Over rated games

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by marco pedrana

why noone totally agree with me ever? kiddin

LOL

I agree with your post also Marco

...was just too lazy at the time to right a reply

[Legerdemain]

Originally Posted by marco pedrana

why noone totally agree with me ever? kiddin

I do totally agree with you. I just missed your post, and had I read it a bit earlier (not like now, AFTER I had written my reply) I would not have written mine since your post pretty much sums up everything I did say.

[Marcuz]

hey guys i was just being silly

[Legerdemain]

Originally Posted by marco pedrana

hey guys i was just being silly

Well, I was just being honest...

[Dastardly]

Originally Posted by Legerdemain

what to me feels like bland level design can to others be genius level design.

Can I just ask what Amiga platformers you consider to have such good level design that they make Gods level design seem bland to you?

[Legerdemain]

@Dastardly

Turrican 2, to name one. The majority of the levels in Superfrog. Chuck Rock 2 (?). Lionheart (as far as I have played, though the game I have in my posession is broken). But, like someone said earlier... I am tempted to agree that it might be that the fact that I am disliking too many aspects of the game to be able to see the 'genius' of the level design in Gods. I just can't bother about it, since I'm having enough trouble to keep the interest up for more than a couple of minutes... (due to all the things I have mentioned earlier).

My impression, however, as far as I have played the game is that the level design is tedious and repetative... which in turn I've come to feel, much due to it giving me the impression of having the classic Amiga 'maze'-style design, with pretty much the same graphics used from beginning to end in each level (in a way that makes the game feel even more maze like). A rather monotomous feeling, it gives me. Much like the design of the Alien Breed levels. At times, you get the feeling of not really knowing where you are or where you are going. Even though games like Super Metroid and Castlevania - Symphony of the Night are maze like, they just don't feel repetative in the same way.

But, like I said, I just migt have been blinded by the aspects of the game which bothers me so much. So blinded that I just can't see what so many people think is there to be found (especially concerning the level design).

I recall that when being ported to consoles it got pretty bashed by the reviewers. Some Swedish magazines gave it a really low score, and in general the game didn't seem to get that well recieved, neither by the public or by the media. I haven't played those versions... so I don't know what to think of them. But, what springs to mind is that I have always been more of a fan of console platformers. More so than computer platformers. I have always felt that really genius level design came from Japan, where levels could be short aswell as long, but always intriguing and genuine and non repetative all the way through. With computer platformers, especially european ones, the levels easily felt like they could get enormous, repetative graphicswise and too often 'maze' like with different 'missions' to accomplish to be able to enter the exit (Zool, Superfrog, Kid Chaos and such). I think it was pretty apparent in rather many genres. European shooters, for example... where a level in itself in games like Gradius, Salamander and R-Type NEVER got repetative, games like Xenon 2, Project-X and other computer shooters had looooooooooooong and repetative levels which never seemed to end.

But, of course this is not true in all cases. There are quite a few exceptions. Anyways, my point here is that there are many things which might have coloured my opinion concerning Gods. Just with pretty much everything related to opinions in this world. We don't just have them for no reason at all. I just feel that although some of my opinions on Gods are nothing but personal opinions, I do feel entitled to have them even though many will disgree with them. Some of the more technical aspects of the game, like the choppy scrolling and slow controls, though, are things that I find it hard for someone to ever disagree with. You can't say that the scroll is smooth, when comparing Gods to a game such as Superfrog. You can't say that the controls are fast and responsive, when comparing Gods to a game like Mega Man. But, you can, of course, say that the level design is genius at the same time as someone finds it horrible... because, then we have left the technical aspects of the game and entered the realm of personal opinions.

I don't really know what more to say, more so than I just can't see the greatness of Gods. I think it is way too flawed for me to find it enjoyable.

[Muzkat]

Originally Posted by Chaotica

Dast said almost everything I wished to say, and he put it in a way I never could have! But if I may, these are some additional reasons of mine why Gods is my favourite Amiga game, in addition to Dast's:

The graphics are beautiful, and in some instances I feel they rival that of the Beast games. Not only this, but they are so painstakingly detailed; you can tell some poor artist was at his computer for a very long time, putting in so much effort. The wooden doors, the chipped and decaying bricks, the flickering candles, the lighting seen through the windows which changes as you ascend or descend in a level, the many gems and items you pick up, the beautifully coloured interiors and backgrounds. The sprites are so well drawn and animated, never blocky or jerky - even the plume on Hercules' helmet moves as he walks, if I recall correctly. The sense that you are entering and interacting with the ancient Greek era is inescapable, due to these beautiful and startlingly detailed graphics. The second world - the labrynth - is the best example of this. For an Amiga game, and for a platformer in general, the immersion is quite amazing.

As Dast has said, the AI in the game is groundbreaking - the game rewards you if you are progressing well, either by finding secrets, maintaining health, or progressing speedily through the game. The game also helps you out if you are not doing so good, giving you some powerups, health, and even an extra life when you are struggling. I honestly think Gods had one of the best computer AIs in Amiga gaming, if not the best.

The inventory system - a small detail, in how you pick up special items by crouching on them, and allocating them a spot - but to be honest, I have never seen anything like that in Amiga gaming.

The message bar at the bottom of the screen - sometimes helping you out, sometimes giving you cheeky, cryptic clues, and at other times warning you of imminent danger. All fitting neatly into the game world, not sticking out and ruining the experience like many other bars in games. Excellent.

The speed of the game was just fun for what it is - a more serious platformer, where exploration and adventure is the name of the game, not speed. Dast is right - if people want speed, they should play Mario or Sonic, platformers I honestly never enjoyed much. I also do not know how people can call the pace and animation of Gods jerky - I feel that it is one of the smoothest rides on the Amiga. I can never pick a single frame visibly sacrificed...even though the graphics of the game are so beautiful.

The game also contains so many various weapons. Projectiles which spread fire, or narrow fire, which pass through enemies and objects (such as doors), projectiles which do not, projectiles which can destroy selected scenery, such as bricks, weapons which fly through the air, hover in the air, home in on enemies, or bounce along the floor.

The bosses - really, really cool bosses, that are gorgeously drawn and animated, and put up a decent fight, but which are actually beatable without cheats. I'll never forget the first time I met the first boss; how I entered a large room, saw and heard the door slam shut behind me, and then (after stressing at what was going to happen during a brief loading time!) having to face the Centurion.

And finally, what can only be described as the game's balance - there are lots of secrets to be discovered, but you don't have solve all of them if you don't want to. Most of the secrets are testing, but not to the point where you are tearing your hair out in frustration. The only real challenging secrets are the ones that can be disregarded.

Dast commented on the sounds, so I won't say much, except that they are very crisp and very appropriate to the game. The sounds of traps shutting far off is a favourite, as are the sounds of the spikes slowly, menacingly, rotating. In particular, I love the sounds coming from the main sprite - the "thud thud" as he walks, the groans when he is hit, or when he jumps, as well as his tormented scream when he dies. This death animation is also very well drawn, and perhaps the most original death animation I have seen in any game.

I have always felt that Gods is easily the best the Bitmaps had to offer (Speedball II and Chaos Engine coming close, though), and that it was one of the best games the Amiga 500 era produced. The gorgeous graphics, sharp sounds, balanced gameplay, sheer detail and groundbreaking AI make it an absolute masterpiece in my eyes. A masterpiece, all on two disks, with barely any disk swapping if you didn't have a second disk drive.

I wrote this on the Lemon Amiga board awhile back in defence of Gods. I couldn't be bothered making a new post about the game, so I quoted myself from another board. As you can see, I'm quite passionate about the game.

I think Gods is the best game on the Amiga, and one of the best games ever made, definately the Bitmaps crowning achievement - no other game has given me such fond memories, on any platform. For me, it was beauty back then, and it still is beauty now - so much more then a game.

I cannot for the life of me see any choppiness or slowness about it - it was always super smooth to me. The controls were just fine in my opinion too - making such a humungous point about not being able to change direction mid-jump is quite nitpicky, in my opinion. The pace is slow, yes, but that is because it is a thinking man's platformer, not a diamond collector. Gods is meant to be explored. Hence I disagree with any comparisons to games like Mario, or Sonic or Superfrog.

And there you go...I just love Gods. Even when that song by Nation 12 begins to play in the intro, and those golden letters appear, I still get a shiver. Just my two cents.

Originally Posted by Muzkat

I cannot for the life of me see any choppiness or slowness about it - it was always super smooth to me.

Cannot see the choppiness? The game is updating the screen like once every three frames, that is certainly not super smooth.

If someone had given Bitari Brothers a book on how to utilize the Amiga hardware I suppose they could have actually made some decent games.

[Legerdemain]

Originally Posted by Muzkat

I cannot for the life of me see any choppiness or slowness about it - it was always super smooth to me. The controls were just fine in my opinion too - making such a humungous point about not being able to change direction mid-jump is quite nitpicky, in my opinion. The pace is slow, yes, but that is because it is a thinking man's platformer, not a diamond collector. Gods is meant to be explored. Hence I disagree with any comparisons to games like Mario, or Sonic or Superfrog.

Well, as I've said, the controls are of course as good as the player finds them. I dislike this particular way of controling the character, but if the controls would have been extremely responsive, well, then I guess people that like Gods wouldn't feel like it was Gods anymore. It simply doesn't appeal to me.

Though, that you can't see the choppy scrolling is for me a mystery. But, on the other hand, people in general seem not to notice bad scrolling when they see it. Ruff'n Tumble being the prime example of this. But, the playing area of the screen in Gods refreshes something like every 1/4 of how smooth it actually COULD update (I am 100% sure this is due to Gods having been ported from the Atari ST, because the Amiga would have no trouble whatsoever with updating the screen in full 50Hz). Thus, when you move you don't see things 'fluently moving' 4 pixels on the screen when the game scrolls, rather, it JUMPS 4 pixels at each update. To me a game with bad scrolling automatically feels quite dated. With strategy games, it is ok with bad scrolling, but with platform games I find it essential that the scrolling (and the update of the screen) is good. Especially when games are as picky as Gods is concerning enemies and traps. Fluid scroll would have added SO much, I think. No matter if the game is slow paced or not. It would have looked prettier and possibly felt easier to control.

[Dastardly]

Originally Posted by Legerdemain

@Dastardly

Turrican 2, to name one. The majority of the levels in Superfrog. Chuck Rock 2 (?). Lionheart (as far as I have played, though the game I have in my posession is broken). But, like someone said earlier... I am tempted to agree that it might be that the fact that I am disliking too many aspects of the game to be able to see the 'genius' of the level design in Gods.

I definitely think this is the case. I've played all of those games and dont consider ANY of them to have better level design.

Originally Posted by Legerdemain

My impression, however, as far as I have played the game is that the level design is tedious and repetative... which in turn I've come to feel, much due to it giving me the impression of having the classic Amiga 'maze'-style design, with pretty much the same graphics used from beginning to end in each level

In my experience most platformers of that era reuse the same graphics in a level from beginning to end due to technical reasons. Ive played Super Metroid and from what I remember its far far more repetitive looking than Gods.

Originally Posted by Legerdemain

I recall that when being ported to consoles it got pretty bashed by the reviewers. Some Swedish magazines gave it a really low score, and in general the game didn't seem to get that well recieved, neither by the public or by the media. I haven't played those versions... so I don't know what to think of them. But, what springs to mind is that I have always been more of a fan of console platformers.

I think the fact that Gods didnt get amazing reviews from Console mags is it simply isnt your typical console game. Console gamers generally want faster paced platformers and they want the ability to change direction mid jump and have the character instantly flip when they turn around. These traits are great in their place but none of these things would suit a game like Gods.

Originally Posted by Legerdemain

You can't say that the scroll is smooth, when comparing Gods to a game such as Superfrog. You can't say that the controls are fast and responsive, when comparing Gods to a game like Mega Man. But, you can, of course, say that the level design is genius at the same time as someone finds it horrible... because, then we have left the technical aspects of the game and entered the realm of personal opinions.

I agree with what Muzkat says regarding the scrolling. It has NEVER been an issue for me and I can honestly say that I never even noticed any 'choppy' scrolling. Regarding the level design, see my first point.

Originally Posted by Muzkat

The pace is slow, yes, but that is because it is a thinking man's platformer, not a diamond collector. Gods is meant to be explored. Hence I disagree with any comparisons to games like Mario, or Sonic or Superfrog.

I agree 100% with this point. It isn't Superfrog/Megaman/Sonic and was never intended to be.

[Legerdemain]

Originally Posted by Dastardly

I definitely think this is the case. I've played all of those games and dont consider ANY of them to have better level design. In my experience most platformers of that era reuse the same graphics in a level from beginning to end due to technical reasons. I've played Super Metroid and from what I remember its far far more repetitive looking than Gods.

Well, it might be that that was your impression on Super Metroid, but technically speaking, it has got like 50+ different enemies and the look of entire world changes on an almost room to room basis (depending on what area you currently are visiting whereas the Norfair area is more repetative than the others). In Gods you have got four (is it?) different worlds which has to offer one type of graphics per world. In Super Metroid you have got probably around 30-40 different types of areas, graphicswise. So, yes, your impression might have been that it was repetative, but personal opinions aside, it is far from as repeative as Gods in its graphics (although I have to say it once again, I think the graphics in Gods are extremely nice, repetative or not).

I think the fact that Gods didnt get amazing reviews from Console mags is it simply isnt your typical console game. Console gamers generally want faster paced platformers and they want the ability to change direction mid jump and have the character instantly flip when they turn around. These traits are great in their place but none of these things would suit a game like Gods.

I have to agree. Gods wasn't your typical console game at all, and that did probably act as a potential turn off for many reviewers. But, on the other hand, most often when console gaming magazines (the ones that I have been reading through the years, at least), critisized games that were 'computer-ish' or ports from computers, I think they managed pretty well to rant when the ranting was completely understandable. Like when Warcraft 2 for the Saturn got bashed for not being able to adapt the controls in a good way to a joypad instead of a mouse, or when Turrican for the GameBoy simply didn't manage to live up to its Amiga predecessor. And, just like there was a war between owners of SEGA's consoles and owners of Nintendo's consoles, there was probably a war between those that prefered computer games instead of console games (although I never really experienced one myself).

I agree with what Muzkat says regarding the scrolling. It has NEVER been an issue for me and I can honestly say that I never even noticed any 'choppy' scrolling. [...] I agree 100% with this point. It isn't Superfrog/Megaman/Sonic and was never intended to be.

Well, if it hasn't been an issue to you, I'm glad on your behalf! But, if you haven't noticed any choopy scrolling routines, well, then I can't think of much else than me having much higher demands on the scroll, and/or screen refresh, than you have (in all honesty, people doesn't even seem to bother that Shadow of the Collossus for the PS2 drops down to 8-10 FPS at times, which to me almost renders the game unplayable). I think smooth scrolling, and/or screen refresh, is essential and to me Gods doesn't offer that. It doesn't really matter to me if Gods is slow paced or not, the choppy scrolling routines just makes the game look, and feel, like a rather hasted Atari ST port.

And, concerning Superfrog/Megaman/Sonic or whatever other platform game... neither do I think that Gods ever was inteded to be a game in the style of those mentioned... I think it was inteded to be a slow paced action/adventure game with tones of puzzles to be solved and alternative routes to be found on the way to the end of each stage, and, you know what? I think they succeded making it such a game. Its presentation, however, I don't think they succeded with (hence all my ranting), and as a side effect to me the game and its levels feels tedius to play. This I am saying just to make it clear that it is not that I generally dislike the genre Gods represents.

At times, I don't even think that I am getting my points through. Why I dislike the game, that is. And, it feels somewhat like this discussion is going around in circles. Personal opinions, that is one thing... and those I think everyone is entitled to have, and thus... what makes a good game to one could be a bad game to another, which pretty much renders the whole discussion useless... (but obviously people find it interesting, otherwise it would not have gone on for this long)... but, I can't understand how some can't understand why I am bothered by the choppy scrolling... no matter what they personally feel concerning the very same matter. I mean, if you had the choice, would you keep it as it is, or would you not mind it scrolling as good as it could have done if they had put a little more effort into the port?

[Dastardly]

Originally Posted by Legerdemain

I mean, if you had the choice, would you keep it as it is, or would you not mind it scrolling as good as it could have done if they had put a little more effort into the port?

I can honestly say I wouldnt change it in any way. As I said before, the scrolling isnt an issue for me, I dont even notice anything wrong with it. Yes other games have better scrolling but that to me doesnt automatically make Gods scrolling bad.

I think if it changed in any way it wouldnt be the same game to me.

[Marcuz]

well you guys disagree, get over it

[Dastardly]

Just a friendly debate about the pros and pros of Gods

[Ultron]

Originally Posted by Dastardly

I definitely think this is the case. I've played all of those games and dont consider ANY of them to have better level design.

Yeah, the idea that "Chuck Rock" has batter level design than Gods, it's pretty much bordering on the insane line. Superfrog? No, really

Turrican II is the only one that could be sanely held as a contendent, but Turrican is definitely about the songs, playability, arcade value, not about Level-Design, in Gods you could hand out certain items to thiefs and watch manipulate them to do your bidding, where the hell's that in Turrican II.

To be fully honest at least we can conclude that the only people who'd in their right mind claim that Gods' level design 'sucks' who'd have to be the same that claim Chuck Rock and Super frog are the be all end all of Game and Level design.

Anyone else can just see the Genius of a game that's got more secret passages and alternate paths plus more item bonuses than yer granny's got wrinkles.

[Legerdemain]

Originally Posted by Ultron

Yeah, the idea that "Chuck Rock" has batter level design than Gods, it's pretty much bordering on the insane line. Superfrog? No, really

Turrican II is the only one that could be sanely held as a contendent, but Turrican is definitely about the songs, playability, arcade value, not about Level-Design, in Gods you could hand out certain items to thiefs and watch manipulate them to do your bidding, where the hell's that in Turrican II.

To be fully honest at least we can conclude that the only people who'd in their right mind claim that Gods' level design 'sucks' who'd have to be the same that claim Chuck Rock and Super frog are the be all end all of Game and Level design.

Chuck Rock, no, but Chuck Rock 2, yes, according to me. Why? Because I think Chuck Rock 2 does what it is supposed to do with its levels. It has got nothing to do with their size, their alternative routes or possible secrets to be found. I find they more fun to play. And, once again it is nothing more than personal opinions... which you seem to have big trouble dealing with?

I just can't find much constructiveness in what you are writing? Even though you really like Gods, does that have to keep you from respecting other peoples personal opinions, like the rest of the ones that have posted in this thread seemed to have done pretty well?

[ungi]

Well, I like Gods and do not think that the scrolling is that bad (maybe because of the slow gameplay?), but I ageree that the Bitmap Brothers were NOT the masters of smooth scrolling and fast screen updates on the Amiga. The scrolling ruined "Magic Pockets" to the point of making it unplayable for me, and which IMHO had an even worse scrolling than Ruff n Tumble.

Wasn´t Magic Pockets based on the Gods engine?

[Legerdemain]

Just to really see what I was missing out on, concerning Gods, I did download a longrun of the game and watched it (since I can't manage to convince myself to give it more time and chances than I already have).

Earlier I said that the game, to me, had a bland level design... and, well, yes, I still think it has, but only graphicswise (I love the graphics, but not the way the building block of each level feels overused making the levels, to me, LOOK rather repetetative and monotonous).

It is very obvious though that they have spent a good amount of time filling the levels with tons of secrets and god knows what... and, I can fully understand why that aspect of the game is so appreciated.

Still. I just have to give up and admit to myself that I will never see the glory of this game. I have given it more chances than I normally would have done with any game. The only conclusion I can come to... is that what it has to offer game play wise I just can't appreciate due to the other aspects of the game that bothers me. I am impressed with how many people really got into the game and apparently came to love every aspect of it, more or less. It really does feel like a game that shouldn't, looking at the history books on gaming, have appealed to the masses the way it did (or, at least it have given that impression during the years, but maybe it just have been the fans of the game that have been very loud, what do I know). But one have never known, and will never know, how the world will turn. And I am certainly no 'expert' on gaming. Just an individual having some personal opinions on much things related to digital games.

I'm done with Gods now. Next game to disassemble, anyone?

[BippyM]

I like gods, I like Superfrog, I like Sonic, I like Giana Sisters.. I don't like Chuck Rock 2

I just can't get into the game for whatever reason, and i'm sure you guys appreciate that!

With gods I think the levels can be a bit big, and maybe if they had utilised a constant loading system like SWIV the graphics could have changed as one played it, to make it less repetitive looking..

This is the main reason I hate most FPS games, as I get lost too easily with all the walls etc looking the same and being repetitive.

The levels in Gods are generally huge, and slow. This is why I understand some members not liking it. For others I understand and can see why they enjoy it so much

I was WOW'd when gods was first released, and my only wish is that it was developed on Amiga and then ported and scaled down for the ST. The game could have been visually much better if it had used 32 colours!

Image what it could have looked like on an AGA machine. It could also have had some background music to add to the ambience

[Dastardly]

Originally Posted by bippym

Image what it could have looked like on an AGA machine. It could also have had some background music to add to the ambience

I quite like the fact it has no in game music. I think if it had then it would make the gameplay quite different as part of the game is listening out for distant trapdoors, aliens spawning, objects falling etc as a result of level switches etc. Im not sure how this would work with music.

Im sure if it did have music it would have been excellent.