Where does the future of Amiga lie?

Glen M · 27 November 2018, 17:31

This is something that I've given a fair bit of thought lately and having been asked in another thread what defines Amiga its brought it back to the front of my mind. So rather than go off on a ramble on another thread I thought I'd start my own so we can discuss this.

As to what defines Amiga and in fact what defines any platform I believe that the very definition of a platform has come full circle from hardware to software. By that I mean in the 90s hardware defined the platform. The Amiga was defined by its chipset. The apple was defined by its chipset and the PC was defined by intel/IBM. Each console was defined by its bespoke hardware design.

Today however its more about the software as all hardware under the hood of the modern computer (IBM or Apple) is essentially the same but these machines are defined by the OS they run. Yes OK there will be slight differences in there but in essence they are x64 3rd party architecture. Same can be said for the PS4 / Xbox One to an extent.

A problem with Amiga is that the hardware got stuck with the chipset and I personally have come to the conclusion that too many people hold onto that (I have done so before and I still perfer to use the classic hardware rather than emulation) but if you follow the logical route the platform would of taken then you have to admit that its very likely that any 90s/00s amiga most likely would of moved away from the chipset and by that I mean totally away from the concept of a bespoke chipset to off the shelf 3rd party parts be that PPC then eventually x86/x64 or straight to intel. I also imagine the wedge computer would of gone in favor of a desktop.

If Amiga had survived any modern Amiga would most likely be running an x64 chipset with PCI-E slots and sata drives etc. So in theory a modern Amiga would simply be the operating system and the software that runs within. Heck it'd probably be bundled with UAE to run old 68k software.

So where am I going with this, honestly I'm not sure, but perhaps what the community needs to do is get more behind the MorphOS / AROS type solutions that essentially are a modern workbench on modern(ish) hardware and perhaps a version of what a moderm Amiga would have looked like.

Would this line of thinking be a reason as to why the so call modern Amiga type hardware X1000 (or whatever its called) didn't really work. People sticking with the concept that hardware defines a platform when in reality its actually software?

Could it be argued that Friend is the ultimate definition of this as it seems to move totally away from hardware into a cloud environment? (actually I'm not sure about this, I don't know much about friend).

Hopefully someone understands what I'm getting at...... anyone?

boatofcar · 27 November 2018, 18:21

There is no possible way any modern Amiga in an alternate future world would still be bundled with UAE. It would be like if modern Macs came bundled with a 68k emulator. Profitable companies aren't interested in supporting 30 year old software.

The X1000 failed because it had no discernable purpose other than for wealthy hobbyists and the hardest of hardcore Amiga believers.

Retro-Nerd · 27 November 2018, 18:24

The future lies in perfect 68x emulators and FPGA machines. Everthing else is a niche in a niche (so called Next Gen stuff).

Samurai_Crow · 27 November 2018, 18:44

The future of AROS' Amiga future is Dr. Michal Schultz and his work on the RasPi 2 and 3. He's getting it to work in big-endian mode and using the same binary blobs that the Linux drivers are using. Of course the SMP features are getting back-ported from the x86-64, potentially beating Hyperion to the punch. Also, a 68k compatibility JIT will become possible as well, bringing AROS up to par with MorphOS' Trance and AmigaOS 4.x's Petunia.

Regarding the AmigaOne series, the X1000 is dual-core and the X5000 is available as dual- and quad-core versions but unlike the X1000, the X5000 lacks AltiVec. For what these cost the cause is lost. PPC is not the answer. Even the AmigaOne X1200, though beefy for its price, will still require everyone to abandon traditional FPU in favor of a stream processor (SPE). What a hassle!

Regarding the chipset, FPGA chips provide enough compatibility anyway. I think a completed SAGA core running on a PCI card will give many of the new generation of Amigas what they need. We need not lose chipset support when moving to new hardware.

There's insufficient support for modern graphics cards on MorphOS and AmigaOS 4.1 is struggling to catch up to the likes of Linux. Getting a modern GPU onto new generation Amiga was a hasty decision and will not attain XBox One X performance for the same price point.

nexus · 27 November 2018, 19:06

PPC is more the answer than these FPGA's its faster and cheaper and has a ton of software
if we could only get the faster power stuff from IBM that be great
FPGA is not the answer unless you are trying to emulate old hardware
you dont use FPGA as a CPU in a NEXT-GEN computer its ok for old stuff not NEW

Retro-Nerd · 27 November 2018, 19:51

Of course FPGA for recreating (NOT emulating) real classic hardware. I can't imaginge more than 50-100 hardcore NexGen freaks using hardware like X1000 or X5000. This isn't any future at all.

nexus · 27 November 2018, 19:56

FPGA doing real classic hardware is hardware emulation
why do people not get this its not even a debate
and its not the future of amiga at all
REAL ASIC is

Retro-Nerd · 27 November 2018, 19:59

But "hardware emulation" is far from being software emulation. You probably know that. And hardware like the Super NT (SNES FPGA) has proven that it can be nearly 100% compatible with all hardware extensions/cartidges. So, yes. This can and will be the future at some point. But for now most of the original hardware is still running.

nexus · 27 November 2018, 20:03

you are talking about old hardware that is not future of amiga
you keep going that route amiga be dead soon as we are
future of amiga lies in those who never were around when the amiga came out
messing wih expensive slow FPGA is not gonna keep it alive
this is more of a life support system just for old timers

Retro-Nerd · 27 November 2018, 20:05

For me everthing else than 68xxx isn't Amiga. But i guess that's a point NextGen fans like to ignore. It's something new. But no Amiga. Oh well. How many times we already had this pointless discussion anyway.

nexus · 27 November 2018, 20:10

cause people say things like what you said
68k did not make amiga it was just a cpu
many things make amiga not just a cpu
people need to get over 68K for future amiga
mac users got over it
i dont see mac users saying its not a mac just cause its not 68k or PPC anymore

Retro-Nerd · 27 November 2018, 20:13

Dude. It's very simple. The userbase of classic hardware/classic hardware emulator/FPA is probably 95%, NextGen 5%. So, the Amiga future lies in the past. This isn't rocket science. It's a retro computing hobby. Nothing else. The rest is special interest = a niche in a niche. Hardly a "Amiga" future.

nexus · 27 November 2018, 20:15

you are pulling numbers with 0 proof
and just cause you see it that way doesnt mean everyone does

Retro-Nerd · 27 November 2018, 20:18

It don't need to pull anything. Because i'm realistic enough about it. It's a Retro Computing hobby. Get over it. The rest is just a gadget for some people who wanted something new.

nexus · 27 November 2018, 20:18

guy seriously you are just making crap up with no evidence

Retro-Nerd · 27 November 2018, 20:22

What evidence? That 95% of all commerical recreated Amiga hardware, homebrew hardware, expansions etc. is for classic Amigas? That most of all Amiga sites, blogs or whatever are about classic Amiga hardware. That most of the newer created Amiga games target the classic hardware?

Dunny · 27 November 2018, 20:36

No, Retro-Nerd is right. The Amiga is done, relegated to the past. It won't come back, not with AROS, not with Vampire, not with PPC. It's gone. All that remains is emulation for classic software.

How much new software has been written for AROS, and how much is already-existing Linux software that's been ported over from open-source?

Why would anyone use AROS rather then Linux? Why would any large amount of people use AROS instead of Windows? Why would MS abandon their flagship OS and create Word for it? Or Excel? Would Rockstar Games release Red Dead Redemption 2 for it? or GTA V? Valve are supporting Linux these days but they don't seem to have much of a roadmap for AROS.

Amiga is now a hobby and a retro-experience. We love it, but it will never come back - not ever. Not on x86, not on PPC nor on 68k.

nexus · 27 November 2018, 20:37

what does that have to do with amigas future as a modern computer
again it may be done for you two its not for me
i dont give up that easy
in 10-20 whatever years this world will change and many new possibilities of keeping amiga alive as a daily driver are possible
but in your world its already dead thats just sad

Retro-Nerd · 27 November 2018, 20:39

Quote:

what does that have to do with amigas future as a modern computer

Everything. Because there is no future for Amiga as a modern computer. Well, not in a concept for a big userbase.

boatofcar · 27 November 2018, 20:40

How do you see Amiga's future as a modern computer, nexus? Serious question.

27 November 2018, 17:31	#1
Glen M Registered User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Belfast Posts: 750	Where does the future of Amiga lie? This is something that I've given a fair bit of thought lately and having been asked in another thread what defines Amiga its brought it back to the front of my mind. So rather than go off on a ramble on another thread I thought I'd start my own so we can discuss this. As to what defines Amiga and in fact what defines any platform I believe that the very definition of a platform has come full circle from hardware to software. By that I mean in the 90s hardware defined the platform. The Amiga was defined by its chipset. The apple was defined by its chipset and the PC was defined by intel/IBM. Each console was defined by its bespoke hardware design. Today however its more about the software as all hardware under the hood of the modern computer (IBM or Apple) is essentially the same but these machines are defined by the OS they run. Yes OK there will be slight differences in there but in essence they are x64 3rd party architecture. Same can be said for the PS4 / Xbox One to an extent. A problem with Amiga is that the hardware got stuck with the chipset and I personally have come to the conclusion that too many people hold onto that (I have done so before and I still perfer to use the classic hardware rather than emulation) but if you follow the logical route the platform would of taken then you have to admit that its very likely that any 90s/00s amiga most likely would of moved away from the chipset and by that I mean totally away from the concept of a bespoke chipset to off the shelf 3rd party parts be that PPC then eventually x86/x64 or straight to intel. I also imagine the wedge computer would of gone in favor of a desktop. If Amiga had survived any modern Amiga would most likely be running an x64 chipset with PCI-E slots and sata drives etc. So in theory a modern Amiga would simply be the operating system and the software that runs within. Heck it'd probably be bundled with UAE to run old 68k software. So where am I going with this, honestly I'm not sure, but perhaps what the community needs to do is get more behind the MorphOS / AROS type solutions that essentially are a modern workbench on modern(ish) hardware and perhaps a version of what a moderm Amiga would have looked like. Would this line of thinking be a reason as to why the so call modern Amiga type hardware X1000 (or whatever its called) didn't really work. People sticking with the concept that hardware defines a platform when in reality its actually software? Could it be argued that Friend is the ultimate definition of this as it seems to move totally away from hardware into a cloud environment? (actually I'm not sure about this, I don't know much about friend). Hopefully someone understands what I'm getting at...... anyone?

27 November 2018, 19:06	#5
nexus Registered User Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: USA Posts: 728	PPC is more the answer than these FPGA's its faster and cheaper and has a ton of software if we could only get the faster power stuff from IBM that be great FPGA is not the answer unless you are trying to emulate old hardware you dont use FPGA as a CPU in a NEXT-GEN computer its ok for old stuff not NEW Last edited by nexus; 27 November 2018 at 19:19.

27 November 2018, 19:56	#7
nexus Registered User Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: USA Posts: 728	FPGA doing real classic hardware is hardware emulation why do people not get this its not even a debate and its not the future of amiga at all REAL ASIC is Last edited by nexus; 27 November 2018 at 20:02.

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27 November 2018, 18:21	#2
boatofcar Host of Amigos Podcast Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Hurricane, WV (USA) Posts: 95	There is no possible way any modern Amiga in an alternate future world would still be bundled with UAE. It would be like if modern Macs came bundled with a 68k emulator. Profitable companies aren't interested in supporting 30 year old software. The X1000 failed because it had no discernable purpose other than for wealthy hobbyists and the hardest of hardcore Amiga believers.

27 November 2018, 18:24	#3
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,435	The future lies in perfect 68x emulators and FPGA machines. Everthing else is a niche in a niche (so called Next Gen stuff).

27 November 2018, 18:44	#4
Samurai_Crow Total Chaos forever! Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Waterville, MN, USA Age: 49 Posts: 2,186	The future of AROS' Amiga future is Dr. Michal Schultz and his work on the RasPi 2 and 3. He's getting it to work in big-endian mode and using the same binary blobs that the Linux drivers are using. Of course the SMP features are getting back-ported from the x86-64, potentially beating Hyperion to the punch. Also, a 68k compatibility JIT will become possible as well, bringing AROS up to par with MorphOS' Trance and AmigaOS 4.x's Petunia. Regarding the AmigaOne series, the X1000 is dual-core and the X5000 is available as dual- and quad-core versions but unlike the X1000, the X5000 lacks AltiVec. For what these cost the cause is lost. PPC is not the answer. Even the AmigaOne X1200, though beefy for its price, will still require everyone to abandon traditional FPU in favor of a stream processor (SPE). What a hassle! Regarding the chipset, FPGA chips provide enough compatibility anyway. I think a completed SAGA core running on a PCI card will give many of the new generation of Amigas what they need. We need not lose chipset support when moving to new hardware. There's insufficient support for modern graphics cards on MorphOS and AmigaOS 4.1 is struggling to catch up to the likes of Linux. Getting a modern GPU onto new generation Amiga was a hasty decision and will not attain XBox One X performance for the same price point.

27 November 2018, 19:51	#6
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,435	Of course FPGA for recreating (NOT emulating) real classic hardware. I can't imaginge more than 50-100 hardcore NexGen freaks using hardware like X1000 or X5000. This isn't any future at all.

27 November 2018, 19:59	#8
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,435	But "hardware emulation" is far from being software emulation. You probably know that. And hardware like the Super NT (SNES FPGA) has proven that it can be nearly 100% compatible with all hardware extensions/cartidges. So, yes. This can and will be the future at some point. But for now most of the original hardware is still running.

27 November 2018, 20:03	#9
nexus Registered User Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: USA Posts: 728	you are talking about old hardware that is not future of amiga you keep going that route amiga be dead soon as we are future of amiga lies in those who never were around when the amiga came out messing wih expensive slow FPGA is not gonna keep it alive this is more of a life support system just for old timers

27 November 2018, 20:05	#10
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,435	For me everthing else than 68xxx isn't Amiga. But i guess that's a point NextGen fans like to ignore. It's something new. But no Amiga. Oh well. How many times we already had this pointless discussion anyway.

27 November 2018, 20:10	#11
nexus Registered User Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: USA Posts: 728	cause people say things like what you said 68k did not make amiga it was just a cpu many things make amiga not just a cpu people need to get over 68K for future amiga mac users got over it i dont see mac users saying its not a mac just cause its not 68k or PPC anymore

27 November 2018, 20:13	#12
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,435	Dude. It's very simple. The userbase of classic hardware/classic hardware emulator/FPA is probably 95%, NextGen 5%. So, the Amiga future lies in the past. This isn't rocket science. It's a retro computing hobby. Nothing else. The rest is special interest = a niche in a niche. Hardly a "Amiga" future.

27 November 2018, 20:15	#13
nexus Registered User Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: USA Posts: 728	you are pulling numbers with 0 proof and just cause you see it that way doesnt mean everyone does

27 November 2018, 20:18	#14
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,435	It don't need to pull anything. Because i'm realistic enough about it. It's a Retro Computing hobby. Get over it. The rest is just a gadget for some people who wanted something new.

27 November 2018, 20:22	#16
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,435	What evidence? That 95% of all commerical recreated Amiga hardware, homebrew hardware, expansions etc. is for classic Amigas? That most of all Amiga sites, blogs or whatever are about classic Amiga hardware. That most of the newer created Amiga games target the classic hardware?

27 November 2018, 20:36	#17
Dunny Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Scunthorpe/United Kingdom Posts: 1,973	No, Retro-Nerd is right. The Amiga is done, relegated to the past. It won't come back, not with AROS, not with Vampire, not with PPC. It's gone. All that remains is emulation for classic software. How much new software has been written for AROS, and how much is already-existing Linux software that's been ported over from open-source? Why would anyone use AROS rather then Linux? Why would any large amount of people use AROS instead of Windows? Why would MS abandon their flagship OS and create Word for it? Or Excel? Would Rockstar Games release Red Dead Redemption 2 for it? or GTA V? Valve are supporting Linux these days but they don't seem to have much of a roadmap for AROS. Amiga is now a hobby and a retro-experience. We love it, but it will never come back - not ever. Not on x86, not on PPC nor on 68k.

27 November 2018, 20:37	#18
nexus Registered User Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: USA Posts: 728	what does that have to do with amigas future as a modern computer again it may be done for you two its not for me i dont give up that easy in 10-20 whatever years this world will change and many new possibilities of keeping amiga alive as a daily driver are possible but in your world its already dead thats just sad

27 November 2018, 20:40	#20
boatofcar Host of Amigos Podcast Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Hurricane, WV (USA) Posts: 95	How do you see Amiga's future as a modern computer, nexus? Serious question.

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