08 April 2020, 10:27 | #1121 | |
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https://books.google.de/books?id=RS8...page&q&f=false It is quite amazing, that some engineers stayed at commodore at all... |
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08 April 2020, 20:28 | #1122 | |
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This good old graph shows the profitable years after the launch of the A500 in '87 https://dfarq.homeip.net/wp-content/...and_profit.png until there was another dip in 1990 but then some more profit 1991-92. So they were at least not "in the red" during the years before AGA was launched. |
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08 April 2020, 20:36 | #1123 |
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Here we are, The Commodore Amiga Ranger. Amiga 1000 technology in a tower, complete with the Zorro I cards. They're like Zorro II but square instead of rectangle. I bet you'll get angry and deny that they're square too. Funny looking imagination I have, that my imagination appears known to other people before it's known to me, that it's solid and they pick it up and touch it! Am I a green lantern? There is a lot wrong with your post, because you don't understand simple things explained to you. I told you plainly that the point of slowram is to wire agnes for 1mb address space, so they could later make 1mb chipram agnes. It's a staggered upgrade, this is common practice in all kinds of electronics. The rest of your post is no better and not worth my time. |
08 April 2020, 23:33 | #1124 |
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@Kyle
Just because you put something upright, doesn't make it a tower... as your picture shows: the boards won't even fit in the case next to it. what is actually on these boards I can't tell. That the people were working at an Amiga with Zorro-Bus expansion is no secret - actually it is even mentioned in the interview I linked. But AGAIN (how often do I have to repeat until you start listening?): THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT. We were talking about the so called "ranger chipset" - not a case or a motherboard. It is not important if this is the real project name from back in the 80s, of if Jay Miner called it that or not. It is the name that now refers to the last Amiga chipset revision planed and prototyped by Jay Miner before he left Commodore. As pointed out, it is very likely that what we now know as ECS is a cut down version of the chips Miner planned. The UHRES register is a hint. Last edited by Gorf; 11 April 2020 at 19:43. |
10 April 2020, 02:47 | #1125 | |||
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i.e, it's existence can only be taken on faith. Quote:
You should really stop trying to duct tape myths, rumours and speculations together in the hopes of creating a history, especially when it's incompatible with hard evidence, and contradicts your previous statements. Last edited by Kyle_Human; 10 April 2020 at 02:54. |
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10 April 2020, 12:28 | #1126 |
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The logo it clearly unreadable.
No clue if this case is from Los Gatos or elsewhere. Is ist obviously some experiment. The boards are for testing. The case is just some available parts glued together. There seems to be no connection between the boards an the case - these are obviously two different projects. Here are some more pictures: https://www.bigbookofamigahardware.c...t.aspx?id=2006 The case ist probably not meant to stand upright - see the power button and the wooden feet on the plexiglass. So it is simply a Desktop. Nowhere on the case or on the board it says "Ranger" ... Yes: for the Ranger chipset, we have only the word of several people, including Jay Miner. If there is some physical evidence on the found boards, I can’t tell. Did someone actually analyze these boards? But again: it is totally unclear if theses boards and these parts have anything to do with the next generation chipset. I imagine there where quite a lot of testing boards and provisional cases standing around in Los Gatos and in Westchester. Please finally read the UHRES thread. There you can see why ECS ist not just a straight forward gradual upgrade... And again: I said after a certain point Commodore was missing SOME documentation - Paula being one of them. That still holds true. You brought no evidence whatsoever, that the ranger chipset never existed. You brought not a single argument that contradicts my points. All you brought is a picture of testing boards, someone believes it might have something to do with "Ranger". Last edited by Gorf; 10 April 2020 at 12:48. |
10 April 2020, 12:43 | #1127 | ||||
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https://www.bigbookofamigahardware.c...t.aspx?id=2006 Selectively picking the one picture where someone put in in vertical orientation and claiming that it's a tower... well... Quote:
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Anyway, Happy Easter everyone. |
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10 April 2020, 16:51 | #1128 | ||
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You say that and then link to the full photoset where you can read the logo clearly in high resolution. You're a very unserious person.
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Paula's approach to audio is all fixed purpose hardware. Need twice as many voices, you need twice as much hardware. By the time four voices became a constraint DSPs were out and could do everything in software and a stereo dac. The only thing we can conclude from Paula's stagnation is that Commodore engineers saw where the future was. Last edited by Kyle_Human; 10 April 2020 at 17:11. |
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10 April 2020, 18:22 | #1129 | |||||
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in this case I am: There is a logo. No clue if this is just a sticker or something from back than. But that does not matter at all, since this logo provides no proof of origin, no proof of that it is meant to be own a vertical case, and of course no proof, that this case has anything to do with the so called "Ranger". Quote:
But being developed as a game console for the two biggest video-game markets (Nordamerica and Japan) it makes sense to integrate that part. (Europe was more or less non existent an a market for video games in the early 80s...) Quote:
Even to Toni Wilen some of the inner workongs of Paule stayed a mystery... You can call it a myth if you insist, but it was told by several insiders in the 90s. The circumstances collaborate that story. Until someone publishes the schematics of Paule I consider them lost. Quote:
2) more voices can be mixed in hardware - so you do not need twice as much logic, but only about 20-30% more. 3) Paula was not even changed to support off the shelf hd-floppy-drives. Instead a more complicated and expensive way was chosen, to modify the drives.. Quote:
Let me guess: they were told about the future by the Easter Bunny! Really: please stop that nonsense Last edited by Gorf; 10 April 2020 at 20:41. |
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10 April 2020, 19:03 | #1130 | ||
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And NTSC/PAL was usually done by having two separate chip revisions - mostly quite a bit later if someone had decided that the European market was worth it. See again NES or C64. The standards are reasonably close to do this without too much effort. Quote:
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11 April 2020, 14:05 | #1131 | |||
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A basic and necessary capability for a successful technology company is to know about upcoming technology in the fields they operate in. Digital Audio had been done with DSPs for a few years already and was getting cheaper all the time. It was an established trend that was coming down in price. Quote:
Do you think improving paula for Time Division Multiplexing would've been cost competitive with DSP? (16bit sampling, "at least" 8 channels per hazydave). Bare in mind this was when the concerns of Amiga hardware people was trying to transition out of proprietary designs and hardware banging and onto standards like RTG. I firmly believe that the reason Commodore never released an upgraded paula is that it was still good enough for low end systems, but wasn't worth trying to improve to compete with DSP audio and off the shelf superio solutions. In other words, Paula was eventually going to wind up vestigial part only kept around for backwards compatibility. |
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11 April 2020, 15:02 | #1132 | ||||||
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Good for him.
So go on an ask your dad. He will tell you the same. Quote:
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The last real innovation made by commodore was the VIC-II chip in 1982... so one could argue if they were even a technology company after that... Quote:
Thats exactly what Lisa does, so it could have been easily implemented... To handle the data, you could: a) double the audio-part in Paula - no dramatic increase, and the resulting chip in 1.5 mu would still be smaller than the original Paula. b) double the internal clock to multiplex data handling. c) do both ... and end up with 16 channels and proper support of hd-floppies. Quote:
and that was only the case, because Commodore failed to innovate and continuously upgrade the chips and the Amiga line of computers. The custom chips where not harder to upgrade than any of the PC graphics we could see during that time. In fact some of the (planar) cga and text-modes are totally incompatible with (chunky) vga, but still supported by the gfx-cards ... Quote:
Last edited by Gorf; 11 April 2020 at 16:18. |
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11 April 2020, 15:33 | #1133 | |
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Games consoles were not the sole domain that gaming happened in. But that should be obvious to anyone on an Amiga forum |
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11 April 2020, 16:12 | #1134 | |||
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It had no impact on game consoles, because they where not as big in Europe to begin with. The "micros" crashed a little bit later. Acorns "electron" failed and the company sold itself to Olivetti in 85. Sir Sinclair sold all computer related stuff to Amstrad in 86. Quote:
The original investors of Amiga startup (Hi Toro), wanted a video console - so targeting the main markets (north America and Japan) was the reasonable thing to do - and so the integration of NTSC logic in the gfx chip makes also sense. (from that early point of view) And yes I am glad they changed it later and I love the Amiga primarily as a computer platform and only secondarily a gaming platform... but integrating NTSC logic at that point of time was no "crazy" decision - as already pointed out: most other game consoles did it. |
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11 April 2020, 16:33 | #1135 | |
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out, which is a wholly natural thing ina an extremely competitive and saturated market. Bu the micros themselves were going on strong - very strong - until their later natural & unavoidable death by PC. Also, you seem to be equating videogames with consoles. It's an American thing |
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11 April 2020, 17:41 | #1136 | |||
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with that logic you could also argue there was no video game crash in USA, because consoles and games did sell strong before and after ... Quote:
I was just explaining the motivation, for integrating the NTSC logic into the gfx-chip, from the point of view of an American startup targeting the video console market in the first half of the 80s... BTW: Is it really so hard to follow the logic of an argument? And is really so hard so make counter arguments, without making personal accusations? |
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11 April 2020, 18:04 | #1137 | ||||
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Admittedly this angle has little to do with A1200 so I won't pursue it further, suffice to say that chronic underestimation of microcomputers in modern internet conversations is one of my pet peeves, which is why I butted in here. Quote:
Ok? Last edited by dreadnought; 11 April 2020 at 18:09. |
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11 April 2020, 18:24 | #1138 | ||||||
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The growing disillusionment caused the market for cheap home computers to crash in 1985. https://www.historyextra.com/period/...computer-boom/ Quote:
That is a very unfair thing to do in a discussion. My sentence before that was: "But being developed as a game console for the two biggest video-game markets" I was clearly talking about video-game-consoles and therefore "video games" means games for that kind of consoles - as opposed to "computer games". Quote:
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you mixed up my explanation done from a certain point of view in an argument (here from Hi Toros point of view), with my personal views. Quote:
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29 April 2020, 13:59 | #1139 | |
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How could all those good games come from the UK in 1984/1985 if people would have just started with video games back then? The UK was one of the strong holds of intelligent and creative video games, back then. One, two years after the great Console crash in 1982. It is true, that Japanese style consoles were less in use (but present), since most kids interested in such things had a Commodore Amiga or (to a lesser extend) an Amiga, when the NES and SNES became popular. At least in Germany, which was one of the Amiga strongholds (Commodore Frankfurt, phase5, IndividualComputers, Haage&Partner, etc.). But the NES was released in 1985 in the US and in 1986 in Europe. So, this already was another generation of video games. |
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29 April 2020, 14:09 | #1140 | |||||
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and it was not really a thing... Quote:
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I was talking about "consoles" as opposed to computers. "Videogames" for consoles as opposed to computer games for computers... I tried to explain why HiToro would target the NTSC market first and wound not care much about PAL compatibility, while designing a game console! Quote:
no games for video consoles came from the UK back then.. Quote:
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