program from the version OS3 and difficult to use. To initialize a hard disk and partition use InstallAROS.

This is my test on Real PC on HDToolBox that shows its complexity
[ Show youtube player ]

I would get SFS or FFS errors when attempting to install in any configuration. IDE hard disk, both ata.device drivers, or AHCI mode in the bios with the ahci.device. SFS partition, or FFS international partition, 2gig, 8 gig, 40gig, 1 gig, it didn't matter. Either machine, any hard disk.

If you do not use a disk or partition RAW (anything RDB/MBR) and do not use InstallAROS to initialize and partition, you will never be able to install AROS, look at my attached videos.

N.B: anything RDB/MBR it is important, "Wipe Disk" it will automatically destroy the first partition, otherwise it will only use the available RAW partition and will not touch other installed partitions