Should I begin dumping my ADF's?

Medvind · 08 February 2005, 01:28

Well, as I'm dumping some non-TOSEC material I thought I'd might just aswell dump all other disks I have lying around aswell, to perhaps create some [!] dumps. I've tested a few game dumps already and come up with a few dupes, which I guess means they're good.

The question is: Is it worth it? Would these dumps/dupes even be verified as good dumps even if they match? It's a bit over 200 disks so I'm not doing it if it ends up meaningless.

Edit: I might add that these disks has been in my possession for over 10 years, hence they have not been dumped by anyone else. And I know that they're not many steps from the original scene DMS'.

andreas · 08 February 2005, 14:31

Quote:

The question is: Is it worth it? Would these dumps/dupes even be verified as good dumps even if they match?

I think what you mean is "even if they do NOT match"

If they do match, they're not needed.

The crucial point is to get versions that are not yet in, so I do think your disks are worth dumping. Dump them, run them against ALL of the five crucial dats: compilations - games, adf - games, coverdisks (!) and - do not forget - public domain games and applications.
The stuff that remains after deleting or moving the recognized disks is the interesting one.

And these are mostly rare versions (sometimes not recognized because they're ridden with viruses, though)
So just dump them. My 2c.

[idoru] · 08 February 2005, 16:53

Yep, I know it sounds wrong but...if you don't dump...you won't know if any needed dumping

Medvind · 08 February 2005, 16:55

No, I actually do mean "even if they match".

I guess my real question is:
Is there any interest in TOSEC to verify good ADF dumps at all? Is it a goal of yours to put [!] flags behind all disks eventually or is your goal just to get as many [a]'s as possible? I ask this because I think there should lie an interest in finding out which ADF dump/s match the original cracked disk that were spread throughout the scene.

Of course different versions should be dumped, but not alternate versions of the same cracked game only with different highscore tables. The CRC and MD5 checking is so delicate that if any disk is modified in any way along it's path to the ADF dump, it's recognized as beeing different. Therefore, if two people in two different continents dump their cracked version of, lets say Monkey Island, and they end up having the same MD5 value, they most likely have an unmodified disk of the one supplied by the crackers themselves. In this case, there should be a 95% chance (if not higher) that these disks match the original scene disk.

See where I'm going with this?

I'm not interested in creating [a] dumps if the only difference is that some idiot saved his game on one of the game disks (which was the case with Settlers, disk 2 that I dumped the other day). Nothing else spectacular about it. The other 2 disks matched the ones in TOSEC, and disk 2 would have too if someone hadn't tried to save his game on it (not me!).

Sooo, since it's a lengthy procedure dumping disks, I'm just not dumping more [a]'s because of what I just described. It's sounds like I'm angry now, but I'm not, just giving my opinion

Or do you think that cracked games should never be given a [!] flag? I for one would like to have it, even if that disk spread by the group was faulty in some way. It was still the original scene version.

Medvind · 08 February 2005, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by [idoru]

Yep, I know it sounds wrong but...if you don't dump...you won't know if any needed dumping

True, but I just think it's a waste to dump disks that end up beeing dupes and therefore gets thrown away, without a thought in terms of "hey, wait a minute, if these disks match, it must mean they originated from the same source and might be identical to the groups 'original' ".

Then you could have 50 people throwing away dupes of the exact same disk, when they actually could have proven that this disk was from the original source.

[idoru] · 09 February 2005, 10:46

Well, for sure if dumps match on un-modified images made from originls they could be considered [!], but with adf it's not that easy re. the disk protection etc. - particularly games anyway (hence, CAPS).

With cracked etc, it would be nice to know which matched the original scene releases so they could be marked as such but they're not really "verified dumps from original media", which the [!] is used for.

Also, re. the alt's...I know it's not a perfect system & I know having 10 alts for a game isn't nice...but sometimes [a9] is the only 100% fully working version, and if it wasn't kept then there possibly might be no 100% working version at all. If only we had to time to fully playtest & examine everything the system would be better.

[idoru] · 09 February 2005, 15:56

We do re-jig the flags if an alt is proved to be better than the non alt etc.

Medvind · 09 February 2005, 16:39

Kodoichi: Depends on what kind of "original" you mean. Scene "original" or retail original?

Not to worry guys, I'm dumping every disk I have regardless.

But wouldn't it be a good idea to give verified scene "originals" some kind of flag too? Or some flag that indicates that the adf/dump is verified to be fully playable. As it is now, you can never be sure of that the one without any [a] flag is actually verified to be 100% playable.

andreas · 11 February 2005, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medvind

But wouldn't it be a good idea to give verified scene "originals" some kind of flag too?

A very good idea even.
As I now know what you actually meant!
Sorry for having jumped in, but you didn't write any word about yourself owning "original scene BBS dumps", so I couldn't guess what you meant by "match"!

Adderly · 01 March 2006, 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medvind

But wouldn't it be a good idea to give verified scene "originals" some kind of flag too?

Aye! a very good idea!
We have the [!] flag for verified good dump, but no Descriptor seems to be allowed... What i'm thinking of is to add some kind of information to the [!] flag if a file is an original scene BBS spreaded release.
example: [! osr] (for original scene release) or [! dms] or .... [insert your idea here]

This would be a usefull addition, we would get rid of a lot of wrong cracker flags on 2+ disk games and have all original scene releases identified!
I have many original dms files and so far have marked the Tosec adf version of them with a [dms] flag. That is of course not Tosec conform, but it's for my own collection and knowledge...
Maybe we can find a solution to bring life to Medvind's great idea!!!

Npl · 02 March 2006, 14:20

Wish I wouldve dumped mine while they were still useable (ie before my brother took over my room and spilled coke, beer and good-knows-what-else around).
I still remember having a Demo I cant find anywhere, and I certainly had some versions not in TOSEC, for example a *working* german Version of Future Wars.

Aral · 02 May 2006, 11:49

I've just started dumping all of my disks to adf. I have nearly 5000 disks sitting here still waiting to be done. (I was the librarian at our local c64 / amiga user group btw

)
So far i have found a fair few compilation game disks done by Australian groups that are not in TOSEC plus there is bound to be lots of other games that were "imported" into Australia with a little group screen at the start. I also have roughly 600 original games here also (not sure how to rip to adf if protected atm) and hundreds of Mag coverdisks.

After reading this forum for the last couple of years and registering a few times (and then losing interest in Amiga so my account disappeared..LOL), i thought it time to get the finger out and start working on these before it was too late. I am lucky in a way because all the disks in in airtight containers in shelves under my house, so they were not in the elements at all. I have transferred a hundred or so to date with no errors.

Once completed i will scan the images with the current TOSEC dat. Any that aren't renamed with the dat are disks that are needed by TOSEC i gather. Do they get uploaded to the Zone? Also with the copy protected originals and coverdisks, are they needed for TOSEC as well as SPS?? Whats the best way to deal with them.

Thanks for reading

BippyM · 02 May 2006, 12:28

hmmm... It'll be a lot of work ripping the disks to adf just to find 99% are already in tosec!

But saying that 1% might be something ultra rare

I have a lot of Australian stuff on CD that I am going to rename.. and I already added a lot of stuff from down under to the dats a couple yrs ago.. I'm currently working on an 8 CD set from US so err... might be a while!

Originals you'd need to contact the SPS guys

Aral · 02 May 2006, 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by bippym

But saying that 1% might be something ultra rare

Thats what i think also mate, if i can get a few its worth it

BippyM · 02 May 2006, 13:31

then go for it

demoniac · 02 May 2006, 20:28

I dumped my 700 disks collection and I thought it was worth it as there were several things that's not in TOSEC. Plus, I have a sanity check when it comes to all the different alternate dumps of a same release. I know that most of mine will work 100% rather than what's floating in cyberspace.

Aral · 03 May 2006, 02:56

So far i have dumped roughly 400 disks and have after scanning with TIM and CLRMAME pro have found 60 odd alternate versions.

One strange game i came across was Speed by Stefan Meyer-Kahlen and Volken Randt. After searching everywhere for a game description i found it on AMI SEctor One. I ended up finding a couple of versions of this in the TOSEC PD area. The version i have here is a retail version of the game. On the label it says "Speed @1988 Softgang - Amiga Version" I have the box and manual here somewhere so will have to scan when i find and add to zone with image.

Is this game really a PD game or a commercial one?

IFW · 03 May 2006, 14:42

Maybe commercial.
Could you get in contact with SPS and dump the originals that are not listed in the games' section using the SPS tool?

www.softpres.org

andreas · 04 May 2006, 03:05

@Aral
Many thanks, HOL entry has been completed.

Aral · 04 May 2006, 08:16

Andreas, i will scan the disk shortly for you. The box etc is missing atm so when i find i will scan for you

IFW - i will contact them shortly.

Since starting ripping i have been in contact with a few of the old user group friends and have been given another 2000 disks and 5000 5 1/2" disks and disk drive. I havent opened any of the disks yet so not sure how many originals are there.

08 February 2005, 01:28	#1
Medvind Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Age: 45 Posts: 145	Should I begin dumping my ADF's? (verifying good dumps) Well, as I'm dumping some non-TOSEC material I thought I'd might just aswell dump all other disks I have lying around aswell, to perhaps create some [!] dumps. I've tested a few game dumps already and come up with a few dupes, which I guess means they're good. The question is: Is it worth it? Would these dumps/dupes even be verified as good dumps even if they match? It's a bit over 200 disks so I'm not doing it if it ends up meaningless. Edit: I might add that these disks has been in my possession for over 10 years, hence they have not been dumped by anyone else. And I know that they're not many steps from the original scene DMS'. Last edited by Medvind; 08 February 2005 at 18:36.

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08 February 2005, 16:53	#3
[idoru] Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: UK Posts: 246	Yep, I know it sounds wrong but...if you don't dump...you won't know if any needed dumping

08 February 2005, 16:55	#4
Medvind Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Age: 45 Posts: 145	No, I actually do mean "even if they match". I guess my real question is: Is there any interest in TOSEC to verify good ADF dumps at all? Is it a goal of yours to put [!] flags behind all disks eventually or is your goal just to get as many [a]'s as possible? I ask this because I think there should lie an interest in finding out which ADF dump/s match the original cracked disk that were spread throughout the scene. Of course different versions should be dumped, but not alternate versions of the same cracked game only with different highscore tables. The CRC and MD5 checking is so delicate that if any disk is modified in any way along it's path to the ADF dump, it's recognized as beeing different. Therefore, if two people in two different continents dump their cracked version of, lets say Monkey Island, and they end up having the same MD5 value, they most likely have an unmodified disk of the one supplied by the crackers themselves. In this case, there should be a 95% chance (if not higher) that these disks match the original scene disk. See where I'm going with this? I'm not interested in creating [a] dumps if the only difference is that some idiot saved his game on one of the game disks (which was the case with Settlers, disk 2 that I dumped the other day). Nothing else spectacular about it. The other 2 disks matched the ones in TOSEC, and disk 2 would have too if someone hadn't tried to save his game on it (not me!). Sooo, since it's a lengthy procedure dumping disks, I'm just not dumping more [a]'s because of what I just described. It's sounds like I'm angry now, but I'm not, just giving my opinion Or do you think that cracked games should never be given a [!] flag? I for one would like to have it, even if that disk spread by the group was faulty in some way. It was still the original scene version.

09 February 2005, 10:46	#6
[idoru] Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: UK Posts: 246	Well, for sure if dumps match on un-modified images made from originls they could be considered [!], but with adf it's not that easy re. the disk protection etc. - particularly games anyway (hence, CAPS). With cracked etc, it would be nice to know which matched the original scene releases so they could be marked as such but they're not really "verified dumps from original media", which the [!] is used for. Also, re. the alt's...I know it's not a perfect system & I know having 10 alts for a game isn't nice...but sometimes [a9] is the only 100% fully working version, and if it wasn't kept then there possibly might be no 100% working version at all. If only we had to time to fully playtest & examine everything the system would be better.

09 February 2005, 15:56	#7
[idoru] Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: UK Posts: 246	We do re-jig the flags if an alt is proved to be better than the non alt etc.

09 February 2005, 16:39	#8
Medvind Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Age: 45 Posts: 145	Kodoichi: Depends on what kind of "original" you mean. Scene "original" or retail original? Not to worry guys, I'm dumping every disk I have regardless. But wouldn't it be a good idea to give verified scene "originals" some kind of flag too? Or some flag that indicates that the adf/dump is verified to be fully playable. As it is now, you can never be sure of that the one without any [a] flag is actually verified to be 100% playable.

02 March 2006, 14:20	#11
Npl Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Vienna / Austria Age: 44 Posts: 257	Wish I wouldve dumped mine while they were still useable (ie before my brother took over my room and spilled coke, beer and good-knows-what-else around). I still remember having a Demo I cant find anywhere, and I certainly had some versions not in TOSEC, for example a working german Version of Future Wars.

02 May 2006, 11:49	#12
Aral TOSEC-PIX Curator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 104	I've just started dumping all of my disks to adf. I have nearly 5000 disks sitting here still waiting to be done. (I was the librarian at our local c64 / amiga user group btw ) So far i have found a fair few compilation game disks done by Australian groups that are not in TOSEC plus there is bound to be lots of other games that were "imported" into Australia with a little group screen at the start. I also have roughly 600 original games here also (not sure how to rip to adf if protected atm) and hundreds of Mag coverdisks. After reading this forum for the last couple of years and registering a few times (and then losing interest in Amiga so my account disappeared..LOL), i thought it time to get the finger out and start working on these before it was too late. I am lucky in a way because all the disks in in airtight containers in shelves under my house, so they were not in the elements at all. I have transferred a hundred or so to date with no errors. Once completed i will scan the images with the current TOSEC dat. Any that aren't renamed with the dat are disks that are needed by TOSEC i gather. Do they get uploaded to the Zone? Also with the copy protected originals and coverdisks, are they needed for TOSEC as well as SPS?? Whats the best way to deal with them. Thanks for reading

02 May 2006, 12:28	#13
BippyM Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Derby, UK Age: 48 Posts: 9,355	hmmm... It'll be a lot of work ripping the disks to adf just to find 99% are already in tosec! But saying that 1% might be something ultra rare I have a lot of Australian stuff on CD that I am going to rename.. and I already added a lot of stuff from down under to the dats a couple yrs ago.. I'm currently working on an 8 CD set from US so err... might be a while! Originals you'd need to contact the SPS guys

02 May 2006, 13:31	#15
BippyM Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Derby, UK Age: 48 Posts: 9,355	then go for it

02 May 2006, 20:28	#16
demoniac Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: - Posts: 1,698	I dumped my 700 disks collection and I thought it was worth it as there were several things that's not in TOSEC. Plus, I have a sanity check when it comes to all the different alternate dumps of a same release. I know that most of mine will work 100% rather than what's floating in cyberspace.

03 May 2006, 02:56	#17
Aral TOSEC-PIX Curator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 104	So far i have dumped roughly 400 disks and have after scanning with TIM and CLRMAME pro have found 60 odd alternate versions. One strange game i came across was Speed by Stefan Meyer-Kahlen and Volken Randt. After searching everywhere for a game description i found it on AMI SEctor One. I ended up finding a couple of versions of this in the TOSEC PD area. The version i have here is a retail version of the game. On the label it says "Speed @1988 Softgang - Amiga Version" I have the box and manual here somewhere so will have to scan when i find and add to zone with image. Is this game really a PD game or a commercial one?

03 May 2006, 14:42	#18
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Maybe commercial. Could you get in contact with SPS and dump the originals that are not listed in the games' section using the SPS tool? www.softpres.org

04 May 2006, 03:05	#19
andreas Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Germany Age: 50 Posts: 5,857	@Aral Many thanks, HOL entry has been completed.

04 May 2006, 08:16	#20
Aral TOSEC-PIX Curator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 104	Andreas, i will scan the disk shortly for you. The box etc is missing atm so when i find i will scan for you IFW - i will contact them shortly. Since starting ripping i have been in contact with a few of the old user group friends and have been given another 2000 disks and 5000 5 1/2" disks and disk drive. I havent opened any of the disks yet so not sure how many originals are there.

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