MiSTer vs WinUAE - Page 2

Toni Wilen · 31 July 2020, 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ransom1122

Mister does not emulate as you are aware. Ifnlike to know some troublesome games/demo's I'd like to try on MiSTer if you know any?

Yes but programmer still needs to implement the behavior using existing documentation/test programs/etc. There is no schematics available that would help to make guaranteed 100% accurate implementation.

WinUAE forum should have 2 quite large threads, one for OCS/ECS and other for AGA demos with glitches. Most of them were due to undocumented/unknown features.

ransom1122 · 31 July 2020, 10:21

minimig (short for Mini Amiga) is an open source re-implementation of an Amiga using a field-programmable gate array (FPGA). Original minimig author is Dennis van Weeren.

Like I said I've thrown many different games and demo's everything behaves exactly like my real a500. I automatically feel like I'm playing a real amiga...

I've been trying to fault the mister amiga core trying to find something it can't do beside cd32 and all is perfect.

Toni Wilen · 31 July 2020, 10:45

If I checked correct minimig source, for example this intro "shouldn't" display 100% correctly: https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=63835

robinsonb5 · 31 July 2020, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ransom1122

Like I said I've thrown many different games and demo's everything behaves exactly like my real a500. I automatically feel like I'm playing a real amiga...

Sure - but it's still basically what would happen if someone built a new Amiga today just by copying observed behaviour, rather than working from the original plans and specs - and thus there will still be differences between Minimig and the real hardware.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

If I checked correct minimig source, for example this intro "shouldn't" display 100% correctly: https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=63835

I can confirm - the Scoopex logo fades to a solid block of colour instead of the background colour. (I don't yet have a MiSTer though - I've tested with the upstream AGA core) What's going on there? Some newly-discovered blitter quirk?

Toni Wilen · 31 July 2020, 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by robinsonb5

I can confirm - the Scoopex logo fades to a solid block of colour instead of the background colour. (I don't yet have a MiSTer though - I've tested with the upstream AGA core) What's going on there? Some newly-discovered blitter quirk?

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=227

ransom1122 · 31 July 2020, 12:29

I don't have access at the moment for that scoopex demo, can anyone upload it to zone

robinsonb5 · 31 July 2020, 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ransom1122

I don't have access at the moment for that scoopex demo, can anyone upload it to zone

Sure - done.

ransom1122 · 31 July 2020, 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by robinsonb5

Sure - done.

.exe ? Isn't this an amiga file? Adf or whdload?

Toni Wilen · 31 July 2020, 13:40

It is normal Amiga executable. Small single-file intros are usually distributed as executables.

ransom1122 · 31 July 2020, 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

It is normal Amiga executable. Small single-file intros are usually distributed as executables.

And are run as executables on pc only?

If so I'm looking for something that a quickstart amiga 500/1200 usually has troubles running under emulation to compare with mister.

Its getting late here anyway, I'll double check this thread tomorrow

malko · 31 July 2020, 14:09

I think I remember from another thread that you can set this "exe" as if it's an ADF and winUAE will boot it.

lesta_smsc · 31 July 2020, 15:08

To be honest. WinUAE has been fantastic. I ran Golden Axe with trainer in the beginning that has scrolling text. Could not tell the difference of having original hardware vs emulation side by side. Both hooked up to a CRT.

I'm only interested in gaming and to be fair, the games were low resolution built for TVs of that era so having VGA to scart outputting on graphics card at 15Khz means I get the pixel perfect resolution as the original hardware.

Cheaper than Mister and easy to configure.

robinsonb5 · 31 July 2020, 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesta_smsc

To be honest. WinUAE has been fantastic.

I certainly can't disagree with that - as one of the few developers actively working on Minimig currently, I have been known to use WinUAE rather than real hardware for reference!

Radertified · 01 August 2020, 04:03

My takeaway from this thread and some limited research is unless the core authors know something that Toni doesn't, an FPGA solution is not going to be better at emulating/simulating/whatever than UAE. It is likely to have the same quirks largely due to undocumented features.

The MiSTer's main use case would be ease of use, much like TheC64. Once it's setup, it's very much like a real Amiga in that you turn it on and it just works, even on modern displays. An added bonus is low input latency.

So MiSTer vs WinUAE depends on what you want out of it.

MiSTer is extremely convenient and is closer to the plug and play experience that the Amiga gives. If you want to setup an Amiga 500 or 1200 without screwing around, this will do it.

WinUAE can do everything that MiSTer can do plus much more due to its extensive customizability (accelerators, expansions, etc.). It also has a much more active codebase (thanks, Toni!) so when it comes to Amiga compatibility, this is where you want to be. The only drawback is it requires an OS that will almost certainly introduce lag however this can be minimized with some tweaking.

NovaCoder · 01 August 2020, 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by robinsonb5

I certainly can't disagree with that - as one of the few developers actively working on Minimig currently, I have been known to use WinUAE rather than real hardware for reference!

Cool

Any news of adding RTG (P96) support to the MiniMig core?

ransom1122 · 01 August 2020, 06:08

@Radertified When you experience fpga over emulation you will soon realise what your missing out on, that lag free, identical replica of Amiga

The bouncing ball bonus ik+ stage, I've managed to pretty much always finish it to the end with mister due to the lag free quick movements. Whereas under emulation, when those balls start going quick you soon realise there is lag with emulation..

I've got black belt with ik+ twice in one day yet with emualtion I don't recall doing it since I used it on my real amiga...

@NovaCoder Not that I'm aware of.. your best bet is to ask in the Mister Facebook page and or the mister official forum.. I would hope they implement cd support for official cd32 games and cd support for games like t-zer0 that use cd audio before they add rtg support.

Retro-Nerd · 01 August 2020, 06:59

Quote:

The bouncing ball bonus ik+ stage, I've managed to pretty much always finish it to the end with mister due to the lag free quick movements. Whereas under emulation, when those balls start going quick you soon realise there is lag with emulation..

Not with Beam Racing/Lagless Vsync enabled in WinUAE. It's fast/responsive enough for that.

Radertified · 01 August 2020, 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ransom1122

@Radertified When you experience fpga over emulation you will soon realise what your missing out on, that lag free, identical replica of Amiga

That's what I said

And as I also said, and as Retro-Nerd pointed out, WinUAE can be tweaked to be close to lag free too.

Software emulation does not mean it's not possible. The best example is BMC64 which gives lag free C64 emulation with Vice, and a boot time of a few seconds, on a Raspberry Pi 3! It's baremetal so the OS is absolutely minimal.

FPGA = A plug and play hardware based replica.
Emulation = Software based so it's going to be slower due to the OS.

Noone's disputing the merits of the MiSTer or the Amiga core. One day I'll definitely pick one up for myself. That said, if someone managed to get a baremetal UAE build for the Pi4, that would probably negate the need for Minimig, in my opinion.

ransom1122 · 01 August 2020, 08:53

Renaming 01_RunningManIntro_Fixed.exe to 01_RunningManIntro_Fixed.adf doesn't seem to boot on the mister with 500 or 1200 quickstart..

@Toni
Is it supposed too boot on a real Amiga? If so which type?

robinsonb5 · 01 August 2020, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by NovaCoder

Cool

Any news of adding RTG (P96) support to the MiniMig core?

Not yet - once I have a MiSTer to experiment with it shouldn't take too long, though; weeks rather than months, certainly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ransom1122

Renaming 01_RunningManIntro_Fixed.exe to 01_RunningManIntro_Fixed.adf doesn't seem to boot on the mister with 500 or 1200 quickstart..

@Toni
Is it supposed too boot on a real Amiga? If so which type?

A self-booting ADF is now in the Zone.

01 August 2020, 08:53	#39
ransom1122 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Omnicorp Age: 45 Posts: 5,813	Renaming 01_RunningManIntro_Fixed.exe to 01_RunningManIntro_Fixed.adf doesn't seem to boot on the mister with 500 or 1200 quickstart.. @Toni Is it supposed too boot on a real Amiga? If so which type? Last edited by ransom1122; 01 August 2020 at 09:15.

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31 July 2020, 10:21	#22
ransom1122 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Omnicorp Age: 45 Posts: 5,813	minimig (short for Mini Amiga) is an open source re-implementation of an Amiga using a field-programmable gate array (FPGA). Original minimig author is Dennis van Weeren. Like I said I've thrown many different games and demo's everything behaves exactly like my real a500. I automatically feel like I'm playing a real amiga... I've been trying to fault the mister amiga core trying to find something it can't do beside cd32 and all is perfect.

31 July 2020, 10:45	#23
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,507	If I checked correct minimig source, for example this intro "shouldn't" display 100% correctly: https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=63835

31 July 2020, 12:29	#26
ransom1122 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Omnicorp Age: 45 Posts: 5,813	I don't have access at the moment for that scoopex demo, can anyone upload it to zone

31 July 2020, 13:40	#29
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,507	It is normal Amiga executable. Small single-file intros are usually distributed as executables.

31 July 2020, 14:09	#31
malko Ex nihilo nihil Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: CH Posts: 4,860	I think I remember from another thread that you can set this "exe" as if it's an ADF and winUAE will boot it.

31 July 2020, 15:08	#32
lesta_smsc Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,174	To be honest. WinUAE has been fantastic. I ran Golden Axe with trainer in the beginning that has scrolling text. Could not tell the difference of having original hardware vs emulation side by side. Both hooked up to a CRT. I'm only interested in gaming and to be fair, the games were low resolution built for TVs of that era so having VGA to scart outputting on graphics card at 15Khz means I get the pixel perfect resolution as the original hardware. Cheaper than Mister and easy to configure.

01 August 2020, 04:03	#34
Radertified Registered User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: - Posts: 728	My takeaway from this thread and some limited research is unless the core authors know something that Toni doesn't, an FPGA solution is not going to be better at emulating/simulating/whatever than UAE. It is likely to have the same quirks largely due to undocumented features. The MiSTer's main use case would be ease of use, much like TheC64. Once it's setup, it's very much like a real Amiga in that you turn it on and it just works, even on modern displays. An added bonus is low input latency. So MiSTer vs WinUAE depends on what you want out of it. MiSTer is extremely convenient and is closer to the plug and play experience that the Amiga gives. If you want to setup an Amiga 500 or 1200 without screwing around, this will do it. WinUAE can do everything that MiSTer can do plus much more due to its extensive customizability (accelerators, expansions, etc.). It also has a much more active codebase (thanks, Toni!) so when it comes to Amiga compatibility, this is where you want to be. The only drawback is it requires an OS that will almost certainly introduce lag however this can be minimized with some tweaking.

01 August 2020, 06:08	#36
ransom1122 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Omnicorp Age: 45 Posts: 5,813	@Radertified When you experience fpga over emulation you will soon realise what your missing out on, that lag free, identical replica of Amiga The bouncing ball bonus ik+ stage, I've managed to pretty much always finish it to the end with mister due to the lag free quick movements. Whereas under emulation, when those balls start going quick you soon realise there is lag with emulation.. I've got black belt with ik+ twice in one day yet with emualtion I don't recall doing it since I used it on my real amiga... @NovaCoder Not that I'm aware of.. your best bet is to ask in the Mister Facebook page and or the mister official forum.. I would hope they implement cd support for official cd32 games and cd support for games like t-zer0 that use cd audio before they add rtg support.

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