Guaging interest in a Zorro II Ethernet Card

aperez · 18 January 2010, 21:58

Hi folks,

I'd like to inquire within the community as to whether or not there is sufficient interest for a run of ZII-based ethernet cards. Target price is USD $75 (might include shipping to UK/EU) and would like to bring your attention to a thread on Amiga.org where this has been discussed in recent weeks. The thread can be found at http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=538783

I have not yet settled on whether I will use the CS8900A which the RR-Net is based upon, or something more modern, with a longer manufacturing time-horizon.

The goal of this particular card is to cost significantly less money than current Amiga NIC's, not necessarily to be screaming fast, and to be modular such that the core component can be re-utilized in a clockport version of the product.

Ideally, I'd like to make between 50-100 boards on the first run, due to economies of scale. Please let me know who is interested.

smoorke · 18 January 2010, 23:40

i'd be interested in the clockport version.
I don't have a big box amiga so i'm sorry but i can't help you there

alexh · 19 January 2010, 00:12

Isn't the supply of second hand boards too high to make this project viable?

A quick search and I see one or two X-Surf, Ariadne, A2065 and Hydra boards being sold (worldwide) every week for around $75-$100.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=160392866163

I am guessing that to use a more modern ethernet chip you'd need a more expensive bridge (cpld/fpga) as all will be PCI as opposed to ISA?

I am guessing that whatever you do you'll need to write your own drivers?

T_hairy_bootson · 19 January 2010, 00:12

Knowing nothing about hardware as such, how much harder would it be to make a zorro PCMCIA insterface? Then you could use network cards, wireless cards, amiga SCSI cards etc..

alexh · 19 January 2010, 01:16

They couldn't map to the A1200/A600 PCMCIA address space and so all drivers would need to be re-written or at least patched.

Reynolds · 19 January 2010, 15:03

I'm interested, really. If it is only a PCMCIA adapter, it's not a problem for me.
Wanna see if can be made a wLAN card somehow...

ajacocks · 20 January 2010, 00:22

I'm interested, for my A3000.

Brosol · 20 January 2010, 02:35

Me too, for my A3000 as well.

alexh · 20 January 2010, 10:27

How price sensitive are you two? Is the 50% premium of the $125 X-Surf 3CC really putting you off?

I only ask because if aperez really does this he needs to know then he can put a hard cap on his BOM.

ajacocks · 21 January 2010, 00:57

I'm not price sensitive...just interested in continuing Amiga hardware development. I'd also like to see, someday, a better performing card than the X-surf.

alexh · 21 January 2010, 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajacocks

I'd also like to see a better performing card than the X-surf.

??

10Mbits = 1200Kbyte/sec theoretical. In practice the actual speed is going to be lower than this. I'm pretty sure that using MiamiDX and the z2-dp8390.mni driver with an 060 CPU card I got close to that limit. (But it was a long time agao, I may be wrong).

I think you'd have to use a 100Mbit ethernet chipset to go faster but then Zorro II (~28Mbit) & the CPU become the bottleneck. But aperez is not suggesting using a 100Mbit chipset.

ajacocks · 22 January 2010, 00:09

Yep, I know. I'm just saying that I'd like to see one, someday. And a Zorro-III card is possible.

alexh · 22 January 2010, 00:27

A Zorro III Deneb USB host + 100Mbit USB->Ethernet bridge is reportedly faster than current dedicated Z2 ethernet solutions.

ajacocks · 23 January 2010, 00:30

I actually have a Deneb. However, I've had continual stability issues with that card, and have since put it aside.

So, I'm still looking for a good networking solution.

alexh · 23 January 2010, 02:33

Wow. You got an unusual setup? My Deneb has been working flawlessly on AmigaOS3.9 BB2 for over a year as both internal SATA hard drive controller and Ethernet.

Are you on the latest Deneb Firmware v9 and Poseidon v4.3?

Some issues with Deneb's have been traced to a bug in accelerator's firmware. Cyberstorm MK2, MK3 and PPC are some of those reported to be affected.

There is a fix which can disable CPU caches until after the Zorro III space has been marked as non-cacheable.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost...51&postcount=2

But these were not stability issues.

Photon · 23 January 2010, 03:33

What Amiga models are we talking? Might there be trouble for those unable or unwilling to go beyond OS3.1 (in the drivers/software department)? And even if they do, it would be interesting which models it's planned to be compatible with.

If I can do text-based browsing, ftp and irc on an A500 with a Zorro II interface (and any drivers, stack, software needed) I'll stop my negative second-guessing and order two, please!

I'll get any amount of fastram needed to make it work.

alexh · 23 January 2010, 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photon

text-based browsing, ftp and irc on an A500

Have you tried a serial link to a PC? What is called a SLIP connection.

It should certainly fill your needs until you're ready to buy an ethernet card (aperez' proposed new one or one of the existing ZII ethernet cards)

jPV · 23 January 2010, 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

10Mbits = 1200Kbyte/sec theoretical. In practice the actual speed is going to be lower than this. I'm pretty sure that using MiamiDX and the z2-dp8390.mni driver with an 060 CPU card I got close to that limit. (But it was a long time agao, I may be wrong).

Hmm... I would be pretty surprised if it would go near max with Miami, even with mni driver, because Miami is much slower stack than AmiTCP. And I never got faster than 600kB/s with Zorro2 cards (Hydra and Commodore's ones) even with AmiTCP. Normally it stayed around 500kB/s with 060 at 66MHz.

Quote:

I think you'd have to use a 100Mbit ethernet chipset to go faster but then Zorro II (~28Mbit) & the CPU become the bottleneck. But aperez is not suggesting using a 100Mbit chipset.

It seems that CPU speed is the most limiting factor here. Transfer speeds are pretty linear to CPU speed in my experience. With 100Mbps card on PCI you can't get that much faster than with 10Mbps cards when using 060 for example. Here is some speed tests I've made with Miami, MiamiDX, AmiTCP/IP Genesis and MorphOS's NetStack on couple of Amigas. Realtek in A1200/060 is 10/100Mbps card in Mediator PCI-busboard.

ajacocks · 25 January 2010, 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Wow. You got an unusual setup? My Deneb has been working flawlessly on AmigaOS3.9 BB2 for over a year as both internal SATA hard drive controller and Ethernet.

Are you on the latest Deneb Firmware v9 and Poseidon v4.3?

Some issues with Deneb's have been traced to a bug in accelerator's firmware. Cyberstorm MK2, MK3 and PPC are some of those reported to be affected.

There is a fix which can disable CPU caches until after the Zorro III space has been marked as non-cacheable.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost...51&postcount=2

But these were not stability issues.

Well, I have a stock A3000, with 4mb of fast, and 2mb of chip, and running the most recent firmware, as of March 2009, the machine was unstable, just mounting USB storage (thumbdrives), running OS 3.1. I played with TCP/IP, using AmiTCP, and with Miami, and that, too was unstable, and would eventually cause the machine to hang.

The machine is perfectly stable, otherwise.

Thanks!

aperez · 27 January 2010, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

A Zorro III Deneb USB host + 100Mbit USB->Ethernet bridge is reportedly faster than current dedicated Z2 ethernet solutions.

Yes, and therefore it's not something I want to compete with. I think there *is* room for a new ethernet device, one which is designed from the beginning to support all Amiga models (eventually). As you've stated, the BOM costs are of extreme importance for this project.

18 January 2010, 21:58	#1
aperez Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 94	Guaging interest in a Zorro II Ethernet Card Hi folks, I'd like to inquire within the community as to whether or not there is sufficient interest for a run of ZII-based ethernet cards. Target price is USD $75 (might include shipping to UK/EU) and would like to bring your attention to a thread on Amiga.org where this has been discussed in recent weeks. The thread can be found at http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=538783 I have not yet settled on whether I will use the CS8900A which the RR-Net is based upon, or something more modern, with a longer manufacturing time-horizon. The goal of this particular card is to cost significantly less money than current Amiga NIC's, not necessarily to be screaming fast, and to be modular such that the core component can be re-utilized in a clockport version of the product. Ideally, I'd like to make between 50-100 boards on the first run, due to economies of scale. Please let me know who is interested.

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18 January 2010, 23:40	#2
smoorke Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ghent/Belgium Age: 43 Posts: 247	i'd be interested in the clockport version. I don't have a big box amiga so i'm sorry but i can't help you there

19 January 2010, 00:12	#3
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,355	Isn't the supply of second hand boards too high to make this project viable? A quick search and I see one or two X-Surf, Ariadne, A2065 and Hydra boards being sold (worldwide) every week for around $75-$100. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=160392866163 I am guessing that to use a more modern ethernet chip you'd need a more expensive bridge (cpld/fpga) as all will be PCI as opposed to ISA? I am guessing that whatever you do you'll need to write your own drivers?

19 January 2010, 00:12	#4
T_hairy_bootson Workbitch 1.3 Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Age: 46 Posts: 2,084	Knowing nothing about hardware as such, how much harder would it be to make a zorro PCMCIA insterface? Then you could use network cards, wireless cards, amiga SCSI cards etc..

19 January 2010, 01:16	#5
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,355	They couldn't map to the A1200/A600 PCMCIA address space and so all drivers would need to be re-written or at least patched.

19 January 2010, 15:03	#6
Reynolds Alien Breeder Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Szigetszentmiklos / Hungary Age: 46 Posts: 1,096	I'm interested, really. If it is only a PCMCIA adapter, it's not a problem for me. Wanna see if can be made a wLAN card somehow...

20 January 2010, 00:22	#7
ajacocks Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA Posts: 59	I'm interested, for my A3000.

20 January 2010, 02:35	#8
Brosol Brosol Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Posts: 85	Me too, for my A3000 as well.

20 January 2010, 10:27	#9
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,355	How price sensitive are you two? Is the 50% premium of the $125 X-Surf 3CC really putting you off? I only ask because if aperez really does this he needs to know then he can put a hard cap on his BOM.

21 January 2010, 00:57	#10
ajacocks Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA Posts: 59	I'm not price sensitive...just interested in continuing Amiga hardware development. I'd also like to see, someday, a better performing card than the X-surf.

22 January 2010, 00:09	#12
ajacocks Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA Posts: 59	Yep, I know. I'm just saying that I'd like to see one, someday. And a Zorro-III card is possible.

22 January 2010, 00:27	#13
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,355	A Zorro III Deneb USB host + 100Mbit USB->Ethernet bridge is reportedly faster than current dedicated Z2 ethernet solutions.

23 January 2010, 00:30	#14
ajacocks Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA Posts: 59	I actually have a Deneb. However, I've had continual stability issues with that card, and have since put it aside. So, I'm still looking for a good networking solution.

23 January 2010, 02:33	#15
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,355	Wow. You got an unusual setup? My Deneb has been working flawlessly on AmigaOS3.9 BB2 for over a year as both internal SATA hard drive controller and Ethernet. Are you on the latest Deneb Firmware v9 and Poseidon v4.3? Some issues with Deneb's have been traced to a bug in accelerator's firmware. Cyberstorm MK2, MK3 and PPC are some of those reported to be affected. There is a fix which can disable CPU caches until after the Zorro III space has been marked as non-cacheable. http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost...51&postcount=2 But these were not stability issues.

23 January 2010, 03:33	#16
Photon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Eksjö / Sweden Posts: 5,604	What Amiga models are we talking? Might there be trouble for those unable or unwilling to go beyond OS3.1 (in the drivers/software department)? And even if they do, it would be interesting which models it's planned to be compatible with. If I can do text-based browsing, ftp and irc on an A500 with a Zorro II interface (and any drivers, stack, software needed) I'll stop my negative second-guessing and order two, please! I'll get any amount of fastram needed to make it work.

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