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Old 06 April 2017, 10:39   #641
Jope
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Originally Posted by 1time View Post
Soon this thread will be locked and "cleaned"!
Cleaned yes, locked no. It has been civil. Please lay off those veiled snide remarks, I don't appreciate it.

I would like to split the metadiscussion away from support.Hardware. What would be a good place? Amiga Scene perhaps?
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Old 06 April 2017, 10:47   #642
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Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
FWIW his question was entirely clear to me, and a perfectly sensible one at that, your reply was pedantic and obtuse as fuck.
It was also obvious to me what he meant and I am no electronics expert by any standard, also banning him seems really harsh when you consider how I behaved a few years ago and was gently guided to calm down and relax for which I am grateful and saw things were not that bad in the real world after all

I hope Plasmab comes back and continues with his work and before anyone else badmouths the guy, look in the mirror and tell me the the person you see has never lost it at some time in their lives!
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Old 06 April 2017, 11:15   #643
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Originally Posted by Leffmann View Post
I think this was more a situation of two people arguing, rather than one person bullying or picking on another, and moderators should've just asked them to calm, or locked the thread for a short while if that didn't work.
IMO the fault was on plasmab's side only. EDIT: it's not my place to get into judging character.

I'm not saying a ban was the right course of action, but for all we know there was private correspondence prior to the ban and he started attacking the moderator. I was a mod on another forum for a while and certain personality types react *really* badly to being asked to cool it, when you'd think a grown adult would just apologise and suck it up. As ptyerman said, this was always going to happen sooner or later and the specific incident is almost irrelevant - he was a ticking time bomb.

Last edited by clebin; 06 April 2017 at 11:41.
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Old 06 April 2017, 12:04   #644
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Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
FWIW his question was entirely clear to me, and a perfectly sensible one at that, your reply was pedantic and obtuse as fuck.
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Old 06 April 2017, 12:53   #645
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Originally Posted by talybont View Post
I think it was the other way around, he hurt someones feelings on the internet and had to be punished. I am starting to see why everything Amiga fails. The Amiga attracts some brilliant people, but mostly morons. I am a moron btw.
You're right. The vintage computing community in general is stubborn and easily butthurt. Instead of supporting each other and being encouraging with projects, it's all about not rocking the boat, shutting down people with new ideas, and the old boys club protecting each other from legitimate criticism.

I got sick of it and created my own space, I only came here because plasmab wouldn't use any other forums.

I do have to say that it's frustrating that when plasmab get's into it with someone else he reacts by punishing everyone. I do have issue with that. Though I do understand how, from his perspective, he does all this work and spends his own money and time to help the Amiga community for free, and all it appears (to him) to get him is nitpicking or outright criticism in return.

On this side, I take issue with the childish way that the old boys club in these communities wield their ban hammers like they're compensating for some sort of genital deficiency. It happens constantly in every vintage computing forum I've participated in and it's maddening.
I mean sure, I understood it back when these computers were new and we were all 12 and running a BBS and using OP status in flame wars to feel like bigshots. But now were all supposed to be grown ups helping each other out to keep a community alive. Again, this is a criticism of the vintage community in general and as a whole, not of a particular forum, though I can't think of one where this doesn't go on. I don't know why this problem is so pervasive in these communities, but it's maddening as hell, especially when it's so clear that most moderation of these kinds of incidents is often neither fair and equal, nor without partisanship.

Personally, I think I'd try alternative measures to deal with these issues, but then it's not my house so I guess I'll just wander back to mine.
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Old 06 April 2017, 13:27   #646
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And your dismissive tone towards him didn't help either, I guess
You mean after he asked me whether I was dim?
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Old 06 April 2017, 13:46   #647
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Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
FWIW his question was entirely clear to me, and a perfectly sensible one at that, your reply was pedantic and obtuse as fuck.
Well, it wasn't to me which is why I asked. Considering his replies I remained very polite throughout the exchange.
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Old 06 April 2017, 13:49   #648
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Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
FWIW his question was entirely clear to me, and a perfectly sensible one at that, your reply was pedantic and obtuse as fuck.
Indeed. Now, maybe the thread's been cleaned up, but as it stands now I can't see anything that's really ban-worthy. Yes, plasmab overreacted, but it doesn't look like grond was particularly offended either so I don't see what the fuss was about. Plasmab even got and accepted the answer he was looking for so that would've been the end of it I'd have thought.

Overall I think the moderation on this site is pretty even, but without seeing any other communication that may or may not have happened out of our sight we can't be sure there weren't other considerations.

A good point was brought up about vintage communities, and I see it in lots of places but nowhere as much as the Amiga community. It seems that when a community shrinks, a higher proportion of "normal", level-headed people leave than the obsessive, over-the-top passionate types. As a result, you get a higher concentration of the over-reactive types as the overall numbers drop, resulting in more flare-ups, and in crazy situations like the Amiga community, fifteen-year-and-counting "camp" wars.

It's small wonder people are leaving, and who can blame them for taking their toys with them.
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Old 06 April 2017, 13:55   #649
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Guys, all I'm gonna say is, the people capable of creating projects like these can usually be counted on the fingers of one hand, and most of the time their name starts with Jens and ends with Schoenfeld. It was nice to have another name on that list. Draw your own conclusions.
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Old 06 April 2017, 14:03   #650
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Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
Indeed. Now, maybe the thread's been cleaned up, but as it stands now I can't see anything that's really ban-worthy. Yes, plasmab overreacted, but it doesn't look like grond was particularly offended either so I don't see what the fuss was about.
This is true, I'm not easily offended but I will reply in the tone I'm approached with. I didn't call on moderation either. He can play the clown as much as he wants to even though threatening somebody to "do much much worse things to his face" isn't precisely my type of humour. The way I saw moderation on this forum before (rather low-key and fairly balanced) I tend to believe that he continued in this way when approached by the moderator.
Quote:
It's small wonder people are leaving, and who can blame them for taking their toys with them.
Blame? No. But it supports the impression of a severe lack of maturity that also showed in his style of conversation.
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Old 06 April 2017, 14:04   #651
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well... only takes 31 pages..... shame

for those that don't have a copy of the repository - I have a copy of the "2017_3_6" TF530 builds including the TF520 and 68kBreakout boards.

I would be much happier if Stephen returns to put these back into circulation however for those that have invested in this, I am happy to help those whom are struggling with the project albeit programming / assembly- all I ask is that you "pay-it-forward" and help others where you can.

If you need help, just hit me up in PM.
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Old 06 April 2017, 14:09   #652
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grond is a very direct poster, something Ive seen before. I actually find it rather refreshing, but people differ I guess.

Ive seen Plasmab get rather easily flustered before, which has made me hesitate to post a reply once Ive noticed he got annoyed. Thats fine. We are all different people.

That said; both grond and plasmab are active resources for this community, and given their postingstyle/personas it was a perfect alignment of this going wrong at some point.

I just randomly drifted into plasmab's youtube channel one day, and found his videos to be very well made and intresting. Ive always hoped that creative people like him took the attention they get as a positive thing, even daft/unrealistic suggestions. Hardware illiterate people probably constitute the majority of retrosite users, and we might get carried away with suggestions. Instead of getting annoyed over it, ignore it, or just flat out say "its not part of the current plans".

Banning plasmab seemed to be an extremely bad decision based on whats posted in public view.
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Old 06 April 2017, 14:41   #653
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Should have been locked not banned.
This is not exclusive to retro sites. You should see the real hate at my industry's discussion boards. If there was real enforcement I and many others would have been deported.
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Old 06 April 2017, 14:46   #654
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I remember the days of FIDONet groups, and there was no such thing as a ban button. Things had to be done more diplomatically. Extreme measures involved the user's BBS Sysop, or their local Net, Region, or Zone coordinator to cut feeds if they didn't act responsibly. Ergo the flame wars of the day. Little did we know it was today's social media in it's infancy.
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Old 06 April 2017, 15:19   #655
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Originally Posted by Leffmann View Post
Barging in with the ban-hammer, chucking people out of the forums, and then erasing all traces of what happened must be the worst possible way to manage a public forum with open discussion.
i just saw the relevant postings were removed, thinking things should calm down this way.
I didnt expected perm ban. not good :/
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Old 06 April 2017, 15:21   #656
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Only Amigans make this possible....
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Old 06 April 2017, 15:26   #657
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Originally Posted by alenppc View Post
Guys, all I'm gonna say is, the people capable of creating projects like these can usually be counted on the fingers of one hand, and most of the time their name starts with Jens and ends with Schoenfeld. It was nice to have another name on that list. Draw your own conclusions.
Also Jens got a temp ban recently on a1k.
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Old 06 April 2017, 15:27   #658
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Only Amigans make this possible....
indeed. since we already lost GIBS and cosmos - maybe others - due to some disputes here already.

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Originally Posted by ShK View Post
Also Jens got a temp ban recently on a1k.
should have happened here too, for his p96 and fpga gfx card letter.
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Old 06 April 2017, 15:42   #659
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I didnt expected perm ban. not good :/
Plasmab did not get a perm ban as far as I understood it. One week.
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Old 06 April 2017, 16:07   #660
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Originally Posted by Jope View Post
I would like to split the metadiscussion away from support.Hardware. What would be a good place? Amiga Scene perhaps?
Why? Because it makes moderator decisions look bad? What happened is on topic. Plasmab's banning is now related to his project which is hardware related. Are you going to delete all the banning related discussions and just leave people wondering what happened? More politically correct censorship is all we need .

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Originally Posted by Overflow View Post
grond is a very direct poster, something Ive seen before. I actually find it rather refreshing, but people differ I guess.
The problem with being "very direct" is that if you are off base or misunderstood you put people on the defensive and can incite some people. Yes, grond has been off base in some threads involving me too. I wondered if it was deliberate inciting at times but other times I have found his comments helpful.

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Originally Posted by Overflow View Post
Ive seen Plasmab get rather easily flustered before, which has made me hesitate to post a reply once Ive noticed he got annoyed. Thats fine. We are all different people.
You do need an outlet for frustration. I suggested a punching bag half joking before. I use humor and sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Overflow View Post
That said; both grond and plasmab are active resources for this community, and given their postingstyle/personas it was a perfect alignment of this going wrong at some point.
Yep. The mods need to consider the good with the bad when deciding what to do or not do in this case. Amiga forum censorship really hurts the Amiga. I left amiga.org and amigaworld.net after being censored and banned and it hurt the development of 68k NetSurf which I was helping to debug. I was also warned and nearly banned from this forum for suggesting superscalar optimizations which should benefit future FPGA processors like the "vaporware" Apollo core. I backed off as the thread was specifically titled 68000 optimizations where Gunnar von Boehn was banned for a week which I thought was an overreaction too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overflow View Post
Banning plasmab seemed to be an extremely bad decision based on whats posted in public view.
Users should get a clear warning from moderators that they are on the verge of being banned. Moderators should be tolerant of what is said and argued in private. Moderators should come together, discuss and make sure decisions are correct rather than blindly backing each other's decisions, especially when there is a likely abuse of power. Moderators should be warned when they abuse their power (like users) and removed if the abuse persists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predseda View Post
Only Amigans make this possible....
Only Amiga makes it impossible. Get it right .

Last edited by matthey; 06 April 2017 at 16:12.
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