Copy CF card file to ram:, insert other CF card, copy over?

Photon · 18 July 2009, 01:14

If I pull out and re-insert a cf card, nothing short of a power off will make it be recognized by the OS (3.1). Why is that?

Is there some command to "re-check" the ide adapter/"removable harddisk dh0"?

Or how do you copy a file from one CF card to another?

prowler · 18 July 2009, 01:31

Hi Photon,

Have you tried resetting Workbench after replacing the CF card?

Photon · 18 July 2009, 02:58

I'm not in Workbench. Preferably, I'd like to use Diskmaster or other file manager to copy stuff.

Just thought there was some handy CLI command for it

When this happens I've run the default WB startup, so loadwb starts Workbench. I mean, the system should be happy.

Hm. Made me think. As easy as adding the disk in mountlist and "mount dh0:"? But then both CF's would need to have identical layout?

And since it fails to boot if I reset after eject-insert, I think it just needs a reset or jumpstart or kick in the pants to make the system see it again?

ppill · 18 July 2009, 07:13

'diskchange cf0:' might do the trick (if the driver supports it).

adolescent · 18 July 2009, 07:34

Is the adapter on IDE or PCMCIA? IDE doesn't support hot swapping so that's probably out. PCMCIA should support diskchange as ppill mentions.

ppill · 18 July 2009, 20:32

Just checked on my A1200 setup (clean 3.1 install with just a couple of things added like KCON: and CF0: drivers etc.).

After re-insterting the adapter the drive icon just reappears. Just like that. Don't have to do anything.

Photon · 21 July 2009, 07:44

IDE here. Since I can't put a network card in it.

ppill · 21 July 2009, 08:55

That explains it. Missed you mentioning that's it IDE. I don't think it's safe to hot swap these cards but if you still wanna try a combination of unmount and a couple of mountlist would do the trick.

Photon · 21 July 2009, 16:46

You're the one who assumed PCMCIA

Anyway, *slap of forehead* silly me: buying a spare PCMCIA CF adapter would solve the copying of files atleast.

Still, I would like to be able to pull out the CF card, backup my sources or put an adf image on the card, and put it back in the Amiga without having to power off to continue! Surely that's a pretty common task for many...?

As long as you wait for all writes to finish, it's perfectly safe to pull out CF cards.

Anyway, I'll give your suggestion a try.

thomas · 21 July 2009, 17:09

Quote:

I would like to be able to pull out the CF card, backup my sources or put an adf image on the card, and put it back in the Amiga without having to power off to continue!

Try Ctrl-A-A.

Quote:

Surely that's a pretty common task for many...?

Not on IDE.

Photon · 21 July 2009, 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas

Try Ctrl-A-A.

I mentioned above that resetting is not enough, I guess you missed that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas

Not on IDE.

I've seen lots of mods where the IDE CF card is sticking out of the case for easy access.

So, only PCMCIA CF users use their CF card for transfers and copies files to/from them?

I doubt your veracity.

Jope · 21 July 2009, 18:53

Those mods aren't for hot swap.

If you buy a card bracket ide -> cf adapter, most shops claim in bold letters, that this will not make your ide connector support hot swap.

Photon · 21 July 2009, 19:38

Well, that's too bad. IDE has no support at all for hot swap then? Crap. Can some signals be patched in hardware, or mountlist set to removable media, or some such? Surely it should be a matter of 1) plugging it back in, all signals and voltages attached again, so 2) send it whatever signal or jolt is sent on power-on.

(Probably then it's the power-on signal that makes it responsive again? Could I just add a power switch for the adapter only? That would at least make it cold-swap, and then I'd see if the OS can be persuaded to "see" it again on card power-on...?)

Lockon · 21 July 2009, 20:50

Hotswaping IDE HDDs are holy grail of datacenter engineers for at least a decade. AFAIK, take any SAN system from i.e. HP, EMC, NetAPP or IBM and you'll find hotswap IDE drives. Catch is those drives have interface which takes care on both physical and logical mount/unmount operations. Exception of that practice might be some kind of IDE Zipdrive, if existing. In that case, there would be some kind of circuitry tasked for device init/pooling at regular intervals. Anyway, I'd restraint from mods like someone said....you might end up in blue smoke

Photon · 21 July 2009, 21:32

omg.

Was gonna type a detailed answer here, but what's the point when we have voodoo priests in the house? Dance 3 circles and throw some salt over your shoulder and your computer won't blow up.

Making the CF adapter powerless and pulling out the CF card is exactly the same as turning the Amiga off and pulling it out. Recognizing the card on insert was the first topic in this thread. It's not like the Amiga is constantly accessing it, like on servers. How is "hot-swap" done in hardware, if not with connector that have poweroff switches in them + software that handles the newly inserted hardware?

(I had a SCSI Zipdrive in Amiga and IDE zipdrive in my PC for transfers before I got a CF. Just a paranthesis.)

Anyway, I'll do some testing when I'm in the mood.

prowler · 21 July 2009, 21:58

Hi Photon,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photon

I've seen lots of mods where the IDE CF card is sticking out of the case for easy access.

I don't think this is done with hot-swapping in mind, but to avoid having to repeatedly break open the case to access the card and wearing out the threads which accept the case screws in the process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photon

So, only PCMCIA CF users use their CF card for transfers and copies files to/from them?

No, but they probably outnumber the IDE CD card users who do this, because no case mod is necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photon

Making the CF adapter powerless and pulling out the CF card is exactly the same as turning the Amiga off and pulling it out. Recognizing the card on insert was the first topic in this thread. It's not like the Amiga is constantly accessing it, like on servers. How is "hot-swap" done in hardware, if not with connector that have poweroff switches in them + software that handles the newly inserted hardware?

I reckon it would be worthwhile to experiment with this in mind, provided you are careful. I would recommend fitting supression capactors across the switches that you use to control the power to the CF adapter, for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photon

Anyway, I'll do some testing when I'm in the mood.

Good luck! And let us know the outcome.

Shadowfire · 21 July 2009, 22:05

Hot swap support requires hardware AND software support.

1. Hardware: Devices need to be "safely" removable and insertable while the power is on. (hardware designed for repeated insertion/removal, ground lines must be connected before power lines, which must be connected before signal lines, etc)
2. Hardware: Devices need to know when they have been inserted/removed. (Sometimes this is a limits switch, sometimes its as simple as trying to talk to the device to see if its there)
3. Software: Your OS needs to be able to receive messages about insertions/removals.
4. Software: Your OS/filing system must be able to cope with having the media yanked out from underneath it.

Your descriptions sounds like a failure at #4. There is no real support in the Amiga OS for yanking a hard disk off the system (aside from ASSIGN: dismount). While there are trackdisk device commands for determining diskchanges, AFAIK no Amiga filesystem except OFS uses them, since they were all written with "fixed" (i.e. nonremovable) hard disks in mind.

It is possible for an IDE controller to detect a missing unit (and therefore a hard disk removal), but I don't believe any existing device driver would do so - hence they would issue an error, because they can no longer contact the drive, instead of a diskchange notification. Furthermore, without support of it in any of the filesystems you would use (FFS, SFS, MSDOS), there isn't any reason for people to hack up the existing drivers and add it to them.

EDIT: I'm sure the ZIP drive software used SCSI-direct to talk directly to the ZIP drive to find out about disk insertions and removals, which is a different beast entirely than having the entire device suddenly removed.

18 July 2009, 01:14	#1
Photon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Eksjö / Sweden Posts: 5,602	Copy CF card file to ram:, insert other CF card, copy over? If I pull out and re-insert a cf card, nothing short of a power off will make it be recognized by the OS (3.1). Why is that? Is there some command to "re-check" the ide adapter/"removable harddisk dh0"? Or how do you copy a file from one CF card to another?

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18 July 2009, 01:31	#2
prowler Global Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Sidcup, England Posts: 10,300	Hi Photon, Have you tried resetting Workbench after replacing the CF card?

18 July 2009, 02:58	#3
Photon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Eksjö / Sweden Posts: 5,602	I'm not in Workbench. Preferably, I'd like to use Diskmaster or other file manager to copy stuff. Just thought there was some handy CLI command for it When this happens I've run the default WB startup, so loadwb starts Workbench. I mean, the system should be happy. Hm. Made me think. As easy as adding the disk in mountlist and "mount dh0:"? But then both CF's would need to have identical layout? And since it fails to boot if I reset after eject-insert, I think it just needs a reset or jumpstart or kick in the pants to make the system see it again?

18 July 2009, 07:13	#4
ppill CON: artist Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Poland Age: 43 Posts: 1,250	'diskchange cf0:' might do the trick (if the driver supports it).

18 July 2009, 07:34	#5
adolescent Powered by Motorola Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Age: 52 Posts: 1,065	Is the adapter on IDE or PCMCIA? IDE doesn't support hot swapping so that's probably out. PCMCIA should support diskchange as ppill mentions.

18 July 2009, 20:32	#6
ppill CON: artist Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Poland Age: 43 Posts: 1,250	Just checked on my A1200 setup (clean 3.1 install with just a couple of things added like KCON: and CF0: drivers etc.). After re-insterting the adapter the drive icon just reappears. Just like that. Don't have to do anything.

21 July 2009, 07:44	#7
Photon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Eksjö / Sweden Posts: 5,602	IDE here. Since I can't put a network card in it.

21 July 2009, 08:55	#8
ppill CON: artist Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Poland Age: 43 Posts: 1,250	That explains it. Missed you mentioning that's it IDE. I don't think it's safe to hot swap these cards but if you still wanna try a combination of unmount and a couple of mountlist would do the trick.

21 July 2009, 16:46	#9
Photon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Eksjö / Sweden Posts: 5,602	You're the one who assumed PCMCIA Anyway, slap of forehead silly me: buying a spare PCMCIA CF adapter would solve the copying of files atleast. Still, I would like to be able to pull out the CF card, backup my sources or put an adf image on the card, and put it back in the Amiga without having to power off to continue! Surely that's a pretty common task for many...? As long as you wait for all writes to finish, it's perfectly safe to pull out CF cards. Anyway, I'll give your suggestion a try.

21 July 2009, 18:53	#12
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,861	Those mods aren't for hot swap. If you buy a card bracket ide -> cf adapter, most shops claim in bold letters, that this will not make your ide connector support hot swap.

21 July 2009, 19:38	#13
Photon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Eksjö / Sweden Posts: 5,602	Well, that's too bad. IDE has no support at all for hot swap then? Crap. Can some signals be patched in hardware, or mountlist set to removable media, or some such? Surely it should be a matter of 1) plugging it back in, all signals and voltages attached again, so 2) send it whatever signal or jolt is sent on power-on. (Probably then it's the power-on signal that makes it responsive again? Could I just add a power switch for the adapter only? That would at least make it cold-swap, and then I'd see if the OS can be persuaded to "see" it again on card power-on...?)

21 July 2009, 20:50	#14
Lockon Air supremacy Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Rijeka Croatia Age: 49 Posts: 121	Hotswaping IDE HDDs are holy grail of datacenter engineers for at least a decade. AFAIK, take any SAN system from i.e. HP, EMC, NetAPP or IBM and you'll find hotswap IDE drives. Catch is those drives have interface which takes care on both physical and logical mount/unmount operations. Exception of that practice might be some kind of IDE Zipdrive, if existing. In that case, there would be some kind of circuitry tasked for device init/pooling at regular intervals. Anyway, I'd restraint from mods like someone said....you might end up in blue smoke

21 July 2009, 21:32	#15
Photon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Eksjö / Sweden Posts: 5,602	omg. Was gonna type a detailed answer here, but what's the point when we have voodoo priests in the house? Dance 3 circles and throw some salt over your shoulder and your computer won't blow up. Making the CF adapter powerless and pulling out the CF card is exactly the same as turning the Amiga off and pulling it out. Recognizing the card on insert was the first topic in this thread. It's not like the Amiga is constantly accessing it, like on servers. How is "hot-swap" done in hardware, if not with connector that have poweroff switches in them + software that handles the newly inserted hardware? (I had a SCSI Zipdrive in Amiga and IDE zipdrive in my PC for transfers before I got a CF. Just a paranthesis.) Anyway, I'll do some testing when I'm in the mood.

21 July 2009, 22:05	#17
Shadowfire Registered User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Connecticut USA Posts: 617	Hot swap support requires hardware AND software support. 1. Hardware: Devices need to be "safely" removable and insertable while the power is on. (hardware designed for repeated insertion/removal, ground lines must be connected before power lines, which must be connected before signal lines, etc) 2. Hardware: Devices need to know when they have been inserted/removed. (Sometimes this is a limits switch, sometimes its as simple as trying to talk to the device to see if its there) 3. Software: Your OS needs to be able to receive messages about insertions/removals. 4. Software: Your OS/filing system must be able to cope with having the media yanked out from underneath it. Your descriptions sounds like a failure at #4. There is no real support in the Amiga OS for yanking a hard disk off the system (aside from ASSIGN: dismount). While there are trackdisk device commands for determining diskchanges, AFAIK no Amiga filesystem except OFS uses them, since they were all written with "fixed" (i.e. nonremovable) hard disks in mind. It is possible for an IDE controller to detect a missing unit (and therefore a hard disk removal), but I don't believe any existing device driver would do so - hence they would issue an error, because they can no longer contact the drive, instead of a diskchange notification. Furthermore, without support of it in any of the filesystems you would use (FFS, SFS, MSDOS), there isn't any reason for people to hack up the existing drivers and add it to them. EDIT: I'm sure the ZIP drive software used SCSI-direct to talk directly to the ZIP drive to find out about disk insertions and removals, which is a different beast entirely than having the entire device suddenly removed.

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