21 April 2015, 20:06 | #41 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ
Posts: 741
|
Anything 040 specific can be made to work with the 020, with the exception of the MMU. The FPU can be completely emulated in software - the original MAC II machines had either a 68882 or nothing, in which case FPU calls are trapped and done in software. Likewise, even some of Apple's 040 machines used LC040's (MMU only, no FPU). There are some differences in the exception handling for the 040, but all in all, it's not a stretch to make the 020 core 040 compatible for anything that does not need the MMU. From a CPU core standpoint, implementing the 040's MMU is hands down easier than the 030, because the 030 has multiple translation table sizes and other oddities that came from the 68851. With the 040 its either 4k or 8K page, and that's it.
|
23 April 2015, 23:35 | #42 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 104
|
Quote:
A fast 020 is nice, but for demos and some games I play I need an 060. @JimDrew How fast will the daughter board run at? |
|
24 April 2015, 01:10 | #43 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ
Posts: 741
|
I think the daughter board uses a 75MHz 060, but I guess that people don't understand that the FPGA's 020 core is much faster than the real 060 daughter board setup.
|
24 April 2015, 01:40 | #44 | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Norfolk, UK
Posts: 1,153
|
Quote:
Quote:
A mega-fast '020 is a very interesting processor but I remain to be convinced that FPU emulation won't come with a severe speed penalty - I'd love to be proved wrong though. I remember playing with a Mac SoftFPU in ShapeShifter and being delighted to see that the emulated FPU leaked over into the Amiga side too - yet I don't think anyone created an equivalent for the Amiga, did they? |
||
24 April 2015, 02:38 | #45 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,284
|
Quote:
Quote:
1) hard FPU like 68060 2) FPGA FPU emulation 3) software floating point Floating point for the 68k requires fast wide shifting which is slow in an FPGA. Of course speed is relative as 6888x performance should be possible in FPGA but even 68060@50MHz FPU performance would likely be difficult. Quote:
1) IEEE math fp libraries (accelerated with FPU) 2) FFP math fp libraries (faster than IEEE but no FPU acceleration) 3) compiling with software fp SAS/C (Lattice) allowed all 3 options above from very early and other compilers had similar options as well. FPU emulation would likely involve trapping which would be slower than all the options above. |
|||
24 April 2015, 04:43 | #46 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ
Posts: 741
|
With Mac emulation on the 060 you need superscaler off, and most often need the instruction cache off as well (depending on the application). A 33MHz 040 beats a 50MHz 060 in Mac benchmarks.
What makes you think shifting of any width is "slow" on an FPGA? |
24 April 2015, 05:07 | #47 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,284
|
Quote:
[ Show youtube player ] Do you think a 68040 can give this performance? The Mac benchmarks show the 68060@106MHz to outperform the 68040 and even early PPC processors. Most FPGAs have multipliers which can be used for shifts but a 64 bit or even 53 bit shift is too wide for this. Larger shifts are not a problem but take more logic and several cycles. Even the 6888x could do a significand (fraction) shift in 1 cycle. Most FPU operations require the shift as part of the normalization process. |
|
24 April 2015, 07:08 | #48 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Melbourne/Australia
Posts: 4,400
|
Quote:
At this point in time, I'd be more interested in purchasing an new FPGA based accelerator than a real 060 based board. |
|
24 April 2015, 08:17 | #49 | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 104
|
Quote:
I don't know about other ppl but 95% of the demos and games I want to run need an 060. WHDLoad is another story though. So the only option to get 100% compatibility would be to have either 060 emulation or an 060. So it is not about speed but compatibility, unless there is a trick to fool software into running on the 020... Quote:
Last edited by lurch; 24 April 2015 at 08:27. |
||
24 April 2015, 10:39 | #50 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 406
|
Quote:
Chris |
|
24 April 2015, 23:12 | #51 | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ
Posts: 741
|
Quote:
This is why Hollywood production studios used EMPLANT equipped Amigas to replace their Macs for doing rendering and using Avid video editing software. Quote:
|
||
24 April 2015, 23:15 | #52 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ
Posts: 741
|
Mike has stated that with the caches enabled you will have more than a 4x speed boost to what you are seeing now. That will be improved upon as well.
|
25 April 2015, 01:59 | #53 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 406
|
Quote:
A more minor point - Mike has said "close to 4x the speed" but you've translated that as "more than 4x speed boost". Is this based on a separate conversation or is it more exaggeration? Obviously improvements can happen beyond that, but then we're getting very hypothetical when not even the caching work has been finished yet. You say "the FPGA's 020 core is much faster than the real 060 daughter board setup" without any kind of caveats. So with all due respect, I think you're being a little misleading and as a reseller you should be clear about the facts if someone is considering putting in a preorder with you. The FPGA Arcade is a great machine with even greater potential and it doesn't need any extra push. Again, if I'm wrong on any of this please correct me. Chris Last edited by clebin; 25 April 2015 at 02:16. |
|
25 April 2015, 03:30 | #54 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,284
|
Quote:
Quote:
1) easily overclockable 68060 performance 2) 100% 68060 compatibility including FPU and MMU 3) 128MB of memory 4) ethernet 5) USB That's not bad for 100-150 Euros although I wish there was a PCI slot. I hope it gets produced as the Amiga would benefit from all kinds of high spec hardware. Last edited by matthey; 26 April 2015 at 21:00. |
||
25 April 2015, 04:39 | #55 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ
Posts: 741
|
You keep forgetting that a real Mac does not run at all with an 060. FUSION works with the 060 after patching the crap out of the OS and disabling superscaler, and some applications also need the instruction cache off or they will crash. So, the 060 is severely crippled, and thus it should not be surprising that it is a lot slower than 33MHz 040 setup... but hey, what would I know.
People have seen what the Apollo core does on a smaller FPGA with a slower memory interface. You would be rather foolish to be believe that substantially better performance on the Replay is far off. |
25 April 2015, 05:16 | #56 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,284
|
Quote:
The Apollo/Phoenix CPU core has a deeper pipeline, a more parallel advanced design and is highly optimized for the FPGA it is in. The TG68 would need major changes to achieve 68060@50MHz performance. A more advanced design with FPU and MMU may not fit with a chipset. Realistically, this level of performance is unlikely for years while the 68060 daughter board could be out in 6 months or less. |
|
25 April 2015, 12:10 | #57 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 104
|
Anyway, just need to know when the Reply and the 060 board is out in the wild. Thinking strongly about buying both.
Is what yaqube was saying in another thread on here still the case? "The Replay board is able to host Minimig AGA core (which can be switched into OCS/ECS compatibility modes) and allows all AGA stuff to work. This core comes with a lot of additional goodies: 8MB of FAST RAM, 1.5MB of SLOW RAM, 48MB of extra CHIP RAM, support for 2MB ROMs, 24-bit AHI sound, Picasso96 compatible RTG board capable of 1920x1080 resolution and full colour display (although not at the same time). The Replay board can be easily expanded with different sorts of daughterboards. For example the one which I have made has a real 68060 CPU running at 106MHz, 128MB of local SDRAM, High Speed USB host controller, Fast Ethernet controller, RTC, micro SD card socket, TOSLINK optical audio output." |
25 April 2015, 13:30 | #58 | |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2014
Location: inside the emulator
Posts: 377
|
Quote:
One can't separate the logic latency from the clock rate. |
|
25 April 2015, 18:45 | #59 | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ
Posts: 741
|
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by JimDrew; 25 April 2015 at 18:55. |
||
25 April 2015, 18:48 | #60 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ
Posts: 741
|
If you have a base clock of 50MHz and change that base clock to 250MHz, you would see a 5x speed increase, no? Faster part = faster speed.
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Minimig 060 AGA core on FPGA-Arcade | Amiga1992 | Retrogaming General Discussion | 47 | 01 January 2016 01:25 |
fpga for ecs -> aga | turrican3 | support.Hardware | 17 | 14 August 2013 00:09 |
Which FPGA Implementation of Amiga are you looking forward too? | digiflip | Amiga scene | 44 | 05 June 2011 23:22 |
Which FPGA Implementation of Amiga do you think has the best chance? | digiflip | Amiga scene | 4 | 29 May 2011 08:31 |
Best Amiga E implementation | Madcrow | Coders. General | 1 | 25 June 2008 00:54 |
|
|