Would you pay for a new Amiga game?

[Anakirob]

Originally Posted by Akira

Clearly don't understand your comment here, putting it together with a backbone game.

I have made an error. I apologise.

[edd_jedi]

Absolutely. I paid £15 for Thimbleweed Park and would happily pay a similar amount for a good native Amiga game.

[PortuguesePilot]

I would pay for an Amiga game, sure, but it would have to be an AAA tile, with a quality level akin to that seen in the last glorious days of the Amiga, like Lionheart or Chaos Engine. Pay for games like Tales of Gorluth or Lumberjack Reloaded? No. I'm sorry, your efforts are greatly appreciated and I do love your games, but they aren't worth the money (hence why they're great free, and praiseworthy for such, but I never bough any of them nor would I ever do so). The Amiga is the Amiga and has a recognised set of capabilities. For a game to be worth the money, it has to use those capabilities, or else I'll stick to the good old classics. Don't get me wrong, I love every little game that graces our Amiga and I recognise the right for any creator to charge money for their creation, but just as I recognise their right to charge money, I recognise my own right to choose not to pay. Games that are sub-par in terms of Amiga hardware that are for sale, I simply ignore as if they don't exist, which is a pity since the author had a considerable amount of work and it's not being appreciated. Free games, on the other had, have my utmost respect! Any of them, regardless of final quality. But when money is involved, I demand quality. Lot's of it. Give me a Dynablaster-like quality end product and you'll see the colour of my money (15€ tops, though. Don't come charging 60€ or something. That's PS4 value, ok?), else you won't see a dime. Sorry, but that's the cold, naked truth.

[Leffmann]

At most €5 for a digital download, and €20 for a boxed game of high quality.

[Steve]

Some harsh comments. The time and effort needed to put together a quality Amiga game for such a small community - it would cost many thousands at the minimum. For some people to say they would pay €5 or '€15 tops' is ridiculous.

People expect everything for nothing these days! Remember there are no in-game adverts to earn some money from and no in-game items to sell at extortionate rates. No one wonder no one makes quality titles anymore with that attitude.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Steve

Some harsh comments.

Indeed. People spend a lot of time developing those games, and for some five bucks is too much. Really?

It's really simple. Am I going to get hours of fun out of it? Yes? Then it's worth some cash, period.

[nobody]

Because if you sell it 10$ there would be 1.000 people buying. If you sell it 40$ probably only 50 or 100. People spend money mostly on hardware on the Amiga then play the old classics, and they have 100s to choose from. Which already pushed the machine to the maximum, worked for 2 years or so and that time cannot be paid with 50 sales of 40$.

[PortuguesePilot]

Originally Posted by Thorham

(...) It's really simple. Am I going to get hours of fun out of it? Yes? Then it's worth some cash, period.

That's what I said, only the wording is different. Allow me to explain:

New games for the Amiga are always welcome. Unfortunately (?), the Amiga has an extensive library of games that beckons comparisons. There's a reason why people stick to the classics: the vast majority of new software isn't up to par. I know, I know... new software is harder to put up. They're usually a one-man operation done in their free time between family life and work-time using old and difficult code languages...

But it really doesn't have to be that way, does it? Some folks here are master musicians, some are brilliant coders, others are great graphic artists. Why not join up and make a team? The spanish Spectrum scene has done that for years (yes, I know, programming a game for the speccy is easier than making one for the Amiga, but it's the idea that counts here). I reckon that if a group of 4 or 5 talented individuals came together and made some AAA Amiga titles, they would sell by the bucketload. A game done in the same line of quality as The Chaos Engine, Pang or SWOS would sell quickly, even if people charged 20€ for it. I know I would buy! A one-man-job game probably won't be able to reach that level of quality, 'cos - let's face it - none of us here seem to be a polymath when it comes to Amiga things. It's hard to fork any amount of cash for a game that won't really give you any real entertainment. This is were our thoughts converge. Some people buy a game just to have it (the game itself), but I - and others like me - actually buy games to PLAY them.

There seems to be a strange phenomenon in the Amiga community were people seem to be segregated. Yes, we're a community because we gather here but we seem to be more of a collection of "one-man-islands" than a true community (with a few exceptions). While that trend continues, I don't see the Amiga gaming scene picking up any time soon. The Amiga - which is by far my favourite platform - doesn't have a lively homebrew or indy scene, like the Spectrum and even the C64 do. Heck, even the Jaguar and the DreamCast have a better homebrew scene. A pity, really. Don't you agree?

[nobody]

Don't look at me I am already involved in many projects done for FREE. Maybe ask the 60$ guys what have they done and where are the games

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by PortuguesePilot

A pity, really. Don't you agree?

Yes, and I really wonder why it has to be this way.

[Amigajay]

I think in the last couple of years this has improved with a host of good looking games in development.
Sure its not the numbers of other platforms, but as you say its quicker to develop a game on some platforms, but imo it shouldn't be about getting the most homebrew games made, it seems esp the last year people are concentrating on quality and taking their time getting releases out.

Don't forget projects like Rygar which is a joint effort, its not like there is no co-ordination going on, a lot of help from people on projects goes on behind the scenes, doesn't mean people aren't willing to help each other.

[Anakirob]

A lot of people would pay $20. I assume this is USD as all games seem to be sold these days?

Anyway, does this mean we'd all be willing to pay the full $19.99 for a quality Indie title on the Steam Store which uses some kind of UAE based wrapper?

I would pay that for AlarCity on Steam if I did not already have the Gold package coming. And even then I would still buy it for at least one of my team if not another copy for myself also, but I would think that the Gold pack would have a Steam key if this were a thing.

[Samurai_Crow]

Regarding the cryptic old programming languages, I would focus on something cross platform using Hollywood and a custom plugin rather than waste time working on an Amiga specific game in the first place. That way it will work on everything with an '020+ and either AGA or a graphics card. The custom plug in would be written in Assembly for AGA features and that's it for the Assembly code. Because every other part would be running from the VM, there would be no need to port any part but the plugin to the graphics card users of any OS.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

I would focus on something cross platform using Hollywood and a custom plugin rather than waste time working on an Amiga specific game in the first place.

And exactly how well is that going to work?

Anyway, if you want to make an Amiga game, then make an Amiga game. If you want to do something cross platform, forget about the Amiga and use something nice, like Unity3D.

[Anakirob]

I'm sorry if the idea offends you, but if a game were available for me to play on Steam with cards and achievements and shit, and it were of R3D or PixelGlass quality then I would buy the absolute shit out of it*. And I don't think I am alone.

*I would probably buy one for myself and as many as half a dozen for friends

[Samurai_Crow]

@Thorham
I have an idea that I have yet to flesh out using the color bank switch capabilities of AGA to multi buffer color changes to improve the number of Copper shades. It is basically a LRU scheduler to use in the place of MrgCop().

Hollywood is essentially a reworked Lua scripting language with a huge runtime library so it is basically an engine in the making anyway.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Hollywood is essentially a reworked Lua scripting language with a huge runtime library so it is basically an engine in the making anyway.

But how fast is that going to be on 68k? Lua 5.3 runs well enough on a 50 mhz 68030, but it's still a good bit slower than a 68000. Doesn't seem suitable for classic Amiga games at all.

That's why I said that if you want to develop a classic Amiga game, develop a classic Amiga game. If it has to be cross platform, say Amiga and peecee, then you're limiting both platforms.

[Samurai_Crow]

I won't target less than an 020 since Hollywood doesn't either. AGA doesn't support 68010 or less so neither will I.

Modern games and engine performance allows lazy coding. Do you think Unity3D developers are merciful in the slightest bit? Heck no! If I were targetting these platforms before the Vampire were available I wouldn't stand a chance. Amiga only got a new lease on life due to the accelerator cards. It's high time to use them.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Amiga only got a new lease on life due to the accelerator cards. It's high time to use them.

It's not that simple, because the Amiga scene is fragmented:

1. Original hardware with 680x0.
2. Original hardware with PPC, GFX cards, etc.
3. FPGA hardware.
4. Emulation.
5. Next gen.

Amiga developers work on a hobby basis, so they should just pick whatever platform they like. I'm only interested in the original hardware with 680x0, so that's what has priority for me.

[PortuguesePilot]

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

(...) Modern games and engine performance allows lazy coding. (...)

This is absolutely true. As I have had the opportunity to state elsewhere in these boards, the current generation of CPUs and GPUs allow for lazy coding. Games will play well even if they're not programmed well. Basically all neo-retro games follow this trend. Which is one of the reasons why most won't be easily convertible to the humble Amiga (especially if we're talking about the 68000 processor). If you visit the "Modern Indie PC/Console games which the Amiga could probably handle just fine." thread, you'll see a whole bunch of games that the Amiga (especially 68020 AGA ones) would theoretically be able to handle, yet if one really attempts a conversion, we'll soon see that it does not. Why? Crappy coding. If a proper conversion to the Amiga is intended, then there needs to be a whole lot of optimizations for the Amiga. This, sometimes, means almost a whole overhaul of the code. The recently released conversion of CannonBall is a good example. The laziness of the original code is also a hindrance to conversion, because - especially for the humble 68000 - code optimization is needed. Most games now-a-days aren't perfectly coded like Alley Cat or Maniac Mansion were. Many are sloppy and cluttered like Spelunky or Plague.

I like the idea of making Steam-released UAE-wrapped games that work both on PC and on the Amiga. As in: an Amiga game, developed for the Amiga from the grounds up, that happens to work very well on the PC via a UAE-wrapping (akin to what The Company did with the classics). That way we could also cater to the non-amigans who appreciate neo-retro games. And as we've seen from the recent past, starting somewhere in the early years of this century (particularly after Cave Story came out), people seem to enjoy those "simple yet captivating" games a lot. Pixelart seems to be a new trend now, which is good for us. Focusing on the Amiga but with the PC market also under our belt, indy Amiga game developers would significantly increase their market. This would multiply ten-fold if we also focused on iOS and Android, since both are now able to run UAE (or a suited wrapper) flawlessly. But always with the Amiga as a prime focus and with the premiss of developing new games FOR THE AMIGA.

I play my new Spectrum games on my 128K +2, yes. And I love it. There's something magical about using the decades-old black machine and a Cheetah 125+ joystick just like yesteryear (I use a "DivMMC Enjoy!" to ease the process, natch) BUT I also play them on my Sony PSP, on my PC, my smartphone, my tablet, on my GBA... you get the point. When we develop a game for a certain platform, we can also use that exact same code to run the game on other platforms via emulation, which will significantly increase our chance of making money outside of the Amiga realm.

I still think that we should come together as a whole and act as a team in order to make our individual strengths and talents work in favour of the Amiga. The whole is always more than the mere sum of the parts. That needs true community spirit, though, and the Amiga community seems to be a little devoid of it. We need to work on improving that first, then we'll be ready to fly. Or do you all think I'm being over-optimistic?