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Old 14 March 2002, 08:40   #1
Maverick357
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What do you think about remakes ?

What i call remakes is games from old computers that entirely re-programmed for Dos/Winxx and not emulated.

Personnaly, i find somes remakes fantastic (and somes very crapy), most of the time, it is Spectrum games (yeah ) that are made or from C64 (good too but very bad basic, i had one only <6 months because too many peek/poke to programming !).

I you like this sort of games, follow the link below: http://www.worldofspectrum.org/listremakes.cgi.
Sorry, i have no found remakes of Amiga games (maybee will never exist just because emulation of 16 bits computer is very good, too bad).

In a futur, i hope to start programming remakes too, but for now i have no time (in one year i hope to start it, for now i am sorting alls roms for emulated computers).

Programming in assembly for windows (if you have no game programming experience with windows but only with dos) is really hard this is why is i am collecting infos about windows programming.

And you, do you have already programmed somes remakes ?
If yes, what is the url/website of this remake ?

What are you using of programming language for windows ?

I personnaly prefer assembly, Turbo-pascal free-compiler (a 32 bit pascal compiler for dos), C, and basic (blitz basic for windows seem good but create HUGE exefiles).

Other questions about remakes later
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Old 14 March 2002, 08:45   #2
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Well some remakes are great and some are horrible.

I'm less than an amateur programmer, right now I'm trying to make a remake of Locomotion in Java. The game code is running well, but matching the graphics isn't going too well.
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Old 14 March 2002, 09:46   #3
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I am personally repulsed by the whole remake scene. The only light I see in it at all is on GBA because those games remain true to their roots. We are now living in a recycled society that is bereft of any identity since it can only rip-off its past. It seems every week there is a new movie opening that is a remake of a classic. And why? Because we need a newer, inferior version? 13 Ghosts by William Castle was perfect as it was and the remake was completely futile. The same with The House on Haunted Hill. And Oceans 11. And every other remake or derivative spin-off of a TV series or video game. Hollywood just hasn't got an original idea in their head. That's one train of thought. Another is that the general public can't be bothered to concentrate on any new ideas.

And with that, the gaming industry, which was once populated with mild derivatives based upon a game genre, has followed Hollywood's lead (right down to trailers for games) and decided that it can longer bother with fresh content.

What new can they bring to the table?
-That it runs in Windows?! Face it, they're better off being run in emulation or on the real thing.
-That all of the backgrounds have been replaced with blurry 3D, 24-bit bitmapped textures? And mapped polygons? (yawn)
-That it can be shipped on a shiny compact disk, complete with dramatic music score on CDDA tracks?

All of these remakes are complete tosh. I despise what modern gaming has become. It's just a murky quagmire of faceless, shallow nothingness.
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Old 14 March 2002, 10:01   #4
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I actually found a remake of Dungeon Master in Java. It's actually much harder then the original or Chaos Strikes Back!

I has all the same monsters and such, damn Screamers
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Old 14 March 2002, 12:26   #5
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Actually there are a couple of remakes I like. Such as Klass of '99 (I think that was the number), a game which remains true to the original School daze but adding graphics and sound enhancements and not really anything else. It's freeware and quite good. Now wether I'd go buy a game at full retail price they try to ship off as something original that's another question.
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Old 14 March 2002, 12:47   #6
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I dont like the idea of remakes, as most of the time they are absolute Crap!!
Anyone remember the Sensi Soccer version that came out on the PSX? Wow Christ didnt they spoil the game!!

I do like the idea of port overs though, i like the sound of the GBA & the port overs they are doing!!

Rick dangerous, speedball 2 & wings, plus many others.

The only reason Im after a GBA is because of this reason!
 
Old 14 March 2002, 13:03   #7
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Twistin'Ghost:

I don' understand why you hate so much remake because some of it is a very good thing.
Just think about:

Dungeon master (pc version 1 & 2) are dos program:
- There are today totally unplayable for many reason:
- not enough memory, too fast on actual computer speed, without sound or totally incompatible with a Winxx.

Just try to use Dungeon Master 2 with somes dos drivers and... crash/reset !

Chaos strike back have a very good remake for windows (they whas never ported to pc, and i had played it only on Amiga).

You can today play it again without difficulty.



Think about every Dos program that whas very good but are uneable to run today (not enough memory (?) i have 256 Mo of ram, what the hell (i know about the dos limitation of 640 Ko ), too fast, Wings commander really unplayable because you start the game and you are dead after 1 second of play, or the game crash for any reason, long list can follow...

X-com: for example is a very good game but cannot be played anymore, too fast to see anything.

That is one reason that i think that very good games must be remakes because if you wait that the software house publisher do it, well ... you will be die before it will do it if any chance of it.

Secondo, emulation is very good today and this resolve most of speed problem or any problem know with dos program.
But if you can play with new/and or enhanced version with better graphics, better interface like joystick in place of keys (that have not allways a good choice of) then why not ?

The remakes are made by fans for fans, or if you prefer, made just for the fun and not for money.
Made from player (and programmers) for players.
The big problem in the game industry is that the only reason of creation a game is to make a big profit in short time (with all know problems of bugs, bad story and bad playability).

Game like Manic Miner, Jet Set Willy, Monty mole, ect have gone through the time and stay in memory of thousand of players.
A proof that they are very good and that we will love it for a very long time (for eternity ?? ).
They are classics and i like the idea that they will never die because fan of this games keep it a live and make enhancement about.

Just think about an Dungeon Master online with hundreds players
at the same time with a new levels every months, with the possibility of making team and chat with others players, with a real life in game like missions, works, shops, ect...

It will be fantastic because the possibility of playing new adventure will be endless of new discovery.

Too bad, there is no Dungeon master with a real map editor that can create all new maps/monsters/puzzles, ect...
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Old 14 March 2002, 13:53   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost
All of these remakes are complete tosh. I despise what modern gaming has become. It's just a murky quagmire of faceless, shallow nothingness.


Not trying to lose friends here, but... Zzzzzz....
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Old 14 March 2002, 19:36   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maverick357
Dungeon master (pc version 1 & 2) are dos program:
- There are today totally unplayable for many reason:
- not enough memory, too fast on actual computer speed, without sound or totally incompatible with a Winxx.
On the PC they are DOS games, but why would you want to play the DOS version anyway? You're better off playing the AtariST original version in Winston than in DOS. If the game was not from another (better for gaming) platform, then maybe I can see the need for a compatible version (or a fix) but especially games from back then, I cannot understand why anyone would want to play those wretched versions of games.
Quote:
Originally posted by Maverick357
Just try to use Dungeon Master 2 with somes dos drivers and... crash/reset !

Chaos strike back have a very good remake for windows (they whas never ported to pc, and i had played it only on Amiga).

You can today play it again without difficulty.
I can play CSB without difficulty anyway...with no need for a remake.
Quote:
Originally posted by Maverick357
Think about every Dos program that whas very good but are uneable to run today (not enough memory (?) i have 256 Mo of ram, what the hell (i know about the dos limitation of 640 Ko ), too fast, Wings commander really unplayable because you start the game and you are dead after 1 second of play, or the game crash for any reason, long list can follow...
I just don't care for PC games, especially from that horrid era. I was active back then and could only laugh at the PeeCee's piss-poor attempts to do gaming, Esentially, every platform competing at that time were producing good games and the PC was at the bottom of the list. There was an infinite number of issues, incompatibilities and shortcomings to deal with even then like sound card issues, TSR issues, mouse driver issues, etc. that made installing, setting up, and playing the games a nightmare. Then the game itself was typically poorly implemented. So an accurate remake is pointless when a superior version for another platform already exists. Unless you are just adament about it being coded in Java or C# or some other high-level language.
Quote:
Originally posted by Maverick357
Secondo, emulation is very good today and this resolve most of speed problem or any problem know with dos program.
But if you can play with new/and or enhanced version with better graphics, better interface like joystick in place of keys (that have not allways a good choice of) then why not ?
It depends on how you define better graphics and enhanced. Those terms are bounced around a lot these days and seem to have morphed into a new meaning which completely escapes me.
Quote:
Originally posted by Maverick357
They are classics and i like the idea that they will never die because fan of this games keep it a live and make enhancement about.
Nothing beats the real thing...
Quote:
Originally posted by Maverick357
Just think about an Dungeon Master online with hundreds players at the same time with a new levels every months, with the possibility of making team and chat with others players, with a real life in game like missions, works, shops, ect...

Too bad, there is no Dungeon master with a real map editor that can create all new maps/monsters/puzzles, ect...
I thought there was a DM editor. But I wouldn't know how it works since I always found the game to be well overrated. But since that can be struck up to personal taste, I still think that there are enough rip-offs of this game to satisfy anyone who just can't plow through enough caves filled with monsters, spells, potions, etc. I can't get excited by the prospect of more mazes filled with hundreds of players online, since it sounds like it's just attaching features to the game that will make it more complacent and similar to so many other modern games. It's like telling someone how much better a person they will be if they dress and act like all of the other people who are keeping up with the newest clothes and trends. I lean more in the direction of uniqueness and distinction and less in the direction of conformity to sameness.

Sorry if this philosphy bores some of you.
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Old 15 March 2002, 01:21   #10
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Twistin'Ghost:


I know that pc platform games whas craps, and this is not about that genre of game that i say that they are very good, but about the wings commander serie for example (just one is done on Amiga but in german, the others of this serie is never born on the Amiga/st) or strategic/rpg/adventure games.

Think about that before 16 bits computers exist (Amiga/Atari ST), the history of gaming computers whas only 8 bits.
There whas great games made on this computers like pac-man, space invaders, ect... but you cannot ask to have 16 bits/32 bits graphics with 8 bits computers.

Gaming memory and history must stay a whole part of us, because if we forget 8 bits computers whe will forget the roots of every game made so far.

Every game in the world of in the past and of today is based on the same mecanics, the platform game of 1985 for example is based on the same principle of today.
This is allways kill the monster, get the key, got to the next level.
Only the scenario (story) is different but the gaming fun is the same.

And this is true for Amiga games too, if look well without passion,
without already made idea, you will see that every platform game on Amiga is based on the same technic (a game engine + datas for every levels),



CSB whas not the best of dungeon Master, i prefer the first one.


What you say about Dos gaming experience is true, a real nightmare when you start playing with dos games.
But too bad, there is a lot of games that whas never ported on others platform like Amiga/Atari ST (just think about the very good strategy game Warcraft or command & Conquer )

When i speak about better graphics and enhanced, i will say that full 256 colors with higher screen resolution is better than 4/8 colours with 256 x 192 for screen size.

Enhancement is : with high quality musics, a level editor with a lot of new levels and possibility in the games (for example: with 8 bits, you cannot have more than 256 tileset and that limits the mecanic of the game like attract or repulse for an steel ball game).

Yes it think too, that like/not like DM is a personal taste.
And for online games, i thinck personaly that had some live to a game because for AI of people inside the game (NPC), they will never beat the brain of human .
A human will allways interact for every action you made or you say.

Most of the time, NPC reply 'i cannot understand' or 'i don't know about it' when you ask something inhabitual at an NPC.
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Old 15 March 2002, 01:55   #11
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I can understand what you are looking for with remakes of old 8-bit games. In theory, this should be a good thing. On a smarter OS, it probably would be a good thing. The problem lies in the fact that the idea is usually ruined by lazy programmers who expect the wow-factor of the newer machine to be the factor that makes the remake worth investigating. To clarify, simply having more colors will not make for a better game, for example. Creatures C64>Creatures Amiga is a good example of how the shift from 8-bit to 16-bit alone could not elevate the conversion into the realm of being a better game. (And I made a point to use an example of an Amiga game falling short, rather than a PC game!)

Since most PC games are coded using a high level language using standard libraries, etc., it seems the majority of the work is simplified for the programmer (as opposed to the painstaking task of coding in a low-level language). Too many programmers think they will have a better game simply because the bar has been raised on how many colors they can have, or the fact that they can have CD-quality audio. Or worst yet, license an engine that everybody is already licensing. And having to deal with undocumented API's. The PC just seems incapable of escaping compatibility issues and problems associated with simply being for Windows.

A correction I'd like to make, however, from your post (unless I just read it wrong): Wing Commander was indeed released on the Amiga in English.

Your comments on preserving gaming history don't apply to remakes, considering the originals have already been preserved.

Another point: those great games you named from the 8-bit era, like Pac-Man, Space Invaders, etc. were great not because of all the fancy doo-dads that litter the remakes. They were great because they captivated the player with brilliant gameplay even in the absence of modern gfx and sound. The frills don't really alter the quality of the game itself, IMHO. Likewise, a dire game will be dire whether in 24-bit or on an Atari 2600!
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Old 15 March 2002, 02:58   #12
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Quote:
Too many programmers think they will have a better game simply because the bar has been raised on how many colors they can have, or the fact that they can have CD-quality audio. Or worst yet, license an engine that everybody is already licensing.
Yes this is badly true, you have right.

Quote:
Wing Commander was indeed released on the Amiga in English.
Well, then i am happy because i have searched through every website for Amiga on the internet but never find it.

If you have it, can you put it in the zone ?

Quote:
They were great because they captivated the player with brilliant gameplay even in the absence of modern gfx and sound. The frills don't really alter the quality of the game itself, IMHO. Likewise, a dire game will be dire whether in 24-bit or on an Atari 2600!
True and i play much of the time with the original pac-man/space-inders (trough MAME) than with remakes.

Quote:
Your comments on preserving gaming history don't apply to remakes, considering the originals have already been preserved.
True for conservation of the original but there is no levels editors inside

I am a real fan of retro-gaming, but i like programming too.
If you want today create a game that people like YOU MUST have terrific graphics/sounds/musics, and you cannot do this without paying a team of graphics/sound designer/artist.

I can programming, but i can absolutly not make graphics or musics.

Today, it is not like in the 198x year anymore, you cannot sit behind you computer 16 hours/day to create alone a big game that everybody love it.

When i had my Amiga (and later the pc in dos) i whas looking the code of the game/program to see how it work.
In the time of the dos i whas for every important game looking in to it with a disassembler or a debugger because the program whas small and readible code (today it is not possible anymore because they use objet language and VERY HUGE executable).
Today when i look inside a program, it is through an Z80 program code (debugger inside the emulator) for a game or i try to disassemble the snapshot (more easy because it 128K max size).

I find it fun to look how it is made, it is a part of the game to try a poke in the code for infinite life, for example.
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Old 15 March 2002, 09:37   #13
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Quote:
by twistin ghost
To clarify, simply having more colors will not make for a better game, for example. Creatures C64>Creatures Amiga is a good example of how the shift from 8-bit to 16-bit alone could not elevate the conversion into the realm of being a better game.
you hit your head on the nail there. The graphics in Creatures on the Amiga were far better than the C64 was able to muster, but at the same time it lost a lot of it's appeal which is really a shame. The creatures are cuter now though, and it was supposed to be a cute platform game right?

And I remember in the computer mag we had's mailbox. There were very frequently people complaining about the Amiga because they had left the C64 to find that most games there were purely graphic games with lack of gameplay and that they wanted their old classics back.

Take for example Impossamole, another conversion (and darn hard to get to run on anything but an A500 apparently), it was very playable on the C64 but lost ounces of gameplay on the Amiga. I'd still like to see Monty on the run for another platform than the C64 though, the reason for this is that while emulation is taking very very large steps forwards they're still not bug free. They take up a lot of your pc's resources. Many a time where I've felt I shouldn't mess too much with my PC because it MUST NOT CRASH NOW have I sat down with my Amiga now that the PC had finally given me spare time. If you have a task to do an emulator would have greater risk of crashing the system because the emulator will mess in places ordinary games don't
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Old 15 March 2002, 12:04   #14
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@Drake1009
It seems like when publishers go wrong is when they attempt remakes. It's not neccesarily the fault of the newer system that its sound or graphics are more advanced. But very often that very factor will be what kills the remake, since the programmer will use that as a shortcut and expect it to substitute depth or imagination. If it's a remake especially, since that will be the first thing people will be attracted to in such a game.

The Amiga always showed its best colors on its own games. Or on games that were cross-developed for multiple platforms. Probably its lowest point was on shovelware from the ST and PC.

@Maverick367
Your Wing Commander English version is in the Zone.
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Old 15 March 2002, 12:12   #15
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Drake1009:

You say that emulators crash a lot because they mess, well this is true and false.

False when you use the last version of the emulator (of good emulators that is update and debugged frequently like Steem or ZSnes ).

True if you consider the WinUAE emulator because this is the emulator that crash the most today.

I use personnaly a lot of emulators for many emulated system and somes emulators are really craps (for example there is no MSX emulators that worth it because there are all too slow and crash many times), others are not finished or not updated enough .

But some are very good and can be used as an example of what must be an emulator (RealSpectrum for Dos, XZX for linux) (ZSNes is THE reference in SNes emulation and crash only if the rom is bad dumped/corrupt other else they crash never).

Steem emulator crash not if you do nothing stupid but if he crash then it does properly without crashing the system.

And i can continue the list for Gameboy, Amstrad, C64, Nes, ect...

Only today WinUAE an Winfellow, if they crash then you can reset the pc because it mess up with the OS.

And this is not a rarety that Amiga emulator crash a lot if you use difficult Amiga roms (like games that only work with A500 and not the A520).

I know that WinUAE is not a finish emulator but remember that is not an native code for windows (too bad) but only a linux program recompiled for window.

This is maybee why WinUAE is so slow (just compare the speed between 0.88 and the speed with the last version of WinUAE.
For adventure games this is not critical, but for arcade games this can make the game unplayable or instable.

I hope that in the futur there will be a real native code for windows of WinUAE (with delphi or pure C, compilers that are 100% free, this native code be optimized and debugged for windows and not keep bugs/slow code from linux to windows)..

Or maybee somebody (a programmer alone or a team of hacker ) will start a very new Amiga emulator without bugs (like the standard quality of ZSNes).

If somes programmer can today make emulators for N64 or Playstation (more complex consoles than the Amiga) than a perfect emulator can be done for the Amiga.

The trick that have used the authors of ZSnes is emulated at 100% the hardware of the SNes, this is the example to follow with every emulators because you get a very fast/without crash emulation.
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Old 15 March 2002, 12:30   #16
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Twistin'Ghost :

Thousands thanks Twistin'Ghost:

The game is very playable but in comparison with the pc version (that i have buy/played in original version when out) :

Lesser colors and lower screen resolution make some text or combat info not easy readible.

The face of somes NPC is not very beautifull like the pc version.
For the rest i will see it later because i need an intensive training and read the docs before getting in the game seriouly.

Thanks again
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Old 15 March 2002, 12:44   #17
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I'm a firm believer in 'remake sequels'. A project I recently undertook, but have heard nothing from (RETROMAN!) was to make a sequel to Gods. Using the original graphics touched up in a nice way (Twist : Not the messy semi-3D bitmaps you mentioned) and a complete new level design and possibly some new features. This sort of thing gets me very excited, and regardless of what people think I enjoy it. To look at remakes in this way from a programmers point of view VASTLY differs from a gameplayers point of view. For a programmer who is ALSO a gameplayer, the excitment of possibilities is endless and overwhelming.

From a backroom coders point of view this thread can be seen very different. This is why I responded to Twists point of view with a pathetic hint of irony. I consider myself a backroom coder and the whole subject tends to get me a little over exciting.

Incidentally, suggestions for REMAKE SEQUELS are still welcome
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Old 15 March 2002, 14:15   #18
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Well, I was speaking of this subject in the broad sense. And more in the vain of commercial games, although I have seen some real crap backroom games trying to make the game follow the idiotic conventions of commercial games.

I believe remakes can be good, conceptually. But the odds are against it. I still find Windows a poor excuse for a gaming platform. But I mean no offense to you, Peej.

@Maverick357
You suggest systems like N64 and PSX being more complex to emulate than the Amiga, but you have to remember this: those systems are mostly static and don't contain as many hardware variables as the Amiga. The Amiga is a computer, not a console. A console will always be easier to emulate since the hardware is defined and locked in (for the most part). Emulating an Amiga means complex disk emulation, dealing with various types (and amounts) of memory, DOS and custom non-DOS disk formats, self-modifying code, custom chip emulation, different processors, variable hardware configurations, different actual machines and accompanying roms, and hacked/cracked programs that have been hard-coded to specific machine specs - including region specific code (PAL/NTSC). And buggy trainers/fixes/cracks. And many other factors that make Amiga emulation a far more complex task than, say SNES emulation which has a fixed spec. Something to think about...
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Old 15 March 2002, 14:30   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeewolf
I do like the idea of port overs though, i like the sound of the GBA & the port overs they are doing!!

If one is meticulous about what they're doing then the line between 'Remake' and 'Port' can become very thin indeed. Although the principles/procedures involved are completely different, the end result may not be.
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Old 16 March 2002, 05:22   #20
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Sorry for the complete Off Topic here...

@maverick357

You don't like the MSX emulators? Most emulators I tried are pretty good. FMSX-DOS is very simple to use, fast in my P233 ( running at 100% of speed with no frameskip), although it's true it has some problem running some games (F1-Spirit 3D and SD-Snatcher, for example, and lots of European Disk-games). NO$MSX is VERY fast (There's even a XT version of it), and it runs most European disk-games, even those that uses weird tricks, and there's also BRMSX, that runs basically everything, and it's fast even in a 386, but it's true isn't the most user-friendly emulator ever.

Those are the MSX emus I use the most , they are really fast for me, and they never crash... I don't use many MSX emulators really, because I have the real thing (And nothing beats the real thing ), maybe there are even better emulators around
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