Why the fuss about IPF images?

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by BarryB

No wonder only Denis is left on the EAB forum from all the criticism directed towards SPS regards the availability of IPF's and the 'agreement' not to make them available here despite the wide availability on sites outside of EAB, so until there is a mechanism in place to deal with sending IPF's to contributors they will always be criticised I think.

Come on BarryB; the SPS team haven't been on EAB in years:

... fiath
... IFW
... mr.vince

None of the above actually active though i.e. assisting with questions, queries or updates

They've never been getting hassled / any grief really from anyone on EAB about IPFs not being available in public.

...but as you've said yourself in this thread (and you are definitely not alone in this regard):

Originally Posted by BarryB

Yeah, out of literally hundreds and hundreds of games on various formats I've submitted over the years I only ever got back about 4 Amiga games in IPF format, the last stuff I submitted to their ftp was back in 2016!

Even the chap I gave my Kryoflux and Flippy drive to (quite a few months back) has given up submitting his dumps and gave me my Kryoflux and Flippy drive back as he didn't get anything back either.

...and from Mikerochip:

Originally Posted by Mikerochip

I know you're in France and such, but is there any way you can help me get my original games back??

I only loaned them to the project on the condition I'd get the back after the dumps were done.

I've been ignored now for more than a few years asking for their return. (They're in the UK)

If you read the threads under this project.SPS (was CAPS) section there are similar stories...

At the end of the day people have spent good money / time hunting down these rare games and then put in the effort to provide the SPS team with dumps (or even originals). The least they should get back is a reply / update, let alone anything else, which they haven't after years of chasing...

That stinks in my book

[mc68060]

@dlfrsilver:
Any idea why no Amiga games have been added to the official SPS database over at http://www.softpres.org/games for the last 10 years or so? The last 3000 entries seem to be C64 only.

[clenched]

I've got to hand it to the Captain. Despite the loss of his own collection, he remains hard at work on the preservation front. A lesser person might have just given up at that point. Also it's sometimes hard to distinguish his famous extended ADFs from an IPF and those are fine to ask for.

[DamienD]

Let's also take a look at some well known, game preservation projects:


MAME:
... available free on the internet to anyone.


TOSEC:
... available free on the internet to anyone.


SPS:
... all files only available to team members (who don't actually own all the originals themselves).
... individual files will only be given if you can jump through hoops to prove you have them. Also don't forget that it is becoming virtually impossible to get rare, original Amiga games that aren't damaged / modified these days.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by DamienD

Come on BarryB; the SPS team haven't been on EAB in years:

... fiath
... IFW
... mr.vince

None of the above actually active though i.e. assisting with questions, queries or updates

They've never been getting hassled / any grief really from anyone on EAB about IPFs not being available in public.

...but as you've said yourself in this thread (and you are definitely not alone in this regard):



...and from Mikerochip:


If you read the threads under this project.SPS (was CAPS) section there are similar stories...

At the end of the day people have spent good money / time hunting down these rare games and then put in the effort to provide the SPS team with dumps (or even originals). The least they should get back is a reply / update, let alone anything else, which they haven't after years of chasing...

That stinks in my book

About Mikerochip, i'm unfortunately unable to help on that matter. I don't know who has them.

About BarryB, i've been able to make some IPF out of his dumps, but many had errors due mostly to mould, the nasty illness of the floppies, going bad more and more thru the years.

About the games uploaded, in order to help, i need to know who exactly on EAB dumped and got nothing.

I'm going to try to sort something out of this.

But as i said, when i have been taking the preservation "job" (ahem), up to this day, here is what i discovered :

The work load has been completely underestimated. It's the case for my colleagues, but also my colleague in Japan.

For instance, it was cool to do at the beginning. But here's how things are with real life : It's in fact a full day job.

Right now, i'm doing a full time job for people in videoconference for super VIP people. When i'm back home, i spent most of my time dumping, checking and processing software in IPF for Amstrad CPC, Amiga, ST, (a bit PC) for multiple collectors.

I take care of 3-4 french collectors, 2 on CPC with huge collections, for which i process 200-250 softwares on tape and disks 2 times a month since 2014 !

On Amiga, that's a bit less because most games have been done. But i get some here and there.

I have sometimes dumps to check from Italian or German or english people, to who i give IPF.

Repeat for the Atari ST platform, or PC or spectrum.

I did a check lately of all the dumps i worked on since 2013 (even before being an SPS member).

I have more than 100gb of softwares done, and sometimes, i'm questioning about the fact that the guy who is paid at the french Paris national library (BNF) is not preserving a lot. This because he has no connexions with collectors or contributors. I have discovered that the BNF model is not either really made or pratical for this matter.

Sometimes i feel exhausted. For instance, i'm having currently a break from preservation until i get in holidays.

Honestly, the software industry should in fact pay for the huge workload the preservation is, but ha guess what, they have no money, only money for current projects.

With the work i'm doing i should in fact double my salary.

About MC68060 question, yes, the current goal for my SPS colleague is the C64 astronomical software library preservation.
But the why resume to not enough time, family and tireness/exhaustion from real life/day job/preservation workload.

About making official numbered IPFs, indeed, we should make a new batch. I did something like 1450 dumps for CPC disks, with around 1250 in IPF. Would be cool to give them official numbers. I did also around 960 original tape dumps of CPC originals..... but i guess this will come later.

[DamienD]

Denis; no one is questioning the time commitment you have undertaken over the years and are currently putting into this.

Also, it's definitely not up to you to sort out all the mess... where's the rest of the team??? You are in contact with them; ask them to have the decency to jump on EAB, assist and answer questions / queries from people who provided them with files / originals over the past few years.

Plus, as you said yourself, once people have received verified .IPFs back from the SPS team then it's totally up to the individual as to what they do with them. People clearly chose to share with the Amiga community hence why there are so many already public and available in TOSEC.

...what we are discussing here is changing the rules on EAB as they no longer make sense since everything public is available from a 3 second Google search.

I really don't see the issue with EAB now allowing these to be hosted here also?

[BarryB]

@Denis: Which of my dumps show damage due to mold? I've made literally hundreds of Amiga IPF's with disk-utilities where no errors show, same for C64 using the G64 format and nearly all my +3 dumps appear good when checking in Disk Image Manager

[DamienD]

Let's also look at this from a different perspective; current EAB rules and the affect / outcomes if broken...


Kickstart ROMs and Workbench files:
... possibly takes money away from companies like Cloanto that *own* the copyright and still sell the product.


Amiga Future and any other currently active software companies:
... possibly takes money away from companies that own the copyright and still sell the product.


SPS:
... as far as I can see there is no damage what-so-ever to the SPS team if files given to people who've submitted dumps / received .IPFs back and then decide to share with the Amiga community.
... people will still submit stuff to them for preservation purposes.
... they are not loosing any money as they don't own the copyright to anything they've preserved or charge for their tool / services.

[Minuous]

companies like Cloanto that *own* the copyright and still sell the product.

Well, that matter is currently before the courts. (From my readings of the various legal documents it seems Hyperion have a much stronger case.) I'm not saying there is no copyright on those - of course there is - but not necessarily to Cloanto.

Re. IPFs, I'd be in favour of an EAB policy change. If they have spent so much time/effort on preservation then it seems pointless not to distribute the results widely. The more hoops potential users have to jump through, the less likely they are to bother with the Amiga.

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by Minuous

Well, that matter is currently before the courts. (From my readings of the various legal documents it seems Hyperion have a much stronger case.) I'm not saying there is no copyright on those - of course there is - but not necessarily to Cloanto.

Hence why I said *own*... anyway, that's totally off topic in this thread Minuous.

[whiteb]

I thought the reason for not allowing IPF's to The Zone, was because a lot of them still fall under copyright, and we do not want this forum to fall the same way as The World of Spectrum and receiving a copyright case from IDSA.

[demolition]

Originally Posted by whiteb

I thought the reason for not allowing IPF's to The Zone, was because a lot of them still fall under copyright

And somehow cracked versions of the same games are not copyrighted? Does not compute..

[1time]

Originally Posted by DamienD

SPS:
... all files only available to team members (who don't actually own all the originals themselves).
... individual files will only be given if you can jump through hoops to prove you have them. Also don't forget that it is becoming virtually impossible to get rare, original Amiga games that aren't damaged / modified these days.

This is totally my point of view on this topic. If the .IPF team did not keep the files for themself, and sent the only IPF copy to the person that owned the original game. I could acctualy understand their point of view on the "copy" rules.

BUT if they keep it to themself, it is all some sort of hypocrisy.

[Dunny]

I know that a sample size of 1 is pretty poor, but if people have sent them disks for imaging and not gotten any form of reply (or their disks back) for years then they quite rightly deserve that criticism?

[mc68060]

Originally Posted by Dunny

I know that a sample size of 1 is pretty poor, but if people have sent them disks for imaging and not gotten any form of reply (or their disks back) for years then they quite rightly deserve that criticism?

Yeah, very bad style. Not answering at all when you keep games that aren't yours is not very professional IMHO.

[demolition]

Before sending them any floppies, one should always contact them to make sure that they are indeed still active and accepting disks and not just follow some instruction from a website that hasn't been updated in a while. I don't know if people already did that when they submitted these floppies, but if they have been told directly that they could send them disks and that they would be returned, then obviously one could expect that within some reasonable time frame. To ask the submitter to pay for the return shipment is also acceptable since these guys are doing this work without any pay.

Of course, real life can get in the way by means of new job situations, sickness, etc., but if they are still alive and able to use a keyboard, then at some point it would be nice to just write to people how the situation is so they don't just leave people in the dark.

[idrougge]

Another problem is that, as far as I understand, TOSEC prefers IPF files over ADF files when it comes to non-cracked games. But SPS prefers not to process any dumps, so TOSEC is stuck with virus-ridden cracks.

[BarryB]

WOS has a 'Distribution Denied' policy for their tape/disk downloads so they don't distribute anything that an author/company has expressley forbidden. I would expect the same restrictions for certain Amiga IPF's from the same authors/companies too, but have we now got to contact every author/company (if they are still around) to ask for distribution permission?

SPS specifically state NOT to send them ADF files as they won't contain all the data from the duplication process, so seeing as Amiga TOSEC is mostly ADF then that's why they won't process them.

[idrougge]

Read what I wrote once more.

[demolition]

Originally Posted by idrougge

Another problem is that, as far as I understand, TOSEC prefers IPF files over ADF files when it comes to non-cracked games.

It is not just a preference as 99% of all original games is impossible to dump into ADF files since the ADF format doesn't support the copy protection methods which most games have.

So for non-cracked games, your only options are IPF/HFE/raw or similar advanced formats and for cracked games ADF is perfect since cracked games are always plain DOS disks.

For some reason, TOSEC mainly deals with cracked games. You also see that in the C64 section as there is not many original versions of C64 games to be found in TOSEC.

The TOSEC guys had to put their focus somewhere and perhaps it was just easier to handle the cracked versions. Then some people started SPS to handle the original versions.