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Old 20 August 2010, 22:36   #41
Toni Wilen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prowler View Post
Hi Toni,

That's what I was hoping. If I create a suitable WinUAE mountlist called DS0 for these 12 sectors per track ADF images when inserted in DF0:, can I place it in Devs/DOSDrivers and access those images as DS0: when they are inserted?
Of course not possible via DF0: because there is no way to fit 12 sectors in normal ADOS formatted disk.

Easiest solution is probably image device like fmsdisk.device or similar (usable also on real Amigas without diskspare)

But if you only want to read them on winuae: mount it as a harddrive
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Old 20 August 2010, 22:44   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Of course not possible via DF0: because there is no way to fit 12 sectors in normal ADOS formatted disk.
Why is this not possible in WinUAE when it _is_ possible to mount a 1760K ADF image as a high density virtual floppy with 22 sectors per track?

Surely all that WinUAE cares about is that there's enough space in he disk image? Why should it care about whether 12 sectors fit on a normal ADOS formatted disk?
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Old 20 August 2010, 22:48   #43
Toni Wilen
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Originally Posted by prowler View Post
Why is this not possible in WinUAE when it _is_ possible to mount a 1760K ADF image as a high density virtual floppy with 22 sectors per track?

Surely all that WinUAE cares about is that there's enough space in he disk image? Why should it care about whether 12 sectors fit on a normal ADOS formatted disk?
Because no one would be able to read it, trackdisk.device can't handle anything else than 11 (DD) or 22 (HD) sectors per track.
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Old 20 August 2010, 22:53   #44
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Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Because no one would be able to read it, trackdisk.device can't handle anything else than 11 (DD) or 22 (HD) sectors per track.
Hmm... Hence the requirement for diskspare.device?

So, if I declare diskspare.device instead of trackdisk.device in the 'Device = ' statement in my DS0 mountfile, will it then work?

Edit1: And could fmsdisk.device could be used in the same way?

Edit2: Sorry for all these questions. It will save me a lot a trial and error if I know what might and might not work beforehand.

Last edited by prowler; 20 August 2010 at 22:59.
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Old 20 August 2010, 23:37   #45
Toni Wilen
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Originally Posted by prowler View Post
Hmm... Hence the requirement for diskspare.device?
Yes. 12 sectors in Amigados format can't fit in DD disk, diskspare uses custom format (no sector headers and other "unnecessary" data that normal ados format includes)

Note that only physical format is custom (requires extended adf), logical format is normal (=standard ADF compatible). Any Amiga filesystem has no problems with this, just like harddrive can have any number of logical head, sectors etc..

Remember also that Amiga disk controller can only read and write raw data. Software is needed to encode/decode MFM. PC floppy controllers do the MFM decoding in hardware, software can't even see original raw data..

Hope this isn't too confusing

Quote:
So, if I declare diskspare.device instead of trackdisk.device in the 'Device = ' statement in my DS0 mountfile, will it then work?
Yes. WinUAE automatically detects 12/24 sector adf images and makes emulated raw disk data look like a diskspare formatted disk (instead of normal ados)

Quote:
Edit1: And could fmsdisk.device could be used in the same way?
It should work, as long as sectors=12. No diskspare.device needed.

Quote:
Edit2: Sorry for all these questions. It will save me a lot a trial and error if I know what might and might not work beforehand.
Some trial and error might be faster
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Old 20 August 2010, 23:49   #46
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Thankyou very much for your replies, Toni! They're not confusing at all!

This is my first experience of custom disk formats, device drivers and mountlists for the Amiga, so there were bound to be a few points I would have trouble with. However, all is clear now!
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Old 21 August 2010, 03:47   #47
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How do people now image ndos disks so that they can be used with winuae. Isn't this the way that should be aiming for with these, as ndos disks.

Better way is to hope that someone has these disks and can image them for use on winuae in an adf or other usable disk device. That is without needing to have a custom mount list.

Because if you remember these disks had to be used from boot. Run from boot disk 1 would load the AUI menu if selected a disk two software|game it would then load the data from it.

This couldn't be done from wb, the disk 1 and probably the disk cover, magazine and disk menu says this. Have a look at a disk1 to see what it uses to accesses these disks is maybe the way, and try to make them do the same.

The disk1 can be viewed from wb but not disk2, though disk1 is needed to be looked at, the startup scripts.
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Old 21 August 2010, 05:28   #48
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Originally Posted by exoticaga View Post
How do people now image ndos disks so that they can be used with winuae. Isn't this the way that should be aiming for with these, as ndos disks.

Better way is to hope that someone has these disks and can image them for use on winuae in an adf or other usable disk device. That is without needing to have a custom mount list.

Because if you remember these disks had to be used from boot. Run from boot disk 1 would load the AUI menu if selected a disk two software|game it would then load the data from it.

This couldn't be done from wb, the disk 1 and probably the disk cover, magazine and disk menu says this. Have a look at a disk1 to see what it uses to accesses these disks is maybe the way, and try to make them do the same.

The disk1 can be viewed from wb but not disk2, though disk1 is needed to be looked at, the startup scripts.
Sorry this thread has lost me - Disk 1 used a mount list with diskspare.device to access the second disk is this how there being presserved?
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Old 21 August 2010, 08:12   #49
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If you know disk1 startup scripts really did use diskspare mountlist then i guess for originality Prowler will use that also. Reason i asked so it can be kept original as possible. As i cannot check right now what disk1 startup scripts use for disk2.

If disk1 never used diskspare mountlist then the disks prowler is converting from disksqueeze should not use diskspare also. And a request be made to replace these disks from original disks. Though the Amiga User International - Coverdisk hunt seems this might not be possible to do, the problem why shown in this post. I would not be suripsed if does use diskspare mountlist as i would have tried my very best to use exact same methods when i converted them, as original disk for disk2. I do remember they were a major problem, for any other disk image tool i had then. As it is maybe for the caps imager now.
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Old 21 August 2010, 10:32   #50
Toni Wilen
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How do people now image ndos disks so that they can be used with winuae. Isn't this the way that should be aiming for with these, as ndos disks.
Disks that work in AmigaOS but are using custom format are special cases. They are and are not ndos disk

Physical format is ndos, logical format is dos.

It can be stored in "physical format" (extended adf) but image is twice the size and includes some "useless" (header info, mfm encoding etc) data. (same as storing normal 880k dos disks as an extended image)

It can also be stored in "logical format" (normal adf), size is 512*sectors*2*80, includes only user data, no extra formatting data included.

Normally custom formatted disks' (copy protected games) format is unknown (and also single disk can have multiple different per-track formats) and only possible method for imaging is image file that supports raw data.

trackdisk.device is sort of "converter" that can convert between standard ados disk in extended format to/from standard adf. diskspare.device does the same with diskspare disks. (extended adf to/from standard adf with 12 sectors)

Hope this helped
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Old 21 August 2010, 23:52   #51
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Originally Posted by Boo Boo View Post
Disk 1 used a mount list with diskspare.device to access the second disk is this how they're being preserved?
Quote:
Originally Posted by exoticaga View Post
If you know disk1 startup scripts really did use diskspare mountlist then i guess for originality Prowler will use that also. Reason i asked so it can be kept original as possible. As i cannot check right now what disk1 startup scripts use for disk2.
Thanks for this information, Boo Boo and exoticaga.

I didn't get a chance to try this today, due to visitors. When I do, I'll look at how the Disk 1 startup scripts make it possible to access the files on Disk 2 and use this as a basis for mouting the 12 blocks per track ADF images in WinUAE.

If this is successful, I shall upload a readme file, complete with diskspare.device and mountlist files for mounting these images, to be provided in the AUI Coverdisks folder on the EAB File Server.

Of course, it might also be possible to boot the emulation from the Disk 1 image and access the files on the Disk 2 image mounted in DF1:, and I shall investigate this also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by exoticaga View Post
If disk1 never used diskspare mountlist then the disks prowler is converting from disksqueeze should not use diskspare also.
I can confirm that the Disk 1 images I extracted from the DiskSqueeze archives did not require the diskspare.device in order to do so. These images are standard 880K ADFs and will mount without additional device drivers or mountlists.
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Old 22 August 2010, 07:08   #52
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Howerver you do it better to also post those details here, and the read me. So become a guide thread for others in future needing to do this.



Thanks Toni for the useful details, copied to a txt for future reference.
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Old 24 August 2010, 02:13   #53
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I'll look at how the Disk 1 startup scripts make it possible to access the files on Disk 2 and use this as a basis for mouting the 12 blocks per track ADF images in WinUAE.
The startup scripts on AUI_103.ADF use diskspare.device 2.2 (requires Kickstart V36 or higher) and a Mountlist which defines the drive parameters for DS0: and DS1:.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prowler View Post
Of course, it might also be possible to boot the emulation from the Disk 1 image and access the files on the Disk 2 image mounted in DF1:, and I shall investigate this also.
Mounting AUI_103.ADF in DF0: and AUI_104.ADF in DF1: and booting the emulation brings uo a menu which includes installing Games Disk 1 and Game Disk 2. Choosing to install Games Disk 2 (the Diskspare disk) brings up a list of drives available to install the games to, and this includes both DS0: and DS1:. However, both drives are shown as unreadable. DF0: is shown as the AUI 103 SuperDisk volume, and DF1: is shown as a NDOS disk.

From this, I must assume that I'm using a version of the emulator which doesn't support Diskspare disks. (Don't ask. ) I guess it's time for an update!
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Old 24 August 2010, 18:57   #54
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its possible to use a memory drive statram.device, or a FMSdisk.device as a diskspare device. just use the same settings in the DS0: and DS1: or mounlist.

FMSdisk.device uses harddrive

statram.device uses memory

couldnt be much simpler
heres my mountlist for FF0: and SD0:


SD0: Device = statram.device
Unit = 0
BlocksPerTrack = 12
HighCyl = 79
BufMemType = 1
DosType = 0x444F5303
Flags = 3
Surfaces = 2
Reserved = 2
Interleave = 0
LowCyl = 0
Buffers = 5
StackSize = 600
Priority = 5
Mount = 1
#

FF0: Device = fmsdisk.device
Unit = 0
Flags = 1
Surfaces = 2
BlocksPerTrack = 12
Reserved = 2
Interleave = 0
LowCyl = 0
HighCyl = 79
Buffers = 2
BufMemType = 0
#

You can have upto 9 FF0: - FF9:
i believe the dostype is for FFS not OFS in SD0:.
HighCYL can also be 81
but most of the AUI disks only used 79.
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Old 24 August 2010, 19:12   #55
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I think the problem is imaging the disk?
DF1 shows NDOS but what about DS1? I would assume ADF/eADF could hold a disk of this type.
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Old 01 October 2010, 00:46   #56
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Just had a talk with NioByte on IRC tonight and he extracted the AUI disks. That results in 'normal' disks which can be imaged to ADF. Struggled a bit before I got it tbh, because I thought the disks were 'ready-to-use'.
Okay, the question now is why not just keep the extracted data instead of the original disk images (or both for that matter)? In order to use them you'd have to go through that process anyway (hope I got that right ).

Last edited by TCD; 01 October 2010 at 01:05. Reason: -d +ve ;)
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Old 02 October 2010, 00:08   #57
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Okay, the question now is why not just keep the extracted data instead of the original disk images (or both for that matter)?
Why not? Indeed!

Unless the preference is for original disk images rather than useful files, I see no reason why keeping the extracted data exclusively should not be a better alternative.

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Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid View Post
In order to use them you'd have to go through [the extraction] process anyway.
Quite!
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Old 02 October 2010, 00:32   #58
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Thanks for confirming prowler
I shall upload the extracted disks tomorrow then and wipe some missing ones off that list Will also ask NioByte for the original diskspare images and put them of the file server as well then.
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Old 08 December 2010, 12:35   #59
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I have DS0: mounted in WB3.9 which reads the ext disks fine but what I want to know is why can't I format these disks using DS0: ?

Also is the "custom disk" size of 2mb the default (only) size or can it be made smaller, say 960kb to match DS0:.

EDIT:I'm using WinUAE BTW

Last edited by Arnie; 08 December 2010 at 12:53.
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