LCD monitor with 50 Hz pal games

PiCiJi · 14 December 2009, 21:36

Im a still using a CRT monitor. So it's time for a LCD. On my CRT I lower the refresh rate to 50 Hz to enjoy smooth scrolling with pal games. But I wonder if it's possible to play pal games with smooth scrolling on a LCD Monitor. I always read from fixed refresh rates on LCD's (60 Hz)
So is there a possibility to emulate pal games smoothly on a LCD?

alexh · 14 December 2009, 22:11

If you buy an LCDTV instead of a standard PC LCD and use the SCART input then yes. Otherwise you'd have to be very lucky to find an LCD that syncs to 50Hz.

Do not forget the other two problems with LCD's

1) They do not work with Amiga's because they do not sync to 15KHz horizontal refresh so you need a scandoubler (built in for LCDTV's)
2) Their native resolution is usually many times PAL and inputting a PAL resolution signal introduces scaling artifacts.

The Indivision AGA & ECS scandoublers scan rate convert PAL 50Hz screens to 60Hz for compatibility but the scrolling is not 100% smooth. Much better to use a tool to promote the PAL games to 60Hz. (i.e. WHDload)

PiCiJi · 14 December 2009, 22:53

thanks for the hints. Is the game speed unchanged by promoting a pal game to 60 Hz with WHDload? I mean, when I play pal games in 60 Hz with vsync the scrolling is smooth but video and audio are too fast.

alexh · 14 December 2009, 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiCiJi

Is the game speed unchanged by promoting a pal game to 60 Hz with WHDload?

Video : Of course not.
Audio : Depends on how the game was programmed, if it uses VBL interrupt then yes, if it used a timer then no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiCiJi

I mean, when I play pal games in 60 Hz with vsync the scrolling is smooth but video and audio are too fast.

Too fast for what? Most of the time you never notice.

Maren · 14 December 2009, 23:50

PAL application + 60hz monitor + vsync = incorrect speed but smooth scrolling.

PAL application + 60hz monitor - vsync = correct speed but bad scrolling.

It's either one or the other

NewDeli · 15 December 2009, 00:46

Why part with the CRT monitor, then ? I myself choose to display Workbench on a modern LCD and native mode screen (classic games, demos) on the CRT. Best Amiga emulation related decision I made in monthes !

Allen1 · 15 December 2009, 00:55

I am using a EIZO FlexScan L360 LCD monitor on my minimig and it works a treat, the other 2 LCD monitors I tried came up with out of range and one of them is brand new. Maybe a proper list of compatible monitors would be a good idea for anyone who needs a monitor as Ebay is probably the best place to get one if you are aware of what to look for.

NewDeli · 15 December 2009, 01:28

You maintain that list Allen1, and I'll print the stickers "Smooth WinUAE Scrolling guaranteed", I guess we're gonna become rich soon

.

Allen1 · 15 December 2009, 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

You maintain that list Allen1, and I'll print the stickers "Smooth WinUAE Scrolling guaranteed", I guess we're gonna become rich soon

.

all it would take is for users to say what monitor works with what hardware/Amiga they are running it from. Another monitor that works with a Minimig is a TUV 29J56G CRT mine is badged as RM, this monitor has built in stereo speakers and also a microphone and is dated 1997. The displayed area is smaller on this in comparison to the EIZO FlexScan L360 LCD monitor.

Maybe information like this would be useful to anyone buying a Minimig, I have not tried the monitors on any other Amigas as I use those on TV's with the scart lead I made plus I don't have a converter ie 23 pin to 15.

PiCiJi · 15 December 2009, 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Too fast for what? Most of the time you never notice.

maybe i should give playing pal games in 60 Hz a second chance. In the past I have noticed it by few games for example Lionheart.

alexh · 15 December 2009, 19:21

Lionheart was designed to run at 60Hz wasn't it? I seem to remember it had that option in it's menus? I may be mistaken.

Plus it had it's own HD installer and so is not a WHDload game.

NewDeli · 15 December 2009, 19:44

Some WHDload games have a HD installer (sometimes it's not even "broken"), and the other way round, alexh.

@PiCiJi
You shouldn't notice any hiccup with games bearing a vertical scrolling.

Retro-Nerd · 15 December 2009, 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Lionheart was designed to run at 60Hz wasn't it? I seem to remember it had that option in it's menus? I may be mistaken.

Plus it had it's own HD installer and so is not a WHDload game.

Lionheart wasn't designed for 60Hz. But Flink was, it's switchable to 50/60Hz with the green CD32 pad button.

alexh · 15 December 2009, 21:13

My mistake Lionheart had interlace not 60Hz.

Lockon · 16 December 2009, 11:17

@thread
I have A500 with Indivision ECS hooked up on HP L1950.
Smooth scrolling on 50hz.

alexh · 16 December 2009, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lockon

HP L1950. Smooth scrolling on 50hz.

Wow, one of the few monitors which actually says 50Hz on the Tech. Specs.

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en...7-3463255.html

Just a shame it isn't 1600x1200 or I would have had one

Might look at a HP LP2065

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en...1-1815933.html

Damn cannot find one for sale anywhere in the UK

Lockon · 18 December 2009, 12:16

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/uk/en...1-1815933.html

In the lower right corner, you can track links to HP partners.
(Misco, Dabs, PC World Business)

Chain · 18 December 2009, 13:39

p.s. hp are quite craps for ami in native res+scandoubler, as you cannot stretch and move image, those options are simply missing in menu

ancalimon · 18 December 2009, 15:05

send emails to "for example" Samsung to produce monitors that can sync down to 15khz and 50hz. Maybe they value their customer that much.

I would immediately buy 2 or maybe 3 such monitors (20"?) if they ever produced one.

Lockon · 18 December 2009, 16:34

@Chain
There are a lot of crap, HP included, I agree.
(For instance, earlier model in this 19" range L1940T miss exactly those features)

However, this specific unit has following options under Main Menu/Image control:
Auto Adjustment, Horizontal Position, Vertical Position, Clock, Clock Phase

14 December 2009, 21:36	#1
PiCiJi Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: germany Age: 45 Posts: 403	LCD monitor with 50 Hz pal games Im a still using a CRT monitor. So it's time for a LCD. On my CRT I lower the refresh rate to 50 Hz to enjoy smooth scrolling with pal games. But I wonder if it's possible to play pal games with smooth scrolling on a LCD Monitor. I always read from fixed refresh rates on LCD's (60 Hz) So is there a possibility to emulate pal games smoothly on a LCD?

14 December 2009, 22:11	#2
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,337	If you buy an LCDTV instead of a standard PC LCD and use the SCART input then yes. Otherwise you'd have to be very lucky to find an LCD that syncs to 50Hz. Do not forget the other two problems with LCD's 1) They do not work with Amiga's because they do not sync to 15KHz horizontal refresh so you need a scandoubler (built in for LCDTV's) 2) Their native resolution is usually many times PAL and inputting a PAL resolution signal introduces scaling artifacts. The Indivision AGA & ECS scandoublers scan rate convert PAL 50Hz screens to 60Hz for compatibility but the scrolling is not 100% smooth. Much better to use a tool to promote the PAL games to 60Hz. (i.e. WHDload) Last edited by alexh; 14 December 2009 at 22:17.

18 December 2009, 16:34	#20
Lockon Air supremacy Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Rijeka Croatia Age: 49 Posts: 121	@Chain There are a lot of crap, HP included, I agree. (For instance, earlier model in this 19" range L1940T miss exactly those features) However, this specific unit has following options under Main Menu/Image control: Auto Adjustment, Horizontal Position, Vertical Position, Clock, Clock Phase Last edited by Lockon; 18 December 2009 at 18:23.

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14 December 2009, 22:53	#3
PiCiJi Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: germany Age: 45 Posts: 403	thanks for the hints. Is the game speed unchanged by promoting a pal game to 60 Hz with WHDload? I mean, when I play pal games in 60 Hz with vsync the scrolling is smooth but video and audio are too fast.

14 December 2009, 23:50	#5
Maren Banned Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: * Posts: 567	PAL application + 60hz monitor + vsync = incorrect speed but smooth scrolling. PAL application + 60hz monitor - vsync = correct speed but bad scrolling. It's either one or the other

15 December 2009, 00:46	#6
NewDeli Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Paris / FRANCE Age: 50 Posts: 1,248	Why part with the CRT monitor, then ? I myself choose to display Workbench on a modern LCD and native mode screen (classic games, demos) on the CRT. Best Amiga emulation related decision I made in monthes !

15 December 2009, 00:55	#7
Allen1 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Blyth England Age: 68 Posts: 786	I am using a EIZO FlexScan L360 LCD monitor on my minimig and it works a treat, the other 2 LCD monitors I tried came up with out of range and one of them is brand new. Maybe a proper list of compatible monitors would be a good idea for anyone who needs a monitor as Ebay is probably the best place to get one if you are aware of what to look for.

15 December 2009, 01:28	#8
NewDeli Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Paris / FRANCE Age: 50 Posts: 1,248	You maintain that list Allen1, and I'll print the stickers "Smooth WinUAE Scrolling guaranteed", I guess we're gonna become rich soon .

15 December 2009, 19:21	#11
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,337	Lionheart was designed to run at 60Hz wasn't it? I seem to remember it had that option in it's menus? I may be mistaken. Plus it had it's own HD installer and so is not a WHDload game.

15 December 2009, 19:44	#12
NewDeli Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Paris / FRANCE Age: 50 Posts: 1,248	Some WHDload games have a HD installer (sometimes it's not even "broken"), and the other way round, alexh. @PiCiJi You shouldn't notice any hiccup with games bearing a vertical scrolling.

15 December 2009, 21:13	#14
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,337	My mistake Lionheart had interlace not 60Hz.

16 December 2009, 11:17	#15
Lockon Air supremacy Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Rijeka Croatia Age: 49 Posts: 121	@thread I have A500 with Indivision ECS hooked up on HP L1950. Smooth scrolling on 50hz.

18 December 2009, 12:16	#17
Lockon Air supremacy Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Rijeka Croatia Age: 49 Posts: 121	http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/uk/en...1-1815933.html In the lower right corner, you can track links to HP partners. (Misco, Dabs, PC World Business)

18 December 2009, 13:39	#18
Chain A-Collector, repairments Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Czech Rep. Age: 50 Posts: 1,536	p.s. hp are quite craps for ami in native res+scandoubler, as you cannot stretch and move image, those options are simply missing in menu

18 December 2009, 15:05	#19
ancalimon Supernormal Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Istanbul / Turkey Age: 43 Posts: 1,410	send emails to "for example" Samsung to produce monitors that can sync down to 15khz and 50hz. Maybe they value their customer that much. I would immediately buy 2 or maybe 3 such monitors (20"?) if they ever produced one.

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