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Old 14 January 2019, 17:39   #41
Foebane
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Very interesting, Roondar. Very interesting indeed...

Over to you, Hewitson.
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Old 15 January 2019, 10:46   #42
Hewitson
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Compact Disc vs Vinyl:



CD and quality don't even belong in the same sentence. Look at the waveform, it's almost constantly clipped. The record doesn't clip one single time.

As I said, a giant step backwards in sound quality. Which admittedly, has more to do than brainless fuckwits "mastering" the CD rather than differences between the actual formats themselves.

Last edited by Hewitson; 15 January 2019 at 10:52.
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Old 15 January 2019, 11:23   #43
Foebane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitson View Post
Compact Disc vs Vinyl:



CD and quality don't even belong in the same sentence. Look at the waveform, it's almost constantly clipped. The record doesn't clip one single time.

As I said, a giant step backwards in sound quality. Which admittedly, has more to do than brainless fuckwits "mastering" the CD rather than differences between the actual formats themselves.
I have seen waveforms for songs that are almost always maxed out on the amplitude, but I think modern records do the same thing. Why shouldn't they? Such a waveform would be easier to cut into the master. Why would they use a more natural waveform for records?

Last edited by Foebane; 15 January 2019 at 11:34.
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Old 15 January 2019, 12:13   #44
roondar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitson View Post
Compact Disc vs Vinyl:



CD and quality don't even belong in the same sentence. Look at the waveform, it's almost constantly clipped. The record doesn't clip one single time.

As I said, a giant step backwards in sound quality. Which admittedly, has more to do than brainless fuckwits "mastering" the CD rather than differences between the actual formats themselves.
I don't see any waveform here??
Did you mean to include an example?



As is, I can't agree with that statement.

First off, I'm 100% sure that, say, classical music on CD (or even older (say 1980's-early 1990's) pop recordings) has plenty of dynamic range and equally sure that pop music re-released on vinyl these days is likely to also be heavily compressed.

Secondly, you didn't counter any of the points I made on the elements of vinyl audio reproduction that are objectively (as in you can simply measure it) worse than CD's.

And thirdly, the only reason that CD's can have such a 'loud' mixes to begin with is that they don't suffer from the non-flat frequency response curve, poor signal to noise ratio and variable dynamic range* that vinyl does. Or in other words, the crap mixes (which I also dislike!) are a consequence of CD's ability to play back audio with far fewer compromises than vinyl can.

*) DR on vinyl is strongly dependent on what frequencies you record and where on the record the stylus is. High DR music does best at the beginning of the record, as dynamic range reduces the closer you get to the center of the record due to the smaller tracks and constant velocity of the record (which is analogous to slowly lowering the sampling rate as you go from one side of a CD to the other).
--
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I have seen waveforms for songs that are almost always maxed out on the amplitude, but I think modern records do the same thing. Why shouldn't they? Such a waveform would be easier to cut into the master. Why would they use a more natural waveform for records?
As I understand it, part of this whole 'loudness war' originates in how the average listener tends to find music that sounds 'louder' (i.e. has less dynamic range) to be sounding better. Crazy but apparently true.

Interestingly, some smaller CD labels/producers are 'fighting back' against this loudness war. Then there are hybrid SACDs, which usually have a very good plain CD layer as they too let the dynamic range be as big as needed rather than compressing it to hell.
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Old 15 January 2019, 12:23   #45
chb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitson View Post
CD and quality don't even belong in the same sentence. Look at the waveform, it's almost constantly clipped. The record doesn't clip one single time.

As I said, a giant step backwards in sound quality. Which admittedly, has more to do than brainless fuckwits "mastering" the CD rather than differences between the actual formats themselves.
Well, as you state yourself, clipping on a CD has nothing to do with the limitations of the medium itself (there's actually plenty of dynamic range) but with mastering/mixing habit (aka "The Loudness War"). There are indeed albums that are more sensible mixed on vinyl. But a lot of CD records exists that are not compressed/brick wall limited to death - be assured, you would have a hard time finding a classic or jazz record showing that kind (or even any kind) of clipping.

As much as I like vinyl for various reasons, it is technically clearly inferior to CD audio.
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Old 15 January 2019, 12:42   #46
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I should add here that I love the experience of playing a record and feel it's a wonderful way to get 'closer' to the act of playing back music (the sheer physicality of seeing the needle move and being able to hear the sounds coming from the actual stylus even when no amplification is used just 'work' for me). My points have nothing to do with me being 'against' vinyl. It's just that I disagree with pretending it's 'better' than everything else regardless of what technical or scientific facts actually tell us.
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Old 15 January 2019, 12:53   #47
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The two waveforms of a song show a normal one and a ramped (clipping). 16bit and 32bit. That is all the information I can extrapolate.
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Old 19 January 2019, 01:07   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
I can take any demo or game and run in on WinUAE, or even real hardware, and it will sound as intended, but when I take the .mod file and run it on something like XMPlay, it will invariably sound different - why?

I'm specifically talking about some of the samples sounding like they have a low-pass filter on, but not all of them. Why is that? As far as I'm aware, music modules don't have a filter on/off for each sample.

So what's going on?
Not an expert but I would say WINUAE does a very good job of emulating the Paula chip, obvs. not the same as Paula but still close
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Old 19 January 2019, 03:29   #49
chip
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WinUAE does a PERFECT job with audio emulation

Just try this by yourself :

Take a module which you like

Make a recording in .WAV with WinUAE option

Create a .MP3 from the resulting .WAV

Then go to this site

http://www.paula8364.com/

Download the "same" .MP3 you created with WinUAE and make comparison

I can ensure you that i tried this by myself with some different modules

Well, result is that the real thing sounds exactly like the emulated thing

Or, at least, my ears are not able to spot the difference
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Old 19 January 2019, 18:26   #50
robinsonb5
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
As I understand it, part of this whole 'loudness war' originates in how the average listener tends to find music that sounds 'louder' (i.e. has less dynamic range) to be sounding better. Crazy but apparently true.
I think part of it is also that people want to be able to listen to music in their cars and other noisy environments. The low dynamic range means that more of the song is audible over road noise.
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Old 19 January 2019, 20:52   #51
zipper
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Radio senders (commercial) were competing of listeners - louder one got more attention.
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Old Yesterday, 01:46   #52
oundfire99
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As someone said on here, answered my thought about analog and 8bit merging together (ie. Octamed) better than modern digital, means you don't need to over compress the shit out of everything to make it louder and lose dynamic range. Really interesting subject though as modern methods require a lot of EQ and work to make mix work where-as everything sounds amazing in Octamed or similar (8 bit tracker) Analog vs Digital argument proven right here ...
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Old Yesterday, 03:35   #53
robinsonb5
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Originally Posted by oundfire99 View Post
Really interesting subject though as modern methods require a lot of EQ and work to make mix work

That's mainly because modern mixes have many more channels to deal with. A naive method of mixing channels is to add the signals together and divide by the number of channels. That will obviously result in each channel getting quieter as more channels are added, requiring more advanced EQ, compression, etc.


The Amiga has it easy by only having to mix 2 channels for each side of the stereo image.
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Old Yesterday, 06:00   #54
Mrz
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I have an old version of winamp which can play Amiga modules using an old plugin called in_mod.dll
this is very precise and the sound obtained playing modules is identical to my Amiga 1200
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