Was anyone else disappointed with the A1200?

[daxb]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

32 16-bit 44.1kHz hardware channels would be pretty useless if none of your games used them, and even more useless if it couldn't even emulate the original Paula sound properly.

Of course the old already existing games wouldn't use them but the new games could use them. Similar to having more RAM available or a HD instead of floppies. An Paula upgrade would work with the old 4 channels Paula. Maybe native without the need of emulation.

Not 'upgrading' the sound in the A1200 might have disappointed some people, but it had one huge upside - compatibility.

But you change compatibility with leaving musician they went to systems that support multi channel and 16 bit 44,1kHz. I really missed that doing music on my A1200. On the other hand a hardware synthesizer + drum machine + effect device would make the A1200 more better.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by daxb

But you change compatibility with leaving musician they went to systems that support multi channel and 16 bit 44,1kHz. I really missed that doing music on my A1200. On the other hand a hardware synthesizer + drum machine + effect device would make the A1200 more better.

The Atari ST was very popular among musicians even though it only had a crappy AY sound chip. Why? Because it had MIDI ports. Real musicians had a synthesizer keyboard that they wanted to hook up to the computer, and the ST had that capability out of the box.

Ironically the Amiga's superior sound made it less popular with musicians, because the MIDI cable was an extra you had to purchase and you could (just) get away with using only internal sound in a music program. If only Commodore had put MIDI sockets in the Amiga, or bundled machines with a MIDI cable, things might have been different. Instead they bundled a music program with the A500 that merely made people wish for more internal sound channels!

But in the end that was a good thing, because it encouraged Amiga musicians to make the most out of Paula's 4 channels. It's why we now have such a huge selection of awesome MOD files that play on any Amiga, not just those with a particular sound card or MIDI device.

Yes, the A1200 could have had a hardware synthesizer + drum machine + effect device, plus a 16 bit stereo CODEC etc. etc. all 100% with Paula or even as a separate device with its own memory, but it would have significantly raised the price and delayed the machine's release - for a market that was already lost.

To gauge how much Amigans were prepared to pay for advanced sound you only have to look at what they did (or didn't) put up money for. Professional users were already using high-end sound cards for video production etc., but unlike the PC market few A1200 owners were willing to shell out on a hard drive or extra memory to run games, and even fewer considered buying any of the add-on sound products that were available. The tiny Amiga market compared to PCs meant that game developers couldn't afford to limit their sales to a small fraction of it. And again the fact that the Amiga's sound was already 'good enough' ironically made owners less interested in upgrading.

The A1200 was designed to be a compatible replacement for the A500, not for high-end professional use. But if you wanted more it was easy enough. I bought a cheap MIDI synthesizer, and built my own MIDI cable from parts costing ~$15. At one time I also had an Aura plugged into the PCMCIA port, but it was just a novelty as I had no real use for 16 bit recording and playback.

I think the main reason many Amiga owners pined for more advanced sound was PC envy. All those big numbers made them feel inadequate, even though a suitably equipped Amiga was quite capable of meeting their actual needs. But that is what drove the PC market too - the difference being that PC owners were willing to pay for it.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by no9

music or sfx:
[ Show youtube player ]

One of the things I love about my Nissan Leaf is that you can listen to music at a reasonable volume without being distracted by engine noise.

what the heck, perfect gun silencer?
[ Show youtube player ]

And what would a continuous rat-a-tat have added to the game? The background music was already making it difficult to hear the enemies' shots.

16-bit can be utilised fully only by software dedicated to music/sound where all available system resources can be sacrificed for that single use.

My ears have an upper frequency cutoff of 3kHz and background noise level of about -40dBm, so 16 bit sound is completely wasted on me. 16 bit effects are unnecessary in a game, and if you need it for background music then that's what the CD32 (or A1200 with CDROM drive) was for. Why waste memory and cycles when you can play it direct from CD?

As for the overhead of mixing sound channels during the game, if a stock A1200 has enough grunt to do all the graphics and regular sound then an accelerated machine should have plenty left over for mixing. But of course that would mean upgrading your machine to get the advanced sound effects, which was anathema to Amiga owners.

[Pyromania]

@Bruce Abbott

Nissan Leaf is awesome, I have a couple of them. Been driving various Nissan Leafs since 2013.

[no9]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

One of the things I love about my Nissan Leaf is that you can listen to music at a reasonable volume without being distracted by engine noise.

And what would a continuous rat-a-tat have added to the game? The background music was already making it difficult to hear the enemies' shots.

Thats's funny

But of course that would mean upgrading your machine to get the advanced sound effects, which was anathema to Amiga owners.

That's valid idea. Why bother with giving users motherboard populated with advanced chips at all? You can hand them motherboard with empty slots and let them stuff it with anything they want. That would be a bless.

[no9]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

The Atari ST was very popular among musicians even though it only had a crappy AY sound chip. Why? Because it had MIDI ports. Real musicians had a synthesizer keyboard that they wanted to hook up to the computer, and the ST had that capability out of the box.

Ironically the Amiga's superior sound made it less popular with musicians, because the MIDI cable was an extra you had to purchase

Well... nope. Popularity of Atari ST amongst musicians was not solely because it's MIDI port. It was because Jack Tramiel knew how convince Steinberg to support his platform with their becoming industry standard software. The software they started to develop and gathered experience with on C64.

Atari ST 1986:
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/so...-tracking/1826

The computers have had the potential for some time, but only now are the Atari ST machines receiving the software support they need to get musicians interested. One of the first ST music packages to appear is Pro24, a multitrack MIDI recording system from Steinberg Research.

Amiga 1991:
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/an-old-pro/7371

The majority of you, being ST/PC/Mac oriented musicians, might be forgiven for wondering why the arrival of Steinberg's Pro24 on the Amiga is such a big thing. The reason is simple — good Amiga music software has, to say the least, been very thin on the ground. The Amiga has been very slow taking off as a music computer because, in a nutshell, so much of its music software has been, well... crap.

Builtin MIDI port in Atari was much more crucial in quick development of software for programmers than lack of it it was a burden for musicians in the studio. Atari ST high resolution screen mode was also an advantage here.

Jack knew how to satisfy and encourage software developers and that's why his machine got best stuff right on time.


More on that story https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.co...al-instruments

[matt3k]

To wrap up my prior thoughts.

It really depended on what you used and when you used it...

I used a 500 first then a 3000D, and it was a huge trade up for me. Since my 3000D was my second amiga that I used for years. I put in a Retina Z3 first and then a Warp Engine 3040 some time after that. This was my baseline for my experience. I used the 3000 for productivity and it did that very well. It ran 24/7 for many months never needing a reboot. It answered the phone with the phonepak and you could be working and it could pickup and answer the phone without missing a beat.

Some years later I picked up a 4000D for a song then later picked up a 1200 for a short while there after for free. Within months of using the 4000 the caps went and killed the audio and the 040 board went. I looked at my 3000 still running without a hitch 24/7. I had to play with crappy IDE drives that were slow and loud, where the scsi was more elegant and faster on my other machine. By the time I got to playing with the 1200 I was already tainted against it given what I experience on the 4000.

Given that journey it is easy to see why the 1200 was a real disappointment for me really (the 4000 as well). It really felt like a major step backwards.

Moving from a 500 to a 3000 was a major step up imho, all the other steps felt like such stumble or fall really.

If I started with a 1200 and got good at it and not used another amiga, my opinion would be much different.

[redblade]

Originally Posted by matt3k

Moving from a 500 to a 3000 was a major step up imho, all the other steps felt like such stumble or fall really.

If I started with a 1200 and got good at it and not used another amiga, my opinion would be much different.

How easy was it to get Amigas and software in the US? I'm guessing the 3000 would have been a big seller. Was there much of a piracy scene over there like Europe?

[Samurai_Crow]

There was piracy in the US but few gamers stayed past the A500. The A4000 was a Video Toaster 4000 shell here. Some people thought the Amiga and NewTek Video Toaster card were synonymous.

[turrican3]

they should have done a 3d card for the 1200 and making the cd32 with the 3d card inside.Something enough powerfull to make doom... Like sega with the 32x or snes with super fx.
They could have published doom or else with the 3d card for all amiga models.

I know it's easy to say but this move could have saved the amiga.
Was it possible ??

[matt3k]

Originally Posted by redblade

How easy was it to get Amigas and software in the US? I'm guessing the 3000 would have been a big seller. Was there much of a piracy scene over there like Europe?

Most of the guys in the club bought 3000's, so it seemed like the standard for us at the time. Our club didn't pirate we demoed software and enjoyed the company. The club also helped businesses use the Amiga, that was a lot of fun back in the day. When the 4000 came out all the group kept their 3000's, for the reasons expressed above, one user who didn't own a 3000, picked up a 4000T later on.

Early on the 64 club, which pirated like no tomorrow filtered into the local Amiga scene for only a very short stint where I lived.

Europe seemed to have a much larger Amiga user base and thus a bigger pirate scene.

We had 2 Amiga stores within 15 miles of each other, so software was easy to purchase.

[matt3k]

Originally Posted by turrican3

they should have done a 3d card for the 1200 and making the cd32 with the 3d card inside.Something enough powerfull to make doom... Like sega with the 32x or snes with super fx.
They could have published doom or else with the 3d card for all amiga models.

I know it's easy to say but this move could have saved the amiga.
Was it possible ??

Commodore was crippled as a company, they had plenty of orders they couldn't fulfill because they were cash broke and their vendors wouldn't give them any more credit. The other major issues plaguing Commodore was poor management that decimated development. By tossing AAA with the DSP co-processor destroyed their future. The Toaster market on a AAA with a DSP would have given them another 10 years of advantage over everyone. If they would have sold the 3000 and let other vendor rebrand them as Sun or HP (can't remember which anymore) wanted to. So many management mistakes put Commodore on borrowed time when the 4000 and 1200 were released, the company was already done and didn't realize it yet.

The game market was very competitive and eventually even if they could mass produce product, the Amiga was left to rot on the dock as far as the chipset and investment. Even a card to run doom on a 1200 or CD32 would have been short lived, they needed to learn how to innovate their product and market successfully. Sadly they could no neither... The 3000 era was the golden age of amiga, 500's sold like hotcakes and the 3000 offered a solid option for business. People like Dave Haney and the crew were all busy developing and looking toward the future. To bad Dave never finished AAA it would have rocked the computer world like the Amiga 1000 did, instead they released AA years later which was DOA and a total waste.

[sandruzzo]

@matt3k

AAA Was very expensive, even Aga with full 32bit 14mhz copper and blitter and little bit of fast ram, one cycle chip ram access for cpu, would have been very good.

[smartroad]

My A1200 was an upgrade from a BBC Model B Microcomputer!! So for me the A1200 was an amazing device, going from 8 colours to 256, from text OS to full WIMP and GUI etc.

Hindesight is a wonderful thing. Sure looking back the A1200 should not have been sold with the crippled '020. Commodore should have kept the ability to upgrade chip RAM or included some FastRAM (even 2MB would have been something).

I don't feel qualified to say to much about what AGA could/should have been, because I didn't care, I had more than 8 colours now!! Again looking back, Paula should have been upgraded more, maybe keep it at 8bit but add more voices and all voices should have had balance controls.

It's a shame Doom came out a year later (the A1200 was '92 and doom was '93 I think), showing that the Amiga really needed a bitmap mode, something that PC's done very well.

But back then I was gutted when Commodore folded and the Amiga basically died. It was the end of an era for me and the beginning of the new, commodity, PC.

[Amigajay]

I don’t believe Doom would have saved the Amiga even if Id licensed a port. We all know the Jaguar had the first console port in Nov 94 and look how that turned out! Sold less consoles than the CD32 in a comparable timeframe (125K over two full years).

Yes Doom was amazing and still my fav fps, but it was not the be all and end all of any machine and certainly the system sellers everyone seems to think it would have made the Amiga giving the Jag as the example.

[Tigerskunk]

The problem was more that after 1990 the PC was suddenly "the VGA 256 colors machine", where all the best looking RPG/Sim/Adventure-games that were the talk of the town came out. Stuff like Wing Commander, Ultima 6, and Gunship2000. And the SNES and Megadrive got better action games.

Doom was just the final nail in the coffin.

If Commodore had released an expensive AGA machine in 1990 (like they did with the 1000 before) and in 1991 had the 1200, they would have retained their lead in that department for a few years.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy

Gravis Ultrasound was released in 1992, same year as AGA was out.
That card had 32 hardware channels mixed at 16-bit 44.1kHz. Even though it had linear resampling interpolation (muddier sound than Paula) and a lowering of output frequency if more than 14 voices were active, it was eating Paula for breakfast (imo).

I'm fully aware of the GUS's capabilities, I had one. I still do, in fact.

Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy

Yeah, the Amiga had some impressive music, but I'm more impressed by PC tracker music.

I disagree. I think to produce something good in 4 channels is far more impressive.

Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy

Most modern sound card DACs can do 96kHz and even 192kHz. This is not something the general man on the street would need, as 44.1kHz can already contain all human-audible tone frequencies (44.1kHz/2=~22kHz tones). This makes more sense for music production, before mastering to lower rates. So yeah, not sure what you are talking about there.

I stand corrected, the HDA specification does include 96khz. It's about as useful as having an 8K TV though (very little content available).

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by Steril707

The problem was more that after 1990 the PC was suddenly "the VGA 256 colors machine", where all the best looking RPG/Sim/Adventure-games that were the talk of the town came out. Stuff like Wing Commander, Ultima 6, and Gunship2000. And the SNES and Megadrive got better action games.

Doom was just the final nail in the coffin.

If Commodore had released an expensive AGA machine in 1990 (like they did with the 1000 before) and in 1991 had the 1200, they would have retained their lead in that department for a few years.

The PC was an expensive gaming machine for lots of people, hence why the Amiga and ST found a slice of the market, you mention VGA in 1990, but don’t forget the Amiga had its best ever year selling a million machines in 1991, it didn’t need AGA any earlier to archive more sales.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

The PC was an expensive gaming machine for lots of people, hence why the Amiga and ST found a slice of the market, you mention VGA in 1990, but don’t forget the Amiga had its best ever year selling a million machines in 1991, it didn’t need AGA any earlier to archive more sales.

I always hear that argument, but I think it's overseeing that the core gamers dictate where the market leads to.

What we saw in 1991 was already kind of an aftermarket effect. The Amiga was getting cheaper, more people who had lusted over one the years but didn't have the money before were able to get one.

Those people who bought an Amiga because it was the superior machine back in 1988 (like me and my friends) saw that those games (and even apps) that we loved were being developed for the AT-PCs foremost, with the Amiga getting a lame and usually ugly port a year later.

They haven't changed their specs for five fucking years in 1990.
When the Amiga1000 was announced, the C64 was just three years old.

In 1991, with no new tech announced by Commodore and seeing those nice looking VGA graphics, all my friends switched either over or started to save money for getting AT-PCs...

We didn't even know that the A1200 was released back then. And we were all huge Amiga fans from 1988 to 1991.
I first heard about the A1200 in 2006, when I came back to the Amiga.

And I think it is a super nice machine which would have been amazing in 1991.

[no9]

Originally Posted by Steril707

What we saw in 1991 was already kind of an aftermarket effect. The Amiga was getting cheaper, more people who had lusted over one the years but didn't have the money before were able to get one.

I would also like to remind the fact from history that in 1990 eastern Europe market just opened for selling computers and this could significantly bloat sales numbers. It was C= German department which registered such success.

A1200 couldn't compete with global trends. It was mere extension of A500 line where you could do all you did before just with a little bit of power added.