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Old 22 March 2020, 03:40   #21
roondar
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Originally Posted by AmigaHope View Post
Well, yeah, the power of the hardware doesn't mean a port isn't DOABLE, but, well...
Yeah, except that is not at all what I meant.
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Old 24 March 2020, 16:12   #22
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I'm sure tiertex would have put something out which claimed to be virtua fighter if they had the chance.
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Old 24 March 2020, 22:16   #23
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closest we have is 4D sports boxing.
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Old 24 March 2020, 23:32   #24
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The Sega 32X also has a port of Virtua Fighter, this would be a closer comparison to an '030 system without 3D hardware.

I have both the 32X and an A2000 with 50MHz '030 and I have run code on both. I'd say the 50MHz '030 is in the same ball park as ONE 23MHz SH-2 (and you should be aware that the 32X has slow ROM access timing and only a 16-bit memory bus). Although the comparison falls apart if your code is doing a ton of multiplication or division. Multiply is around 28 cycles on an '030, but only 3 cycles on SH-2. Peak video memory write bandwidth on the 32X is around 9MB/sec, which is only slightly better than AGA and not as good as a Zorro 3 card.

The 32X Virtua Fighter uses the MD video to display the background scenary which reduces the amount of stuff that has to be rendered on the 32X side. Maybe something like that could be done using AGA dual playfield mode but it would have limited colors. Otherwise a Zorro 3 chunky screen might fast enough for full software rendering. I am reminded of the old PC game Roller Coaster Rumbler which had a few untextured polygons flying around at decent speed on a 16MHz 286...
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Old 24 March 2020, 23:41   #25
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Originally Posted by AmigaHope View Post
Actually every single Playstation game and almost all Saturn games used fixed-point 32-bit math. The Playstation had zero floating point capability in any of its hardware, and while the Saturn DSP could do floating point the rasterizer was still integer.
Heck, the same for Quake 2 and any game built on it's engine.
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Old 25 March 2020, 01:21   #26
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Now, here is a rose tinted glasses view:

I've looked several times at this thread, and several times at virtua fighter (both arcade and sega version), and I see absolutely nothing in it, that plain A1200 can't do.

Let me elaborate:
Few days a go I googled about it, and someone mentioned (in the forums) that arcade version had few (2-3) thousands polygons, and sega version had approximately 550 polygons per character. I looked again at the game, and my though was that 550 polygons are too much for this type of details.
Today, I found masterpieces with 200 polygons models.

So, this crap looking 3D game can't work on 030? and No Second Prize can work on plain A500 (same as Z-wolf, and Frontier).

Ofcourse, rigging (and linking) takes it's toes... so.. is the rigging most prominent problem for the Amiga? Rather then polygon count?
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Old 25 March 2020, 15:02   #27
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Originally Posted by d4rk3lf View Post
Now, here is a rose tinted glasses view:

I've looked several times at this thread, and several times at virtua fighter (both arcade and sega version), and I see absolutely nothing in it, that plain A1200 can't do.

Let me elaborate:
Few days a go I googled about it, and someone mentioned (in the forums) that arcade version had few (2-3) thousands polygons, and sega version had approximately 550 polygons per character. I looked again at the game, and my though was that 550 polygons are too much for this type of details.
Today, I found masterpieces with 200 polygons models.

So, this crap looking 3D game can't work on 030? and No Second Prize can work on plain A500 (same as Z-wolf, and Frontier).

Ofcourse, rigging (and linking) takes it's toes... so.. is the rigging most prominent problem for the Amiga? Rather then polygon count?
The Model 1 arcade kicks the shit out of an A1200 that is a fact that rose tinded glasses can't do much about.
However, it's usually possible to cheat your way to a *decent enough* result.

Rigging a character with a few nodes shouldn't be much of a problem, I think a much bigger challenge would be vertex/meshdeformed characters. In The first Quake games they didn't have mesh deformation so we can ignore that bit. I think original Quake characters are in the 100 polys ballpark, but with textures you can get away with that. Flat shaded polys without textures require a bit more if you want some more detail.. Like details in a face.. In Quake it can be a box with a texture of a face, but a flat shade box is not much to look at. Virtua Fighter characters have a lot of details for this reason. I estimate you'd need about 200 polys for a decent enough character. so 2x 200 polys + say 50 polys for some ground, then you have bitmap backgrounds should be enough on Amiga.
I'm not a coder so someone else can tell you the limits of an AGA Amiga.. (Computing the geometry fast enough is one thing, drawing it /fill rate is another).. so there are several limitations..
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Old 25 March 2020, 16:23   #28
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I have both the 32X and an A2000 with 50MHz '030 and I have run code on both. I'd say the 50MHz '030 is in the same ball park as ONE 23MHz SH-2 (and you should be aware that the 32X has slow ROM access timing and only a 16-bit memory bus). Although the comparison falls apart if your code is doing a ton of multiplication or division. Multiply is around 28 cycles on an '030, but only 3 cycles on SH-2.
Vertex calculation *is* tons of multiplication, unless you're using just lookup tables. You can store all "frames of animation" of a 3D fighter in tables and perform one set of vertex calculations for the model and then calculate all the other vertices using offsets, but that would take a ton of memory for fluid motion as opposed to calculating movement between a smaller number of keyframes. In fact, this is how old-school 3D polygon games worked on the Amiga etc, which is why 3D entities move so choppily even on fast CPUs.

Virtua Fighter was part of a new breed of 3D games where motion was fluid by recalculating the vertices of moving objects independently. You need fast multiplication to do that.
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Old 25 March 2020, 17:18   #29
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Well, the 68030 is quite fast at doing lookups in fast memory. There are also table based ways to accelerate general multiplication. And most Amiga's with 68030 have much more memory than a 32x does. These factors might alleviate the need for heavy use of the multiplication instructions.

To be clear, this does not mean that therefore I think it's doable. Just that I don't think the multiplying speed will be the decisive factor.
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Old 26 March 2020, 00:23   #30
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Vertex calculation *is* tons of multiplication, unless you're using just lookup tables. You can store all "frames of animation" of a 3D fighter in tables and perform one set of vertex calculations for the model and then calculate all the other vertices using offsets, but that would take a ton of memory for fluid motion as opposed to calculating movement between a smaller number of keyframes. In fact, this is how old-school 3D polygon games worked on the Amiga etc, which is why 3D entities move so choppily even on fast CPUs.

Virtua Fighter was part of a new breed of 3D games where motion was fluid by recalculating the vertices of moving objects independently. You need fast multiplication to do that.
Right, but the time for transformations is directly related to the number of verteces. When using simplistic models with low polygon count then the number of multiplies is minimized and it could end up being less than the time for rasterization in the end.
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