Official update to OS 3.1 from Hyperion

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by matthey

----><8
Doing the math we have 2402 x 250 = 600500 Euros. Some of the boards are likely of the 300 Euro variety so this is a conservative estimate. I have little doubt the number will reach 1 million euros eventually even if the estimate is jumping the gun. Of course this is not all profit but does make jarp's point that 68k users are willing to spend. It also shows there is a sizable 68k market. I would love to see unit sales numbers for the FPGA Arcade and Mist too. With them, I wouldn't be surprised if there has been over 1 million euros spent on 68k Amiga capable hardware in the last few years.

Willing to spend on hardware: Absolutely.. I mean.. who else would think €500 for a Blizzard 1260 is a bargain ;-)
But pay for software? That's another story.. Maybe I'm wrong but It's the "hardware can't be copied but software can" mentality at work here.. still here.. after all these years..

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

"hardware can't be copied but software can" mentality at work here.. still here.. after all these years..

Is that what drives this behavior?
Or is it that there isn't much in the way of software that people actually want to buy?
For example, the thread's subject, this "update" of 3.1, is not really worth the hassle, is it?

There is a chicken and egg situation and to me further hardware development is quite pointless when we don't have enough software developers making good games and programs for what we -already have-.
"But if you don't buy the software, there's no encouragement!", and this could be true. But personally I don't feel inclined to buy just any garbage that happens to run on an Amiga. I don't even think that is the solution.

[Samurai_Crow]

Re: NeoGeo and all
The homebrew scene on Amiga is not big enough to be sustainable. By incorporating multiple 68000 based systems in the SAGA core this gets bypassed. Make sense?

Re:68080 efficiency
Opcode fusion allows combination of two opcodes to execute as one in the same pipeline.

Opcode bonding allows dependent pairs of opcodes to be executed in parallel by breaking the dependent chain.

[B14ck W01f]

AmigaOS was dead as soon as C= declared bankruptcy as far I'm concerned.

[jarp]

Originally Posted by Akira

Yes exactly, and this is why I said made-up mathematics. The poster I replied to said "almost a million euros". In the eyes of fanatics, somehow, that number is "almost a million euros" or somehow 2400*250 is almost 1000000.

Let's play for a while that no Vampires has been shipped yet. There is queue of 2400 vampires right now, that's only number which is public and which is most likely true. V600 is 250 euros and V500 is 300 euros. It's unknown how pending orders are split between those two but lets assume 50-50 and make average price of the Vampire 275 euros.

It is also unknown to which countries Vampires are mainly going, but e.g. in my home country import taxes are high and shipping costs + import taxes brought up V600 price from 250 to whopping 350 euros for me (yes, it hurt badly, indeed). V500 would've been almost 400 euros! Most of the Europe is similar. So average cost for the end user per Vampire would be, what, let's say 340 euros assuming half goes to Norther America so no taxes? So after those 2400 Vampires has been shipped, then people have spent 816 000 euros, which can be considered to be already quite close to one million euros. Which was my point exactly, people have been and are willing to spend million euros for Vampire hardware only.

Oh but wait, they have been shipping Vampires since the beginning 2016. Of course at first they were cheap and production was low, but they went to full mass production at the end of last year and it's now May already. Don't know how many they have shipped already, 1000 or so? Oh wow, that would bring total amount of money people have spent or planned to spent already to one million euros and more.

Of course this is pure speculating since we do not know real numbers, but I think approximations above are on the right decade.

just showing how fanatics tend to over-exaggerate reality and warp information important to size up hobbyist activities like this one.

You may want to reconsider calling me reality warping over-exaggerating fanatic if you cannot do *your* maths right. I take that as a personal insult from you, Akira.

[utri007]

Vampire would cost about 370€ here in Finland. 2200 is number of those how expressed interest, not of those who ordered it. I expressed interest, but decided not to order it. I know several who made same decision.

[wXR]

Originally Posted by Akira

Is that what drives this behavior?
Or is it that there isn't much in the way of software that people actually want to buy?
For example, the thread's subject, this "update" of 3.1, is not really worth the hassle, is it?

There is a chicken and egg situation and to me further hardware development is quite pointless when we don't have enough software developers making good games and programs for what we -already have-.
"But if you don't buy the software, there's no encouragement!", and this could be true. But personally I don't feel inclined to buy just any garbage that happens to run on an Amiga. I don't even think that is the solution.

Well said Akira.

There is no financial incentive for commercial Amiga software, and there never again will be.

It's pretty simple: Quality software takes a tremendous amount of time to produce, and financial rewards are not guaranteed even assuming release on a mainstream device. Thus, if someone puts "quality" time into something for niche machines, he is actually not sane to expect rewards even slightly commensurate with his input. No surprise then that most new Amiga software is low-quality and not worth paying for.

[Olaf Barthel]

Originally Posted by wXR

Well said Akira.

There is no financial incentive for commercial Amiga software, and there never again will be.

It's pretty simple: Quality software takes a tremendous amount of time to produce, and financial rewards are not guaranteed even assuming release on a mainstream device. Thus, if someone puts "quality" time into something for niche machines, he is actually not sane to expect rewards even slightly commensurate with his input. No surprise then that most new Amiga software is low-quality and not worth paying for.

Some people are sufficiently stupid to try it anyway: look at me!

[wXR]

But you do it for the love, Olaf. You're not paying your daily bread that way. Unless I'm wildly, wildly mistaken.

[Olaf Barthel]

Originally Posted by wXR

But you do it for the love, Olaf. You're not paying your daily bread that way. Unless I'm wildly, wildly mistaken.

Well, you got me. There hasn't been any real money in this market for a little more than a decade. Still, I would not want to view the situation as quite so negative as might be otherwise be advisable

You cannot make a living writing Amiga software, but you can still make something that counts, for others and for yourself.

The Amiga to me has always been the tool to enable and empower the user and developer both. It still manages to accomplish this, and the culture which grew around this kind of attitude (bickering and trolling aside) has not faded away.

[wXR]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it is negative that one cannot make any real money with Amiga software. On the contrary, that's just fine if we treat this like what it is: a hobbyist platform. Besides, one cannot make money from most software.

It's good that you do it for the love Olaf, and three cheers to you for that.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by wXR

There is no financial incentive for commercial Amiga software, and there never again will be.

It's pretty simple: Quality software takes a tremendous amount of time to produce, and financial rewards are not guaranteed even assuming release on a mainstream device. Thus, if someone puts "quality" time into something for niche machines, he is actually not sane to expect rewards even slightly commensurate with his input. No surprise then that most new Amiga software is low-quality and not worth paying for.

Never say never. There is currently insufficient financial incentive but that doesn't mean there will always be. This is a problem with the upper class AmigaOS 4 market also. A-Eon can raise the price of hardware to cover the cost of low quantity production and the upper class zealots pay for it. Their hardware sales are likely several million euros but they have been unable to solve the software problem despite multiple strategies. Even most AmigaOS 4 owners are not willing to pay ten times a healthy market price for software like they do for hardware. The solution to the software problem is mass produced very affordable hardware even if sold near cost to bring the market back. A-Eon likely made a feeble attempt with the PPC Tabor but low end PPC has never been good and doesn't have the retro appeal. A 68k hardware can have a tiny foot print (smaller than a Raspberry Pi in many ways) and can be attractive to the retro (multiple 68k computers and consoles), hobbyist and embedded markets. I believe selling tens of thousands of units would be easy but much more is possible. Laugh and call me crazy if you want but the much narrower market NES Classic Edition just recently sold 1.5 million units and was the 2nd best selling console in the world with people waiting in lines and paying several hundred dollars for the last few units produced. The sad thing is that the Amiga probably has the developer talent and investors to make it happen but only Amiga makes it impossible.

[wXR]

@matthey

"Their hardware sales are likely several million euros" - do you have any actual evidence or proof that any of these machines have sold more than 50-100 units?

And about the NES Classic: That's a novelty item cashing in on the nostalgia factor of a home gaming console that sold over 60M units. Amiga never had anything remotely comparable to those numbers, nor would it lend itself to that kind of product in any case. A cheap, shrunk-down Amiga might appeal to you and me, but it isn't going to move serious numbers under any circumstance. I am definitely saying never.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by wXR

"Their hardware sales are likely several million euros" - do you have any actual evidence or proof that any of these machines have sold more than 50-100 units?

You only have to sell 1000 units at an average price of 1000 Euros to generate 1 million euros of sales (the AmigaOne x1000 and x5000 were/are more expensive than this for a whole system). Trevor did give a broad range of 200 to 2000 AmigaOne X1000 units sold and they obviously sold enough to make the x5000 viable. I haven't heard any x5000 numbers yet. I would be surprised if the x1000 and x5000 sales combined were not at least 500 units. The Tabor should be online soon and will likely result in a few hundred sales as well. If A-Eon has not already reached 1 million euros of hardware sales then they likely soon will but this is a big number for them too.

Originally Posted by wXR

And about the NES Classic: That's a novelty item cashing in on the nostalgia factor of a home gaming console that sold over 60M units. Amiga never had anything remotely comparable to those numbers, nor would it lend itself to that kind of product in any case. A cheap, shrunk-down Amiga might appeal to you and me, but it isn't going to move serious numbers under any circumstance. I am definitely saying never.

Sure, the NES Classic was a social fad hit. It had the right features, right price and right timing. You can never count on this especially with such a narrowly targeted product which is more like a high tech toy. I'm suggesting a much wider appealing (Atari ST, Sega Genesis/CD, Neo-Geo, x68000, 68k arcade, low end GP computing, education, embedded, etc.) and useful product which includes many customers outside of the current Amiga market and with different interests. This reduces risk as it can be successful in some areas without being a total flop.

Our perspectives are certainly different. You are willing to bet on a sure loser (no return if you are successful) which creates chaos while hoping for organization out of the chaos (freeing the AmigaOS into the wilds). Were you involved in the Occupy Wall Street movement by any chance? I would take a long shot at a risky investment which could create a sustainable market with cash flow while restoring the Amiga. Of course I had conditions which must be met to reduce uncertainty. Uncertainty is one of the biggest hurdles in investment and the current Amiga situation has too many lose ends to be investable but things change and never is a very long time.

[E-Penguin]

If there was some kind of Vampire-eqsue multi core M68k derivative with enhanced video and sound (SAGA?) on a dev board for a reasonable price, it could be quite popular. Competing with the raspberry pi might be a stretch, but a single board, multimedia computer with a vast catalogue of games yet capable of modern computing tasks... It's not out of the question.

For it to really be a success though it would need the backing of a company with the rights to the relevant IP. Cloanto, Team Apollo, Hyperion, iComp together in a harmonious tetrarchy. I shall not be holding my breath.

[Samurai_Crow]

Keep in mind that Team Apollo is working on AROS 68k in case it became necessary to avoid iComp and Hyperion to use the open source CybergraphX 3 API included with AROS.

[michaelz]

[QUOTE=Samurai_Crow;1156308]Re: NeoGeo and all
The homebrew scene on Amiga is not big enough to be sustainable. By incorporating multiple 68000 based systems in the SAGA core this gets bypassed. Make sense?
/QUOTE]


Nope. Sounds like; because we can't do one thing right enough to make money from it, we go fling some poo to the ceiling fan and see what sticks.

If there are companies making money from PPC systems, what is definitely a smaller market, then a 68k system that says it's on par and far cheaper than the PPC systems should be able to make money from it.

We see companies spending money on making specific connectors that are no longer made, on software that serves a special goal, on development for new hardware and making a living from it. How can a team of enthusiastic people that are all the rage, not make enough money from this scene.

I would guess iComp sells less accelerators as the Apollo team has in the last six months. Just adding more systems so those communities probably won't buy into a Vampire, is a waste of resources. I don't believe (but that's just based on another guess) that a pure NeoGeo fan is interested in an accelerator card for an Amiga to play his games. A stand alone product, I would understand, but a Swiss Army knife that would force people in buying an Amiga while they probably don't see any added value in it? No, I don't see it.

But then again, if the Apollo team wants it for their own reasons, good luck. Another reason for me that this won't be a saviour product for this community.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Re: NeoGeo and all
The homebrew scene on Amiga is not big enough to be sustainable. By incorporating multiple 68000 based systems in the SAGA core this gets bypassed. Make sense?

That doesn't make any sense at all, how does adding emulation for another system benefit Amiga software development?

Originally Posted by jarp

You may want to reconsider calling me reality warping over-exaggerating fanatic if you cannot do *your* maths right. I take that as a personal insult from you, Akira.

It wasn't meant as an insult to you, and still, speculation isn't proper mathematics. My point is, these made up numbers (because we have no real numbers) are not good enough to measure how much the Amiga "scene" is willing to spend, because we don't even know what kind of people bought these units.
Don't take it personal, sorry if you feel offended, is a critique to the whole of the Amiga community which, you have to admit, leans on zealotry more than often.
The A1200 case was another good example, first time they bombed, second time it worked, and then another one came that was probably better and it bombed... it's just hard to tell.

Originally Posted by wXR

There is no financial incentive for commercial Amiga software, and there never again will be.

It has nothing to do with commercial incentive.
Look at the C64, Spectrum or MSX scenes. Plenty of regular, good quality development going on. Everyone driven by passion, with solid peripherals bringing computers to a certain level of modernity, yet a very precise, standard, fixed base platform, which the Amiga lacks. A C64 is a C64, but what is an Amiga? It's been discussed a million times in these boards and others. This is yet another one of the problems haunting this platform forever.

I think you are very confused in thinking the only reason a developer or group of only work if there's enough monetary incentive involved. After learning about your background, I am not surprised you think that way, but I invite you to spend some time in another computer platform's scene with a more active community to see what happens
(and before people say "nut those 8-bit machines are easier to develop for", there are also very active scenes in things like the X680x0 scene in Japan)

And none of it has to do with open sourcing either.

[Samurai_Crow]

You guys have a weird definition of being unable to do one thing right.

The performance of SAGA will benefit from having raided the expired patent bin.

[wXR]

Originally Posted by Akira

I think you are very confused in thinking the only reason a developer or group of only work if there's enough monetary incentive involved. After learning about your background, I am not surprised you think that way, but I invite you to spend some time in another computer platform's scene with a more active community to see what happens
(and before people say "nut those 8-bit machines are easier to develop for", there are also very active scenes in things like the X680x0 scene in Japan)

And none of it has to do with open sourcing either.

If you are speaking to me, you are not reading what I am writing very carefully. That is precisely opposite of what I think, and it is why I highlighted the word "commercial" rather than saying "Amiga software is untenable".

In any case, I spend plenty of time with other platforms and I know what you mean. However, the difference between the Amiga scene and all others is that Amiga has sizeable population that still believes in some kind of commercial revival. Other platform hobbyists are just doing it for fun, and consequently they don't take intellectual property very seriously. While you may believe that "none of it" has anything to do with open source, in fact the spirit in those scenes is precisely the same: People feeling free (without fear) to guide their own hobbyist platform's future. They generally don't have legal trolls shadowing over them saying "no". In some cases, such as the Atari (16/32-bit) and Acorn scenes, the platform is heavily driven by open source development with proper licenses, further ennobling that spirit.