Street Fighter 2 OCS Version Discussions

[DanScott]

We can continue any OCS/ECS related discussions here, and leave them out of the AGA thread now

[lesta_smsc]

I'll start... so I played the original Street Fighter 2 on my A600 a few days ago. Incredible how slow it is compared to other consoles! I was quite disappointed: all this time my memory of the game was incredible yet now I realise just how bad I was considering the time I had to react lol.

Music was still excellent thought!

[Tigerskunk]

Would be cool if some mod could the all the last pages of the other thread and copy them to here...

[d4rk3lf]

Cool, our own clan thread!
We'll ban anyone who speaks of more then 32 colors.

They have their Aga thread, so let them loose their souls!
(quote from Godfather).

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by DanScott

We can continue any OCS/ECS related discussions here, and leave them out of the AGA thread now

Dissapointed as I was with the US Gold version, I realised it could have been so much worse judging by previous US Gold released efforts.

[d4rk3lf]

Yeah... totally...
It could have been much worse.

This is, at least, playable to some extend (clunky, slow.. etc... but still), unlike Final Fight for example, that is totally different (lower) league of playability.

[DanScott]

So I've been playing around with some ideas over the last day or 2, regarding dual playfield OCS, good use of hardware sprites, and good use of copper to recolour images on a per line basis... this is what I've come up with that I'll try to get working in code next week some time


So let's take a gradient done with the copper...



We can add one hardware sprite and repeat it across the screen with the copper too.... we can also scroll this very easily



Time to add our back playfield with a separate palette per line (not strictly true, not all colours change per line, but you get the idea The less colour changes we have to do, the better. This can scroll at a separate speed to the roof made from the sprite.



Oh.. we can use more hardware sprites here, scrolling at a slower speed than the roof sprite below it for a 3rd layer of parallax



Time to add the floor.. it's the same playfield as above, but separate palette again, and scrolling each line to create the perspective shift effect



Now to add the front playfield with the characters



There's some hardware sprites can be used down there.. let's add that "sign board"... we'll have to shrink it's height though so it doesn't clash with the "house" in the background ( inadvertently probably creating some Japanese swear word in the process )



Now we need the score board.. that can go on the same playfield as the players, but will have to use the same palette. Yes I know it's not Chun-Li and Bison.. just grabbed it from an image I found online



Something's missing.. but we can still use more hardware sprites for this... the shadows




Ok, so the positioning of a couple of elements are not 100% correct, but the general idea and layout and hardware usage definitely fits. Probably could add more hardware sprites at the top for the clouds too

[DanScott]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Cool, our own clan thread!
We'll ban anyone who speaks of more then 32 colors.

They have their Aga thread, so let them loose their souls!
(quote from Godfather).

Sorry, I have to say, that I much prefer Master484's palette in the 8 colour conversion.. the details in the characters don't seem to get so lost in his palette

[JoeJoe]

holy shit! That's really impressive. Respect.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by DanScott

So I've been playing around with some ideas over the last day or 2, regarding dual playfield OCS, good use of hardware sprites, and good use of copper to recolour images on a per line basis... this is what I've come up with that I'll try to get working in code next week some time


So let's take a gradient done with the copper...



We can add one hardware sprite and repeat it across the screen with the copper too.... we can also scroll this very easily



Time to add our back playfield with a separate palette per line (not strictly true, not all colours change per line, but you get the idea The less colour changes we have to do, the better. This can scroll at a separate speed to the roof made from the sprite.



Oh.. we can use more hardware sprites here, scrolling at a slower speed than the roof sprite below it for a 3rd layer of parallax



Time to add the floor.. it's the same playfield as above, but separate palette again, and scrolling each line to create the perspective shift effect



Now to add the front playfield with the characters



There's some hardware sprites can be used down there.. let's add that "sign board"... we'll have to shrink it's height though so it doesn't clash with the "house" in the background ( inadvertently probably creating some Japanese swear word in the process )



Now we need the score board.. that can go on the same playfield as the players, but will have to use the same palette. Yes I know it's not Chun-Li and Bison.. just grabbed it from an image I found online



Something's missing.. but we can still use more hardware sprites for this... the shadows




Ok, so the positioning of a couple of elements are not 100% correct, but the general idea and layout and hardware usage definitely fits. Probably could add more hardware sprites at the top for the clouds too

I was amazed seeing this at 3 o'clock in the night when you send me this, but decided to wait till the morning to write you my appreciations...

Hard to believe this is dual playfield, as vibrant as it looks.

[DanScott]

There do have to be some compromises in the gfx layers though.

For example...



This building on the right has to go... even the SNES is doing something funky there (it's using sprites for the missing section), but we could probably add more to the right hand side of the main back playfield

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by DanScott

Sorry, I have to say, that I much prefer Master484's palette in the 8 colour conversion.. the details in the characters don't seem to get so lost in his palette

But of course mate.
I am trying to learn to create good conversions.
Consider my posting of sprites, only so I get tips from someone what I do wrong, and how to improve.

Anyone can use my converted sprites - or don't.
I like Master's sprites very much too.

Btw, great work in progress!

[roondar]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Cool, our own clan thread!
We'll ban anyone who speaks of more then 32 colors.

Well, there's always 64 colour EHB mode..
*runs and hides*

Originally Posted by DanScott

So I've been playing around with some ideas over the last day or 2, regarding dual playfield OCS, good use of hardware sprites, and good use of copper to recolour images on a per line basis... this is what I've come up with that I'll try to get working in code next week some time

So let's take a gradient done with the copper...

We can add one hardware sprite and repeat it across the screen with the copper too.... we can also scroll this very easily

Time to add our back playfield with a separate palette per line (not strictly true, not all colours change per line, but you get the idea The less colour changes we have to do, the better. This can scroll at a separate speed to the roof made from the sprite.

Oh.. we can use more hardware sprites here, scrolling at a slower speed than the roof sprite below it for a 3rd layer of parallax

Time to add the floor.. it's the same playfield as above, but separate palette again, and scrolling each line to create the perspective shift effect

Now to add the front playfield with the characters

There's some hardware sprites can be used down there.. let's add that "sign board"... we'll have to shrink it's height though so it doesn't clash with the "house" in the background ( inadvertently probably creating some Japanese swear word in the process )

Now we need the score board.. that can go on the same playfield as the players, but will have to use the same palette. Yes I know it's not Chun-Li and Bison.. just grabbed it from an image I found online

Something's missing.. but we can still use more hardware sprites for this... the shadows

Ok, so the positioning of a couple of elements are not 100% correct, but the general idea and layout and hardware usage definitely fits. Probably could add more hardware sprites at the top for the clouds too

This looks extremely good!
(though it does appear the score bar might cause a requirement to fully cookie-cut blit the characters, which might be a tad of an issue on OCS machines given their size)

Any thoughts on the memory question/problem?

[DanScott]

Originally Posted by roondar

Well, there's always 64 colour EHB mode..
*runs and hides*


This looks extremely good!
(though it does appear the score bar might cause a requirement to fully cookie-cut blit the characters, which might be a tad of an issue on OCS machines given their size)

Any thoughts on the memory question/problem?

512k chip +512k should be enough I am sure. Don't think memory should be a problem. If I can flip the characters realtime, then I'll do that.

Scoreboard would be drawn after the characters The energy bar will just be blitted D=A... only the font needs some thought... might get away with just or'ing it, as the characters only go briefly into that area.. (compromises...)

Anyway.. the scoreboards just a minor issue.. might even just display it above/below the main play area

[DanScott]

My ultimate plan is to not do SF2

But to create an engine where a new game can be constructed.

So rather than trying to get the SF2 background working within the limitation of OCS... we have backgrounds that are made specifically to utilise what we can do to the best effect

[DanScott]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

But of course mate.
I am trying to learn to create good conversions.
Consider my posting of sprites, only so I get tips from someone what I do wrong, and how to improve.

Anyone can use my converted sprites - or don't.
I like Master's sprites very much too.

Btw, great work in progress!

Thanks

I'd like to keep this thread purely for technical discussions if possible. So for gfx advice, might be a better thread for that

[d4rk3lf]

So, how many frames (approximately) per sprite you guys thing it should have?
I've seen arcade sprite sheet yesterday, and it has a lots of frames... a LOT!

I'd pick Snes, not only they have reduced sized sprites, but very importantly, they reduced the sprites number in a way that animation suffers least. I think you can't just pick every second frame, and reduce it that way efficiently, but rather picking only important ones for the motion and pose. Snes already did it, so why not use it?

Ok, let's see my noobish Amiga math...
(using snes sprites as sample)
I cut sprite of Barlog to only one frame iff 8 colors, and it was 2.2 kb.
Snes version has around 120 frames, so that give us 264kb per character
Or (approximately) 528kb for 2 characters.

Would the 400+ kb be enough for the rest (background, AI, sprite objects.. and everything else you planned)?

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by DanScott

Thanks

I'd like to keep this thread purely for technical discussions if possible. So for gfx advice, might be a better thread for that

Ok, sure.
I just posted question about sprites, but it's kind of technical stuff anyway.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by DanScott

So I've been playing around with some ideas over the last day or 2, regarding dual playfield OCS, good use of hardware sprites, and good use of copper to recolour images on a per line basis... this is what I've come up with that I'll try to get working in code next week some time


So let's take a gradient done with the copper...



We can add one hardware sprite and repeat it across the screen with the copper too.... we can also scroll this very easily



Time to add our back playfield with a separate palette per line (not strictly true, not all colours change per line, but you get the idea The less colour changes we have to do, the better. This can scroll at a separate speed to the roof made from the sprite.



Oh.. we can use more hardware sprites here, scrolling at a slower speed than the roof sprite below it for a 3rd layer of parallax



Time to add the floor.. it's the same playfield as above, but separate palette again, and scrolling each line to create the perspective shift effect



Now to add the front playfield with the characters



There's some hardware sprites can be used down there.. let's add that "sign board"... we'll have to shrink it's height though so it doesn't clash with the "house" in the background ( inadvertently probably creating some Japanese swear word in the process )



Now we need the score board.. that can go on the same playfield as the players, but will have to use the same palette. Yes I know it's not Chun-Li and Bison.. just grabbed it from an image I found online



Something's missing.. but we can still use more hardware sprites for this... the shadows




Ok, so the positioning of a couple of elements are not 100% correct, but the general idea and layout and hardware usage definitely fits. Probably could add more hardware sprites at the top for the clouds too

Youve already spent more effort than US Gold did in the brief time you looked at this.

Sadly, consideration for the ST rears its ugly head again with the US Gold version, I wouldnt presume it would have been much better, but not having to cater for the lowest common format certainly might have helped.

[DanScott]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

So, how many frames (approximately) per sprite you guys thing it should have?
I've seen arcade sprite sheet yesterday, and it has a lots of frames... a LOT!

I'd pick Snes, not only they have reduced sized sprites, but very importantly, they reduced the sprites number in a way that animation suffers least. I think you can't just pick every second frame, and reduce it that way efficiently, but rather picking only important ones for the motion and pose. Snes already did it, so why not use it?

Ok, let's see my noobish Amiga math...
(using snes sprites as sample)
I cut sprite of Barlog to only one frame iff 8 colors, and it was 2.2 kb.
Snes version has around 120 frames, so that give us 264kb per character
Or (approximately) 528kb for 2 characters.

Would the 400+ kb be enough for the rest (background, AI, sprite objects.. and everything else you planned)?

IFF is a file format with RLE unfortunately, so you can't really get a good idea from file size to be honest.

What really needs to be done, is to arrange all the frames for a character, perhaps reduce it to 16x16 tiles like McGeezer did, to reconstruct the frames.

There are probably a large number of animation frames that share the same bulk of the character, so animation frames need laying out on a page exactly pixel perfect to be able to find the matching tiles