New Amiga motherboards from Jens

[kolla]

If I was to build an A1200 motherboard replacement, it would essencially be a break-out board for a tiny, but feature rich, FPGA based motherboard. It would then be a matter of having one motherboard for all Amiga models, with slightly different break-out board designs and connectors for A500, A600 and A1200 casings and keyboards. Heck, one could also do ones for CD32, and even A1000 too. New A1200 case molds seem likely now, the missing piece is a way to produce new Amiga keyboards. Damn, I'd love a new and fresh A1000 case + keyboard, with FPGA inside, hehe.

[snoopy77]

Originally Posted by kolla

If I was to build an A1200 motherboard replacement, it would essencially be a break-out board for a tiny, but feature rich, FPGA based motherboard.

My gut feel is FPGA could be a deal breaker for a big %, just guessing but I think it could be 30%-50% of people. Personally I would always want a Motorola cpu inside, even the 060 is stretching things for me.

Then again if a Vampire for A1200 comes out then people could potentially have that with this motherboard.

[clebin]

Originally Posted by dJOS

Yep this ...

if i'm shelling out 200-300 Euro's (which is $300-$450aud not inc shipping costs and a lot of money) I'd like to have built in flicker fixer + RTG and be able to use USB mice, Optical drives and networking gear with my a1200.

I get your point about the flicker-fixer but I'll wait and see how neat the solution is before making a judgement. If it plugs in neatly, uses the correct hole at the back of the machine and doesn't need shoe-horning into the case or involve lots of ribbon cable, then I don't think there'll be many complaints. It's probably not fair to compare it with the current Indivision AGA for example.

The graphics boards are 'options' but not 'optional' so hopefully they'll be designed with that in mind.

Chris

[d4rk3lf]

Hi there everyone!
I am a new member here, though I was lurking quite a while.

Big support to Jens, and the new product he is making. I am not so versatile in hardware, so I don't have any suggestion, and will just wait to see what he is preparing for us.

However,
These past few years, not once, my mind was crossed with a thought: Why nobody starts a Kickstarter campaign? I mean: A BIG CAMPAIGN.
The project would be about: a brand new Amiga, for today standards. Even it involves buying every license necessary, developing a complete new hardware, researching new technologies (with complete uniques, and creativity, as we all know that Amiga was before 30 years), even if it requires millions of dollars (or tens of millions)?
I know this may sounds childish, and too utopistic, but if David Braben succeed in creating campaign for Elite, and Chris for a Star Citizen, these are only games (though, a really good ones), but Amiga is something much bigger.
I am positive that there are enough of us, Amiga fans, all around the world that are willing to contribute a really large amount of money (of course, the campaign would need to be really aggressive (but not annoying), so almost everyone who ever used, or hear of Amiga could find about it)). Video presentations, facebook shares, every possible advertise.

Or, even better, a several campaigns, with a strictly defined parts, with a big goal: a brand new Amiga.

I apologize for this long (first) post.

Cheers to everyone.

[Predseda]

Why? Because you need a team of engineers. I think this is really too big task for one man.

[BigFan]

I mean: A BIG CAMPAIGN.
The project would be about: a brand new Amiga, for today standards. Even it involves buying every license necessary, developing a complete new hardware, researching new technologies (with complete uniques, and creativity, as we all know that Amiga was before 30 years), even if it requires millions of dollars (or tens of millions)?

Hope dies last.
Have you had a look at amiga related kickstarter campaigns lately? Is there any project raising a million dollar fund? or half a million?

You are talking about a market of less than 10k customers. You'll never reach any goal that enables research & development.

You have to come up with beef not with promises. Where is the prototype to convince anyone in backing this?

Sorry, but this is just a dream. Now you know why no one seriously starts on that.
And to have a piece of concept art or a silly rpi clone is junk that smells like rat. Where is the operating system that runs on your machine?

Too much to be done. Really.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

A brand new Amiga, for today standards.

Again: what for??
What is "today's standards'? Who will make any software for it?
What is the difference in having your main desktop say "amiga", Mac or PC if all you gonna do is login to Facebook and watch Netflix?

Not even one proponent of "the Amiga of today" has explained exactly what they want from it and what would make it stand out so much that it'd be a must have item worthy of the revolution the original caused.

The moment you put standard hardware in it the moment it becomes just a PC. And there are plenty of PCs out there already.

[shuttlepilot]

It's just a shame these new boards are lacking in flickerfixer and usb hardware - essential for today IMHO.

Good luck to Jens though, the new board is just not for me.

[d4rk3lf]

Nice points guys. Let me try to answer on some.

Let me dream a little bit more.

Originally Posted by Predseda

Why? Because you need a team of engineers. I think this is really too big task for one man.

Of course I didn't meant one man. One man can't lead the whole campaign. Several people (why not Jens and some of his co-workers) could lead it, some people would join later, and help (for example: with skills on audio video presentation to help them advertise the Kickstart project), maybe even some ingineers, that spent childhood with the Amiga.

Originally Posted by BigFan

Have you had a look at amiga related kickstarter campaigns lately? Is there any project raising a million dollar fund? or half a million?

Yes, but these campaigns are nowhere similar nor big as this would be. Ask yourself: how much time you would spent reading a campaign about new amiga, or campaign: some documentary about amiga?

Originally Posted by BigFan

You are talking about a market of less than 10k customers. You'll never reach any goal that enables research & development.

10k customers is an active customers. What about passive? What about those who never heard of amiga, but still would want to buy it?
Let's play with numbers, even it's not accurate at all: How many people bought Amiga 500 back day? Let's say 1 million (even I think the number it's higher). So, we have 1 million people out there from 30 to 50-60 years old, that could be customers. I don't know any person, any at all, that once had Amiga, and that it wouldn't be interested in project. If half of milion give 10$, that's 5 million dollars. And some would give more. Some would give even they didn't hear of Amiga.

Originally Posted by BigFan

You have to come up with beef not with promises. Where is the prototype to convince anyone in backing this?

Sure, that's the hardest part. The campaign would actually involve making of the prototype (backers pay that prototype is made). The idea with the prototype could be explained with video animation, interviews... for example.

Originally Posted by Akira

Again: what for??

If that was a question back then, when Amiga 1000 was invented, it would never been invented (sorry for my bad english).

Originally Posted by Akira

What is "today's standards'? Who will make any software for it?
What is the difference in having your main desktop say "amiga", Mac or PC if all you gonna do is login to Facebook and watch Netflix?

Actually, I'v meant: Above today standards.
If you want something to be sold, and repeat glorious past of the Amiga, that Amiga should rock, and heavy metal

Originally Posted by Akira

Not even one proponent of "the Amiga of today" has explained exactly what they want from it and what would make it stand out so much that it'd be a must have item worthy of the revolution the original caused.

Ok, let me try to be more concrete.
How about Amiga that can hardware support 8K-12K pixels videos? Some really cool editing programs (like Avid, Premiere, After Effects), that have a tons of hardware driven effects, and that production houses all over the world would buy it for the film effects. Or a 3D hardware and software, where ten's of million polygons works realtime in 3D software.
Throw in, several games (the company could create one game to promote it (similar as Nintendo wih super Mario), or/and pay few other company to create "never seen" games.
And there you have it.
I know it sounds too crazy. But it all already happen in the past.

P.S. Augmented reality could also be the answer. Playing a lot's of games, wearing a glasses. Strategy with soldiers making war on your home desk. Why not? Or, much crazier dream: some hologram invention.
I believe that everything is possible.

Originally Posted by Akira

The moment you put standard hardware in it the moment it becomes just a PC. And there are plenty of PCs out there already.

But of course! I am talking about brand new hardware all the time.

[BigFan]

Pardon me?

10k customers is an active customers. What about passive? What about those who never heard of amiga, but still would want to buy it?

10k in total. Less than 1000 active, interested, possible customers.

And please explain how those, who never heard of amiga, could get a hold of it. And why the heck would they STILL want to buy something they never heard of. This makes no sense at all.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by BigFan

And please explain how those, who never heard of amiga, could get a hold of it. And why the heck would they STILL want to buy something they never heard of. This makes no sense at all.

As I said, the primary focus would be on people that already had Amiga once. How many of them are still in the world? I think millions.
HOw everyone heard about Settlers online game? Even those born in 2005. Advertising.
Do you think that nobody, who never played Amiga, wouldn't give some money? I think not. I agreed that it wouldn't be much. But as the hype is rising, and rising, the more and more people would join. For the first "hype", past amiga owners would do the trick.

[demolition]

10k potential customers would be pushing it - it would probably be more like in the 100s or maybe 1k if it was actually useful. Such a low volume design is bound to be very expensive.

A PC today is almost what the Amiga would be if you extrapolate what it could do back then to present day. A PC has dedicated chips for graphics, audio, storage, network etc. and most of them uses DMA so as not to consume the main CPU. You could also compare modern gaming consoles with it since they are designed specifically for running games on a TV, much like the Amiga was.

3D modeling workstations exist already - they are often PC based using a bunch of GPUs for real-time rendering (with a networked render farm somewhere else). Same goes for video editing hardware.

Making a new computer design from scratch is a hopeless task which would require billions of USD in investments. The cheapest way would probably be to use some standard x86 hardware with a custom Linux on top, not unlike modern Macs which are based on BSD with a pretty GUI on top.

The essence here is the question - 'what defines the Amiga?'

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by demolition

The essence here is the question - 'what defines the Amiga?'

Charisma. I think we all somehow felt love the Amiga designers put in the product.
Yes, the Amiga was faster, and multitasking, because it has dedicated chips for that (similar with today's PC's, and consoles).
How about splitting it further? Graphic card with several dedicated chips for some unique actions?

Sorry, I am not engineer, and I am probably talking nonsense, but I am pretty sure that there is someone who could actually give some great answer on that. Or suggest some great improvement

@eveybody
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to be a opposite to everything you say, just trying to find some answers, and of course that it is possible that you are 100% correct, and I am 100% wrong

Cheers to all

[Tyball]

Originally Posted by demolition

The essence here is the question - 'what defines the Amiga?'

This is indeed the essence.

For me it is recapturing my personal memories of working with my Amiga (500) and playing games on it. And talking about the Amiga and the games with classmates. Soon after the A1200 came out, I moved on to PC and so I have little connection with Amiga after that. I've had a few tricked out Amigas and for me that doesn't recapture my memories and I sold them. I felt too close to emulation.

The new hardware by Jens meets (and exceeds) my needs/wants. I simply want a easy to use Amiga (500). I want the real deal or close to it. Emulation doesn't cut it. The new motherboard provides me with a hopefully more future proof system. And I will be happy to try it out.
And I think there are more people with similar needs.

I can imagine that people that have fond memories of a more advanced and tricked out Amiga or are even still using those today are not very satisfied by the new hardware. This is reflected in most of the opinions posted on this forum and on other sites as well. As a lot of members have more advanced Amigas.

[clebin]

@d4rk3lf

I'm sure you were hoping for a nicer welcome for your first post (welcome anyway!) but you have to realise that people are tired of hearing this stuff over and over. Your ambition only works if you're the entrepreneur or the developer who's going to make it happen. Are you going to remortgage your house, recruit staff, form a company, run the Kickstarter, etc etc? "Anything is possible" doesn't have the same ring if you want someone else to do it all for you.

Without wanting to be mean, there is a tangible product under development by someone who did all the hard graft to build his business, and shouldn't we be discussing that?

Chris

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

How about Amiga that can hardware support 8K-12K pixels videos? Some really cool editing programs (like Avid, Premiere, After Effects), that have a tons of hardware driven effects, and that production houses all over the world would buy it for the film effects. Or a 3D hardware and software, where ten's of million polygons works realtime in 3D software.
Throw in, several games (the company could create one game to promote it (similar as Nintendo wih super Mario), or/and pay few other company to create "never seen" games.
And there you have it.
I know it sounds too crazy. But it all already happen in the past.

And how would any of this be an Amiga? What is Amiga to you?
PS: you can do all those things with already available technology. Again, where is the innovation?

Let's all go back to discussing Jens' new motherboards and let's leave the fan fiiction fantasy for another thread.

[kolla]

I imagine Jens will eventually make an FPGA based CPU board on his own for Amiga Reloaded. But who knows what softcore he would use for such a board.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by clebin

@d4rk3lf

I'm sure you were hoping for a nicer welcome for your first post (welcome anyway!) but you have to realise that people are tired of hearing this stuff over and over.

Hey mate. No worries, I haven't felt it was not a nice welcome, neither I expect nice welcome, I am not sensitive that much. Thanks a lot for the welcome, anyway.

Yeah, I totally know what you're saying. It's like when I said to some kids programmers that they shouldn't build AAA game as their first game, but first try to make a PAC-MAN.
I haven't realized that this was discussed many times before, actually, I searched Kickstarter for a project like this, and haven't found it. That made me curious, that nobody have even tried something like that (even failed).

And you're correct. This is off topic, so I am stopping here, and will join the discussion of Jens product

Cheers mate,
Bobi

[demolition]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Charisma. I think we all somehow felt love the Amiga designers put in the product.
How about splitting it further? Graphic card with several dedicated chips for some unique actions?

Modern GPUs already have many cores already, some even >1000. They can be used for many different things, not just graphics, but also physics calculations or other stuff which can benefit from massive parallelism.

Computers are so extremely complex today compared to what they were back in the early 80s where they could build a discrete working prototype of an Amiga which would fit on a single table. Back then it was possible for one person to know the details of all parts of computer where today that would be impossible. I think that does make a big difference as today it requires the design to be more modular with standardized interfaces.

[NovaCoder]

Originally Posted by kolla

I imagine Jens will eventually make an FPGA based CPU board on his own for Amiga Reloaded. But who knows what softcore he would use for such a board.

Jens has already hinted that he will when the tech becomes cheap enough.

It's a no brainer really, why use a real 030 when you can use an FPGA?



What I want to know is if Jens is planning on making the CPU connection faster on this board? I know he experimented with faster CHIPRAM access with the first 1230 drivers but then stopped supporting it due to instability with certain motherboards. If he is designing the motherboard though he has a 'known quality' and so he could update the drivers for his ACA cards to speed up CHIPRAM access again

Also the CHIPRAM on the motherboards is faster so we *might* see some impressive speeds (relatively speaking of course)