PicassoIV scandoubler configuration

[ajk]

Hello,

I'm hoping there's someone here who knows a lot about the scandoubler on the Picasso IV. I'm running into weird issues trying to use it on an LCD monitor. System is an A4000.

Right, so at the moment the IDE hard drive that I have in the computer is a bit slow to start, so after power up I get the Kickstart screen, as expected. However, the monitor complains that the screenmode is not a supported one (even though it does display it). The first attached picture demonstrates this. Don't mind the moiré effect, that's just because of the camera, not a fault of the monitor or the PIV.

Ok, then I do a soft boot once the hd has spun up. I am greeted by a crazy resolution warning as seen in the second picture. I'm pretty sure I haven't defined that kind of mode anywhere; the PIV shouldn't even be capable of anything like that.

Once Workbench loads up, it works fine in the 1024x768 RTG mode it is supposed to use. The third picture represents what kind of settings I have defined in PicassoModeTNG.

So, what exactly is happening here? How can I check that what is defined in the PMTNG actually goes into the flash rom? It does seem to save it if I make changes, but how do I know? And why is the original cold boot using different settings?

Any help would be much appreciated, as having a PIV seems pointless if the scandoubler doesn't do a better job than this!

[alexh]

Originally Posted by ajk

Right, so at the moment the IDE hard drive that I have in the computer is a bit slow to start, so after power up I get the Kickstart screen, as expected. However, the monitor complains that the screenmode is not a supported one (even though it does display it). The first attached picture demonstrates this.

I'm not 100% familiar but I'd guess you have the PIV's scan doubler's scan rate conversion set to 1:1 so it starts up scan doubled to 31KHz but with a vertical refresh of 50Hz (PAL). Few monitors support 50Hz.

Originally Posted by ajk

I am greeted by a crazy resolution warning as seen in the second picture. I'm pretty sure I haven't defined that kind of mode anywhere; the PIV shouldn't even be capable of anything like that.

I get something like that as a glitch as it is going between native and RTG. It is only for a few moments.

Originally Posted by ajk

How can I check that what is defined in the PMTNG actually goes into the flash rom? It does seem to save it if I make changes, but how do I know? And why is the original cold boot using different settings?

http://www.sophisticated-development...onciertoIV.pdf

See pages 19 and 20 of the PDF above.

Here is some extra information about the PIV.

http://web.archive.org/web/200409250...com/picassoiv/

[ajk]

I'm not 100% familiar but I'd guess you have the PIV's scan doubler's scan rate conversion set to 1:1 so it starts up scan doubled to 31KHz but with a vertical refresh of 50Hz (PAL). Few monitors support 50Hz.

Yeah, though it does actually display it ok. But where can I change this then? In PicassoModeTNG I have set it to 75Hz and when I test the mode, it seems fine (well, there are a couple of image quality issues but that can wait for now).

Also If I change the screenmode in Workbench to, say, 640x256 PAL Hi-res, it works ok and the monitor reports it as 75Hz. Something is just different when the system boots up the first time. Apparently these settings only take effect after Workbench has been loaded, even though it claims to save to the onboard ROM.

I get something like that as a glitch as it is going between native and RTG. It is only for a few moments.

I can't get to the PicassoIV startup menu (shift during boot); when I try, I get the 300Hz problem. It doesn't go away with time. I tried blindly pressing space but that didn't change anything.

I also found that archived Picasso site earlier, but didn't see anything directly related to this problem. I'll have to check though if the firmware of the card could be updated.

[alexh]

Originally Posted by ajk

I can't get to the PicassoIV startup menu (shift during boot); when I try, I get the 300Hz problem. It doesn't go away with time. I tried blindly pressing space but that didn't change anything.

Hmmm. Perhaps the flicker fixer has lost it's default settings. I think mine did that once and it was fixed with software. Quite how I don't remember but I'll think about it... I may have force flashed 7.1 and then back to 7.4 or something like that?

Originally Posted by ajk

I'll have to check though if the firmware of the card could be updated.

Use the P4info tool found in the Picasso firmware update. Report back the printout.

http://sophisticated-development.de/...V&section=P-IV

There is a directory here called tools with one called FliFi... might be worth checking out?

[ajk]

Originally Posted by alexh

Hmmm. Perhaps the flicker fixer has lost it's default settings. I think mine did that once and it was fixed with software. Quite how I don't remember but I'll think about it... I may have force flashed 7.1 and then back to 7.4 or something like that?

I could try that, if you are at least reasonably sure it has helped you in the past. Can the card be ruined if the flash process fails or can you still reflash it (via the native screen if need be) again? It looks like this is already at 7.4 so there is no need to update as such.

Originally Posted by alexh

Use the P4info tool found in the Picasso firmware update. Report back the printout.

There is a directory here called tools with one called FliFi... might be worth checking out?

Here are the outputs:

Opened PicassoIV.resource 7.4 at $80156F4
p4res_boardcount 1
p4res_PALTiming    $800E098
p4res_NTSCTiming   $800E0B0
p4res_IntServer $8000420
p4res_IntServer->is_Node.ln_Pri  = 30
p4res_IntServer->is_Node.ln_Type = 2
p4res_IntServer->is_Node.ln_Name = "PicassoIV.resource"
p4res_IntServer->is_Data         = $080156F4
p4res_IntServer->is_Code         = $0800FED4

Board # 1
p4bi_Flags $80000800
  ZorroII Mode
  Board contains CL-GD5446 Rev.A
  connected to Color Monitor
  Used by Gfx-System
p4bi_MemoryBase1 $200000
p4bi_MemoryBase2 $400000
p4bi_GPPortBase $EA0000
p4bi_RegisterBase $EB0000
p4bi_ConfigBase $EA0000
p4bi_MMIOBase $EA8000
p4bi_Modules $3
  is connected to Video-Slot (FlickerFixer active)
  is connected to AA-Video-Slot (24 bit capable)
p4bi_BridgeRevision $1
p4bi_FlickerFixerRevision $5
p4bi_BankingSetting $7
p4bi_AudioSettings $0
p4bi_IntStatus $80
  interrupt                  $08149538
  interrupt->is_Node.ln_Pri  100
  interrupt->is_Node.ln_Type 2
  interrupt->is_Node.ln_Name "VBInt PicassoIV (0)"
  interrupt->is_Data         $081494F4
  interrupt->is_Code         $08145388
p4bi_PabloConfig $00000000

and

QuickHack Productions ® present... the PicassoIV FlickerFixer mini-tool
PAL:  frame rate: 75Hz, pixel clock: 43295449Hz
NTSC: frame rate: 75Hz, pixel clock: 36252413Hz

[alexh]

I have no idea if this is your problem but :

p4bi_BridgeRevision $1
p4bi_FlickerFixerRevision $5

These should read $4 and $7.

This shows this is a very early PIV. To upgrade it you have to exchange two chips with MASTATABS (aka Tobias Seiler) if he is still selling them.

[ajk]

Ok, well I could always drop him an email if you know his address..? Still, since the scandoubler is obviously working fine as such (both after cold boot and when I test the modes after workbench has loaded), anyone have ideas as to what I should make of the boot menu problem?

[alexh]

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/P...96/message/882

I've had a similar problem after adjusting the PAL FlickerFixer-Mode to my needs. After that I also didn't get any native Amiga-Screens before the Picasso-Monitor was started by Workbench. The solution for my problem was to delete the two FF-Modes (PAL and NTSC) in the list of favourite modes in PicassoModeTNG (the list on the right side) and then do a "save as default Picasso Modes" from the menu. As these modes are ALWAYS available the Picasso comes up after a reboot with factory default values for the native screens and the Early startup menu (for example) was visible again.

MATATABS is a member of several forums and has his own website. Sophisticated development is also his website.

http://eab.abime.net/member.php?u=9408

http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=3578

http://www.themaster.de/

[ajk]

Excellent, that sounds like something I need to try then. If it doesn't help I'll see about contacting mastatabs. I'll post an update here later, probably won't have time to test anything more today. Thanks!

[ajk]

Hi again,

I tried to reset those scandoubler modes now and it did indeed help, no more 313Hz weirdness There is still something going on with the cold boot thing, the output remains at 49Hz until Workbench, or at least some part of it is loaded up. Could it be that the PIV behaviour changes after setpatch has been run or something?

Still, it's not a big issue I guess. Any games I'm going to run on this system will more than likely be via WHDLoad, and even if I need to load from floppy, doing a soft reboot after Workbench has first loaded works fine (it only goes to the 49Hz mode after a cold boot).

There is another problem however, the somewhat weird output resolution of the scandoubler: 760x603. This LCD monitor I'm using doesn't really like stuff that is not 800x600, 1024x768 or some other "standard" resolution. Other modes have static banding that can't completely be eliminated with the phase or clock settings of the display:



I don't suppose there is any way to get the scandoubler to output something else? Just adding 20 pixels of black on both sides and getting rid of 3 vertical lines would bring everything in line. I do of course realize that back when this card was new, almost all monitors were CRT.

[alexh]

Sorry, no idea. I've got a CRT which reports 800x600 but then I've got FliFi $7

So you can enter the PIV early startup menu now? Shift on reset?

[Calgor]

You should be able to change some other characteristics of the scandoubled mode using picassomodetng so maybe your monitor can detect it better. I didn't think the output was 760x603, where did you get that from?

My picasso used to have some strange 0Hz on cold boot and maybe sometimes on reset until i reflashed it. There are some old threads on EAB around that (it has an element of danger of course as noted in those threads)

[alexh]

You will need the hacked P4downgradeflash program which flashes to 1.11 and then upgrade to 7.4 but I'd stay away from it as long as possible.

[ajk]

Originally Posted by alexh

Sorry, no idea. I've got a CRT which reports 800x600 but then I've got FliFi $7

Well it's reported 800x600 here too, but I think that's just the monitor firmware rounding it up to what it thinks it should be.

Originally Posted by alexh

So you can enter the PIV early startup menu now? Shift on reset?

Yeah, it works now. Not that there is an awful lot you can do in there though, just "interlaced capture" and switch between PAL and NTSC.

Originally Posted by Calgor

You should be able to change some other characteristics of the scandoubled mode using picassomodetng so maybe your monitor can detect it better. I didn't think the output was 760x603, where did you get that from?

At least on my system the only thing you can really change is the refresh rate. See image in the first post for the 760x603 number

[ajk]

Well, I tested with a third monitor now, and the results are better. No banding at all (slight moiré effect from the camera again though) and image is very stable.

I think I'll consider getting a slightly smaller 4:3 or 5:4 ViewSonic monitor from the same era, and hope the same results carry through to that. In principle they can also handle 50Hz, so scrolling effects should be minimised.

[ajk]

Well, I found a little 15" Viewsonic and it does the 50Hz modes quite nicely. Unfortunately however it does suffer from the vertical bands a little bit, so while the scrolling is perfect, the image otherwise still needs work.

However in the mean time I managed to coax the earlier Fujitsu-Siemens into displaying the scandoubler output without bands, see new Superfrog photo attached below. While this one will never do 50Hz or 100Hz, at least now the image looks great and for non-scrolling games is pretty much perfect. It's not too bad with platformers either but naturally there is some jerkiness.

I think this monitor will now complement the A4000 nicely, and the other one I got should do well with any A500 or A1200 with an Indivision, since the weird output resolution should then be no problem.


P.S. Again the slight diagonal pattern is moiré from taking a photo of the LCD - to the eye colours are as smooth as they appear on the right hand side of the image

[MastaTabs]

Since I found a card with the same problem I managed to create an updated Firmware for the PIV which fixes this issue. Please download and try it. It has already successfully been tested by some people on a1k.org

http://www.themaster.de/P4FlashUpdate.lha

regs Tobias

[ajk]

Hello,

that's absolutely brilliant! Only in the Amiga scene... I'll have to give it a try just as soon as I get home (the resolution warning issue returned after I again altered the scandoubler settings from the defaults).

By the way, are you able to say whether it would be possible to make the scandoubler output configurable, for example to 640x480 and/or 800x600, or would something like that constitute a major overhaul in the firmware? Even just adding 20 pixels of black on either side and cropping 3 pixels away from the vertical height (and whatever is equivalent for NTSC) would make a world of difference with LCD monitors.


Thanks!

[MastaTabs]

I've been tinkering with something like that in the backyard of my head. But time is an issue these days.

Lets see when I get some time to get back to it.

[MastaTabs]

just made the Update 'officially' available

http://www.sophisticated-development.de/