Was anyone else disappointed with the A1200?

[Avrovulcan]

Sorry for joining the discussion rather late.
I remember that apart from just wanting to add yet another Amiga to my collection I was sold on the uprated chipset. Unfortunately though, at the time, I seem to remember that actual software using the enhanced functions of the chipset was pretty much non-existant, most offerings being tweaked ports of existing titles.
I don't think it it was long after this that I remember seeing the likes of games such as X-Wing and Wing Commander on the PC that I finally decided to ditch the Amiga as a platform and get my first DX4 100 PC.
I remember at the time going to HMV, Virgin and the Electronics Boutique stores to find the amount of available titles slowly dwindling away to the point that the Amiga titles that actually were available only took up a couple of shelves.
It was sad moving to a different platform, feeling let down by Commodore, which was sad as if they had played things very differently the platform would have easily keep pace with the equivalent PC's. Even today.
A very sad waste of the technology.
So in short, disappointed with the hardware?? Not really, more disappointed with the way Commodore handled things and the lack of software. Unfortunately these two things probably go hand in hand.

Kind regards
Andy

[matt3k]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Just the opposite is true in my opinion:

Commodore was ONLY looking into short-term profits and had a total lack of a vision for the Amiga or any decent platform development.
They did NOT put enough effort into chipset development, they did NOT put enough resources in OS and software development.

Instead they focused only on selling a cheap gaming machine after the initial A1000 did not take of as expected.
Gould and Ali had absolutely no clue about computers in general and also no clue about the Amiga.
Sadly they weren't even good businessmen.

Good points management was very bad and short sighted, hence why they ran out of money and vendors hesitated to work with them

The Engineers were allowed to dream (probably because management didn't care) and were given creative freedom to a point for some period of time under Commodore. When management changed and the price cutting methodology became king for them, This is when AAA and other initiatives were dropped.

Management also missed big opportunities:
1. DSP processing - would have given the Toaster a terrific rendering platform in the very early 90's.
2. AAA - At least according to Dave Haney, it would have been revolutionary and would have given the Amiga a healthy lead once again.
3. Not selling the 3000D to other manufactures for rebranding. I might think this would be the biggest lost opportunity for them. They still had money back then and could have still made product.

That is just to name a few imho...

[matt3k]

Originally Posted by Avrovulcan

Sorry for joining the discussion rather late.
I remember that apart from just wanting to add yet another Amiga to my collection I was sold on the uprated chipset. Unfortunately though, at the time, I seem to remember that actual software using the enhanced functions of the chipset was pretty much non-existant, most offerings being tweaked ports of existing titles.
I don't think it it was long after this that I remember seeing the likes of games such as X-Wing and Wing Commander on the PC that I finally decided to ditch the Amiga as a platform and get my first DX4 100 PC.
I remember at the time going to HMV, Virgin and the Electronics Boutique stores to find the amount of available titles slowly dwindling away to the point that the Amiga titles that actually were available only took up a couple of shelves.
It was sad moving to a different platform, feeling let down by Commodore, which was sad as if they had played things very differently the platform would have easily keep pace with the equivalent PC's. Even today.
A very sad waste of the technology.
So in short, disappointed with the hardware?? Not really, more disappointed with the way Commodore handled things and the lack of software. Unfortunately these two things probably go hand in hand.

Kind regards
Andy

I remember those days, and sadly was true. Well said.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by matt3k

1. DSP processing - would have given the Toaster a terrific rendering platform in the very early 90's.

This would have been perfect in a A3000+

2. AAA - At least according to Dave Haney,

Who is that?

A combination of Hadley Davis and Dave Haynie?

it would have been revolutionary and would have given the Amiga a healthy lead once again.

But only if it would have hit market in 92 or earlier.

3. Not selling the 3000D to other manufactures for rebranding. I might think this would be the biggest lost opportunity for them. They still had money back then and could have still made product.

Yes. It was SUN asking for such a deal, not only once but twice ...
That way Commodore could have put a foot in the door of the workstation market.

But also the A3000 was little bit late in the game.
It would have been fantastic in 1988 and could have sold for $1000 more easily than ... but only two years later in 1990 the resolution and processing power was no longer workstation material ... the 68040 was already available in 1990.


That is the whole problem of Amiga at Commodore:
The chipset and the multitasking OS was years ahead in 1985 - but that advance was melting away every year.
In 1987 the A500 had absolutely no technical improvement over the A1000
Even the more expensive (too expensive) A2000 only got the Buster and some slots, but not even SCSI...

ECS (only a tiny update) was ready in 88 or earlier, but it took Commodore two years to ship it..

Jay Miner's Ranger Chipset was also ready in 87/88... but abandoned.

When AA was finally ready (too late and should have been AAA by than) management stalled it for 6 month....

All the advantage was gone and by 1992 Commodore's hardware had fallen behind from a technical point of view - only the AmigaOS was still better than DOS, Windows3 or MacOS... ironically most people owning a A500 never really used the Workbench or other system friendly software, but just booted directly into games.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by Gorf

ironically most people owning a A500 never really used the Workbench or other system friendly software, but just booted directly into games.

Exactly. I think it's really sad that most Amiga users never even got to experience 2.x/3.x.

[mcgeezer]

Was I disappointed in the A1200 back in the day.... remembering back yeah I think I was.

But today, the machine is a Power House (certainly compared to an OCS Amiga), the machine sits between a Megadrive and a SNES, but you have to take into account that AGA is backward compatible to ECS/OCS which was a double edged sword for Commodore.... it is paying dividends in 2019 for the community that wants to invest in the Amiga....basically buy an A1200.

But my main point is that the stock AGA has not nearly been tapped into yet as a gaming machine, it has huge potential and hopefully we're starting to see it with some of the productions coming through (Hypaborea/Reshoot-R series).

Good times are coming for Amiga fans, I feel it.

[sandruzzo]

@mcgeezer

Perfectly right. Aga can give us great opportunities to do a lot more, even on a stock machine. I know that even "simple" game can be made with hi-res.

[lesta_smsc]

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

@mcgeezer

Perfectly right. Aga can give us great opportunities to do a lot more, even on a stock machine. I know that even "simple" game can be made with hi-res.

Here's a thought for desire starting in 2020... conversion of the Amiga OCS/ECS games to AGA with updates graphics/sprites. A big project but the key would be working on stock machines!

[sandruzzo]

Originally Posted by lesta_smsc

Here's a thought for desire starting in 2020... conversion of the Amiga OCS/ECS games to AGA with updates graphics/sprites. A big project but the key would be working on stock machines!

Think About doing IK+ HD on AGA at high res! What a great game to remake!

[lesta_smsc]

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

Think About doing IK+ HD on AGA at high res! What a great game to remake!

Sorry I was merely suggesting the idea. K have no skills for this lol.

[sandruzzo]

Originally Posted by lesta_smsc

Sorry I was merely suggesting the idea. K have no skills for this lol.

Don't Worry, just to talk

[liquidsmoke]

not at all, i loved the a1200. then and now.

[swinkamor12]

Commodore banckrupt because for price of Amiga 1200 you can buy 386 SX with graphics faster than Amiga 4000.
Amiga 500 was better computer than pc all time up to october 1992 when production of Amiga 500 was stopped.
Amiga 1200 hardware was from the beginnig worse than pc.
I hate Amiga 1200. I sold it in 1996 and never miss it.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Instead they focused only on selling a cheap gaming machine after the initial A1000 did not take of as expected.

That is a total lie. The A2000 was released at the same time as the A500, and many expansions were produced for it including accelerator cards, hard drives, and high resolution video cards. In the UK they even introduced a dual floppy drive version in an effort to encourage purchasers to go for the better machine. The next model released was the A3000, which added a 32 bit bus, 25MHz 0303, SCSI controller and flicker fixer etc. on board. These were high-end machines to rival PCs, and priced accordingly.

They also gave the OS a major overhaul to make it more professional and to support future enhancements, ported Unix to the A3000 and produced the A3000T. At the same time they were working on an advanced chipset to meet the needs of professional users. This is all exactly the opposite of focusing on cheap gaming machines.

Unfortunately for Commodore all this effort was not paying off, and only the 'cheap gaming machine' was making sufficient sales to justify itself. Though sales were going up, revenue was flat, profits non-existent, and debts were not being paid off. The A500 was the only thing keeping Commodore afloat. If only they had realized from the start that selling to the low end was the best strategy, they might have made a lot more money and lasted longer.

Gould and Ali had absolutely no clue about computers in general and also no clue about the Amiga. Sadly they weren't even good businessmen.

You are right, but if Tramiel had been more reasonable Gould wouldn't have been forced to take the reins and bring in someone else to try to save the company.

OTOH, if Tramiel had stayed on maybe the Amiga would have been an altogether different machine, oriented only towards games as was originally intended or cut down like the ST. Or it might simply have been abandoned due to lack of interest. And we would all have moved on to PC clones never knowing what might have been...

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

But today, the machine is a Power House (certainly compared to an OCS Amiga), the machine sits between a Megadrive and a SNES

No way dude. The Megadrive's graphics hardware is far superior for games. The Amiga couldn't even dream of running a decent conversion of many MD games.

I'd argue the sound chip is better too, but that's personal preference

[Solo Kazuki]

All this discussion about "what if..." is omitting one thing: in mid 90s almost all computer platform dies in "vs PC" hardware war. Only Apple "survives", nowday it's PC clones, Macs and consoles, all other hardware platforms are just promiles of computer world.

So Amiga dies maybe few years too early, but sooner or later Amiga will share it with many other platforms.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by swinkamor12

Commodore banckrupt because for price of Amiga 1200 you can buy 386 SX with graphics faster than Amiga 4000.
Amiga 500 was better computer than pc all time up to october 1992 when production of Amiga 500 was stopped.
Amiga 1200 hardware was from the beginnig worse than pc.

In 1993 I got a special deal on some 386-SX clones and was able to sell them in my shop for the same price as an equivalent A1200 package. The clone had 2MB of RAM, standard VGA (with a poor quality screen) 16MHz CPU, 40MB hard drive (just like the A1200) Windows 3.0 and no sound card. It sucked.

I don't know what happened to any of them but I bet they didn't last long. Ironically, any that did survive would probably be collector's items today. Believe it or not retro PC enthusiasts are now yearning to relive a time when their machines were inadequate.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

That is a total lie.

please...

The A2000 was released at the same time as the A500, and many expansions were produced for it including accelerator cards, hard drives, and high resolution video cards.

way to expensive for what it did.
the A2000 was basically the same machine in a bigger box and some expansion slots - more than twice the price was not reasonable.

It lacked a build in SCSI controller, the video slot was in the wrong place, it did not even have the color composite out the A1000 had....

from 1980 to 1985 Commodore sold/released:

(the PET)
VIC20
C64
CBM-II
C16
Plus4
C128

and finally the Amiga

in the next 5 year period from 1985 to 1990 not a single update to the chipset followed only by ECS in 90...

No vision, no development, just selling what is there

In the UK they even introduced a dual floppy drive version in an effort to encourage purchasers to go for the better machine.

only in UK and only after the "checkmate" showed there is demand.
Too little, too late.

The next model released was the A3000, which added a 32 bit bus, 25MHz 0303, SCSI controller and flicker fixer etc. on board. These were high-end machines to rival PCs, and priced accordingly.

I love my A3000


but as stated before: it was late in the game for a workstation - should have been 88 not 90.
The flickerfixer is nice, but still way to low-res in 1990, where at least SVGA was expected ... sadly Commodore did not merge the Hedley-device and Amber...

They also gave the OS a major overhaul to make it more professional and to support future enhancements, ported Unix to the A3000 and produced the A3000T. At the same time they were working on an advanced chipset to meet the needs of professional users. This is all exactly the opposite of focusing on cheap gaming machines.

way too late and way too little

And to stupid to take SUNs offer ...

the big money was spend in useless PC development

Unfortunately for Commodore all this effort was not paying off, and only the 'cheap gaming machine' was making sufficient sales to justify itself. Though sales were going up, revenue was flat, profits non-existent, and debts were not being paid off. The A500 was the only thing keeping Commodore afloat. If only they had realized from the start that selling to the low end was the best strategy, they might have made a lot more money and lasted longer.

they did spend next to nothing in the development of the big-box amiga and the next generation chipset!

They where still profitable I am sure and the Commodore UK selling the "1500" much cheaper proves the high margin the A2000 had...

You are right, but if Tramiel had been more reasonable Gould wouldn't have been forced to take the reins and bring in someone else to try to save the company.

OTOH, if Tramiel had stayed on maybe the Amiga would have been an altogether different machine, oriented only towards games as was originally intended or cut down like the ST. Or it might simply have been abandoned due to lack of interest. And we would all have moved on to PC clones never knowing what might have been...

Yes ... that would be an other story ..

[redblade]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

In 1993 I got a special deal on some 386-SX clones and was able to sell them in my shop for the same price as an equivalent A1200 package. The clone had 2MB of RAM, standard VGA (with a poor quality screen) 16MHz CPU, 40MB hard drive (just like the A1200) Windows 3.0 and no sound card. It sucked.

Was windows 3.0 useable in 256 colour? I don't think that the A1200 Workbench would be useable with 256 colours either.

But was that 386SX easier to upgrade than the a1200?, replace SX chip with a DX chip instead of buying accelerator board, then having to buy RAM?? I read that some 386SX chips were surface mounted like the 68ec020.

But those are 2 good machines to compare as they are both 32bit, similar mhz speeds. The 386 had the advantage of cheaper 3.5" IDE Hard drives and VGA had been out for a few years so the programmers had experience with the chipset.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by redblade

But was that 386SX easier to upgrade than the a1200?, replace SX chip with a DX chip instead of buying accelerator board,

not going to work, since the SX had a 16bit data bus and the DX a 32bit wide.
You need a completely different mainboard and would probably take the leap to a 486 in this case

But those are 2 good machines to compare as they are both 32bit,

well, the SX is only 32bit internally ....