How does X2:Megablast parallax with all that colors?

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by Master484

Well, the gaming world can laugh freely at our frame rates, we simply shouldn't care.

Many great Amiga shooters already use the "Player at 50 fps + everything else at 25 fps" trick, including games like Battle Squadron and Agony. And even if they used 17 fps instead of 25 fps, I don't think it would make much difference to overall game quality.

The difference between every second frame (25 fps) and every third frame (17 fps) is interesting. I didn't realize that Xenon 2 was running at 17 fps before I checked it with the emulator; I thought it was 25 fps, just like Frenetic and Banshee.

I have now realized that it's much harder to notice the difference between 25 fps and 17 fps, than it is to notice the difference between 50 fps and 25 fps. Because when we halve the 50 fps, the frame amount per second drops by 25. But when we then go one step below this, dividing 50 with 3 to get 17 fps, this next drop from 25 fps to 17 fps is just 8 frames.

So maybe we shouldn't be so shy about going 17 fps, if the game really needs it, and especially if it's already running at 25 fps. It'll look OK as long as the scroll and the player move at 50 fps. Even Blood Money looks and plays OK with it's 17 fps BOBs and bullets, because the player's ship moves at 50 fps.

Although surely I bet that the Cave fanboys are laughing at Blood Money and Xenon, but they don't understand the Amiga. The Blitter has unlimited drawing power, it just needs enough frames to draw all that stuff. And if DoDonPachi was converted to Amiga, and it needed 17 fps, then that's the way to go, we just put a "17 FPS" warning sticker to the game box.

Back then, I always wondered why so many Amiga games (like Blood Money and X2) felt so "off" and jerky to me and why some others like Turrican don't.

It's the frame rate (many Amiga games also had very bad art, but that's another topic).

I think it's a good development, that these days most coders aim for 50 frames and if necessary compromise on other areas for that.

[Master484]

Back then, I always wondered why so many Amiga games (like Blood Money and X2) felt so "off" and jerky to me and why some others like Turrican don't.

It's the frame rate (many Amiga games also had very bad art, but that's another topic).

I think it's a good development, that these days most coders aim for 50 frames and if necessary compromise on other areas for that.

I too wondered this when I was a kid, doing comparisions between Bionic Commando and Turrican 2, and wondering what's the deal here.

Turrican 2 does a great job of keeping up the 50 fps, even during the flying shmup stages. Although during the flying stages there are some compromises such as the player's blaster weapon at maximum power being able to shoot only 3 bullets instead of 5. And short slowdowns sometimes happen, but it's rare.

But despite defending the 17 fps idea in my posts here, I agree that 50 fps should be at least the starting aim for any action game, as it looks much better than 25 fps or less. Even the Blitz Basic manual encourages coders to use all means necessary to keep their games at 50 fps, because it makes them look "professional".

Although still it seems that in practice many professional games in the Amiga library ended up using 25 fps, or some 50/25 fps combination frame rate.

I think that back then 25 fps was still considered smooth, but this changed in around 1990 when the Megadrive and later the SNES arrived, and most of their games ran at 50 fps.

In that case, the ZX80 also has unlimited drawing power.

Yes, and this is why the Spectrum too could easily handle bullet hell shooters. In fact one might argue that it's well suited for them; often there are so many bullets on screen that they overlap, and so only one graphic character would be needed to represent many bullets.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by Master484

I too wondered this when I was a kid, doing comparisions between Bionic Commando and Turrican 2, and wondering what's the deal here.

Turrican 2 does a great job of keeping up the 50 fps, even during the flying shmup stages. Although during the flying stages there are some compromises such as the player's blaster weapon at maximum power being able to shoot only 3 bullets instead of 5. And short slowdowns sometimes happen, but it's rare.

But despite defending the 17 fps idea in my posts here, I agree that 50 fps should be at least the starting aim for any action game, as it looks much better than 25 fps or less. Even the Blitz Basic manual encourages coders to use all means necessary to keep their games at 50 fps, because it makes them look "professional".

Although still it seems that in practice many professional games in the Amiga library ended up using 25 fps, or some 50/25 fps combination frame rate.

I think that back then 25 fps was still considered smooth, but this changed in around 1990 when the Megadrive and later the SNES arrived, and most of their games ran at 50 fps.

Yes, and this is why the Spectrum too could easily handle bullet hell shooters. In fact one might argue that it's well suited for them; often there are so many bullets on screen that they overlap, and so only one graphic character would be needed to represent many bullets.

The problem was and will always be the Atari ST. It did unimaginable damage to the reputation of the Amiga.

As with Xenon 2, the ST was the limitations they designed their games around as its much harder to do Amiga lead first and then try and replicate on the ST.

Get the game running half decently on the ST, and then if time, utilise the Amiga hardware to some degree, but Xenon 2 doesnt even utilise the Amiga hardware properly.

Its why other than sound, the ST and Amiga versions are identical, its kinda sad really

[idrougge]

That makes Turrican even more impressive – Amiga lead but with a very decent ST conversion.

[DanScott]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

The problem was and will always be the Tiertex. They did unimaginable damage to the reputation of the Amiga.

Fixed this for you

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by DanScott

Fixed this for you

If Wikipedia is right, Tiertex did only two game conversions for the Amiga, 720° and Rolling Thunder. Which are both bad, but isn't it a bit hyperbolic to say they are almost solely responsible for all the shitty ST conversions the Amiga got back in the day?

[nobody]

they did a lot more, including some huge titles like Strider, Mercs, UN Squadron, Street fighter, Rolling Thunder, Indiana Jones etc. If you play these games you would pray to have a Sega Master System instead. NES Rolling thunder is much better than the Amiga version.

[idrougge]

Tiertex did the Master System versions of Strider as well, and they're equally horrible.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by Steril707

If Wikipedia is right, Tiertex did only two game conversions for the Amiga, 720° and Rolling Thunder. Which are both bad, but isn't it a bit hyperbolic to say they are almost solely responsible for all the shitty ST conversions the Amiga got back in the day?

Tiertex did more than two, and the ST was the lead in all their conversions for 16bit

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

Tiertex did more than two, and the ST was the lead in all their conversions for 16bit

that's clear. Awful way of proceeding.....

[Tigerskunk]

Looking at the youtube arcade version long play of rolling thunder, knowing the OCS hardware a little bit now, I'd say that game could have looked very much like the original on the Amigas hardware back then.

[sandruzzo]

Originally Posted by Steril707

Looking at the youtube arcade version long play of rolling thunder, knowing the OCS hardware a little but now, I'd say that game could have looked very much like the original on the Amigas hardware back then.

we can do it

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

we can do it

Haha. Hey, you are still doing Rygar, Sandruzzo!

I have to say, I'd do it if I would be having any nostalgic ties to Rolling Thunder (like I have with playing Yie Ar Kung Fu in the arcade back in 1985), but since I have only ever seen the horrible Amiga version, I think that time on recreating the game would feel wasted wasted to me..

[sandruzzo]

Originally Posted by Steril707

Haha. Hey, you are still doing Rygar, Sandruzzo!

I have to say, I'd do it if I would be having any nostalgic ties to Rolling Thunder (like I have with playing Yie Ar Kung Fu in the arcade back in 1985), but since I have only ever seen the horrible Amiga version, I think that time on recreating the game would feel wasted wasted to me..

Agreed! So far rygar is stopped, no more gfx

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by DanScott

Fixed this for you

This should convey my feelings on the matter

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=270010&postcount=2

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=270027&postcount=5

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

This should convey my feelings on the matter

"games that should have used the copper for graduated backdrops, used graduated bitmaps instead!"

Haha.
Is that true?

[nobody]

Better make a game like Ninja-Five-O from Gameboy Advance. Is a mix of Bionic Commando with Rolling Thunder/Shinobi.

[Tigerskunk]

Actually the only arcade conversion that I would like to recreate to have a better Amiga version is Pacmania. I know many people hold the Amiga version in high regards, but personally, I was so disappointed when I played it the first time back then.
But it's getting slightly off topic.

[s2325]

I think Amiga Pacmania is really good if not better than original. I was always disappointed with Pacman clones because of simplicity and full playfield revealed.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by s2325

I think Amiga Pacmania is really good if not better than original.

It looks so bland and devoid of colour compared to the arcade.