Deli's guide to capture WinUAE output with Camtasia Studio

[Maccara]

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

Possibly, but I's rather do it the old-school way

Way to quote something out of context...

How about answering the original question in that message?

[NewDeli]

Originally Posted by Maccara

We're talking about capturing live footage

No, please remember the xvid / LAME mp3 encoding takes place manually, from avidemux. The captured output from Camstasia would be considered the source material in this second encoding operation.

Originally Posted by Maccara

So you like Camtasia because of its editing capabilities? Is that the reason then?

No, I'd rather say like it for both the codec and the editing capabilities. Even better, for the control it gives when in recording mode (choose the area to record, start the recording, swith winuae to full-screen and forget that it's on).

Originally Posted by Maccara

For low CPU load, you could use huffyuv. I'm pretty sure that loads the CPU even less (ab 5-10% cpu load for 720x576x32bpp @ 50fps here).

With all its variants, seems a bit too exotic for my taste.

Originally Posted by Maccara

Not a good idea to throw away frames, especially if you try to capture interlaced material which you intend to produce as such too.

Seems to be Toni's main argument against this method also. I don't understand what difference it would make to throw away frames early or later on, since the final production will bear an average of 25 or 30fps anyway.

Originally Posted by Maccara

Codec certainly is not a reason to use Camtasia. There are many free codecs too, you know, which you could use directly from winuae (as you could use the techsmith codecs too).

I have noticed that, all other things being equal, WinUAE looses some of its efficiency when set to recording video.
There is absolutely no way I can prove this and I speak solely on my behalf, but the capture duty seems to "distract" WinUAE from what it is doing best : Emulating the Amiga .

Look, I 'll admit that ultimately you would "win" on the technical ground because a lot of trial & error went into this tutorial and I stayed clear from the recommended method very early on.
The main idea is to cut out a few in-game movies out of WinUAE output to have something handy and quality-based, not to come up with the ultimate lossless encoding guide.

Also Camtasia usage can't really be split : It wouldn't make much sense to use the codec and not the editing capabilities, same the other way round (again, the editor component won't accept anything peculiar on its timeline, and anyway once you have produced your video "in a shareable format" you're done with it).

I would appreciate if we could compare the movies (in smoothness, overall size, clarity of the picture) produced with both methods instead of continuing this discussion as from this point, I don't feel I could back up further arguments the same way you would do it.
May be then, we would be allowed to take the uploads to EAB file server for people to "vote" for their preferred method.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

I would appreciate if we could compare the movies (in smoothness, overall size, clarity of the picture) produced with both methods instead of continuing this discussion as from this point, I don't feel I could back up further arguments the same way you would do it.

Okay, your method produces 25 MB files for about 1 minute. Grab the 'Amiga Longplay [424] Goblins 3.mp4' from Recorded Amiga Games. 77.5 MB for 2 hours and 47 minutes with sound. Your videos have the slight jerkiness that THB mentioned, while the other one is smooth.

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

May be then, we would be allowed to take the uploads to EAB file server for people to "vote" for their preferred method.

Guess you could upload your ones if you want to, but the ones produced with the RAG guide (which I would really recommend) can be seen on their site. Still not sure if your 25 MB for a one minute video is the final result, because a 40 minute take would eat up 1 GB of space then.

[skateblind]

Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid

Okay, your method produces 25 MB files for about 1 minute. Grab the 'Amiga Longplay [424] Goblins 3.mp4' from Recorded Amiga Games. 77.5 MB for 2 hours and 47 minutes with sound. Your videos have the slight jerkiness that THB mentioned, while the other one is smooth.



Guess you could upload your ones if you want to, but the ones produced with the RAG guide (which I would really recommend) can be seen on their site. Still not sure if your 25 MB for a one minute video is the final result, because a 40 minute take would eat up 1 GB of space then.

I agree with everything TCD has said, unless you enjoy stabbing yourself with a knife, then you should follow Del's guide.

[Galahad/FLT]

I'd hate to see Deleauvives guide to boiling a kettle, I fear it would span several volumes, and a hot kettle at the conclusion of said volumes isn't exactly a guarantee!

[NewDeli]

mmmh... That's nice of you TCD to try to get me back on track, but I think with RAG we're on two rather opposite projects in scope.

My HowTo is aimed at letting the final user control the size and quality of his video from avidemux (or any other free converter), the output as processed by Camtasia Studio is supposed to be determined by a preset "as raw as it can get" (it's consisting of what I would call the "dirty part of the job").

As a side note, the audio quality from the RAG longplays is minimal (<128k AAC). In Camtasia Studio there are presets for every taste, I didn't though of demonstrating its capability at making the smallest possible longplay in size (MP4 / flash preset can be adjusted to the shittiest possible quality "1%")

In other words, I choose to have Camstudio recorder trying to mimic full-frames, and that would be possible because TechSmith codec is to my eyes relatively less destructive AND would have a low CPU footprint to let WinUAE do its job without any major disturbance.

As with WinuAE, producing wizard of Camtasia studio would use the system-shared codec panel for encoding to xvid, and I absolutely want to avoid that.
Comes avidemux gui :
It's purpose is to encode the video as the user wants it to be (both in format and in size) wihout relying on the installed codecs.

To sum up :
WinUAE output -> TechSmith "raw" output produced "as is", without using the "shareable format" presets aka "the dirty job" -> further encoding (& de-interlacing) with a more versatile tool aka "the quick job"


Sorry TCD, I can't be arsed to play Goblin 3. I took a capture of me playing Wings of Death, first level and this time I choose less killer settings :

• 25fps
• TechSmith codec slider nearer to Best Compression

I have produced three videos from the so-called Camtasia "raw" output :

1. One is standard xvid/mp3
2. The other is mpegv2/aac
3. Last is an MPEG-2 compatible mpg (truly DVD-compatible)

Here (part 1, part 2, part 3) they are on RS, in pristine quality . Resolution should be 640x480 for 1 & 2, but you get the picture.

I hope it is clear now that I wish to obtain a very good quality at final stage of production and that each of the two steps (plus the editing in-between) make sense in that perspective.
I'll make a new thread about it in time, but the idea is to build DVD ISO images with 5 or 6 in-game (or demos) videos of 10-15 minutes each (so smaller "download size", as sought after by RAG is not relevant to my needs) to be watched from the living-room.

[Photon]

Didn't read the obviously ambitious howto - is it something like the one from Recorded Amiga Games? Schlauchi got me started, and using the Techsmith codec to avi in WinUAE -> h.264 in mp4 is unbeatable!

In fact, only a few video players are up to spec when it comes to replaying a perfect and tiny mp4 video recorded at 50fps correctly (WMP11 is best actually (!), closely followed by Zoom Player and MPC. End of list. )

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

My HowTo is aimed at letting the final user control the size and quality of his video from avidemux (or any other free converter), the output as processed by Camtasia Studio is supposed to be determined by a preset "as raw as it can get" (it's consisting of what I would call the "dirty part of the job").

Camtasia isn't 'as raw as it can get'. If you would have read the tutorial on RAG you would see that the quality decision is completely in the x264 encoding process (or whatever codec you prefer). So of course you can select any type of quality during that step. I really wonder if you ever tried to replace step one of your tutorial with a lossless codec inside WinUAE and looked at the 'CPU footprint'.

[Maccara]

Let's recap the outline of producing game footage in its basic components:

1. setup which runs games smoothly
2. capture raw footage
3. edit & encode

I'm questioning the 2 part here, which seems to be overly complex with Camtasia when you can get direct lossless output from winuae _without drop frames_.

That's what I've been questioning, as it seems much easier with other methods. Editing & encoding is trivial (and there's TONS of guides for that) and I don't care what you use for that, as long as you get the results you want.

When you get part 2 right, everything after that becomes just a question of target audience/platform and personal preferences. And I'm not interested in a pissing contest on encoding qualities (as they're usually a subjective matter and depend greatly on target and intent).

So, my question still is: Why should anyone go through the trouble with Camtasia to capture the footage when it:
1. seems to be overly complex
2. looses frames
3. doesn't have any real added value (you said you don't like camtasia specifically for its editing values and you can use its codec directly in winuae too - which would make more sense anyway, IMO)

You try to convince us with your second FAQ entry, but that is a completely bogus question / answer. It's not like you're forced to capture directly to xvid from winuae or use the winuae output as-is.

Whereas, in fact, you can get better raw footage directly from WinUAE than using Camtasia for editing purposes, as you're not forced to drop frames from the get-co (and yes, it does matter, even more so if you want to produce 50i or 50p footage).

And Deli, I'm not trying to convince you to change your methods; if you're happy with the output you get, good for you. What I'm questioning is that you seem to put out a guide for others' with false premises and questionable methods and I would like a rationale for that.

So far you have not shown that Camtasia is easier or does a better capture (in fact, we know it doesn't - it drops frames). So why use it?

In my opinion, you would have benefited more from just figuring out why internal capture didn't work for you (I assume you had some issues with it as you said you dropped it early on) than invent a convoluted method for a 3rd party app which isn't even designed for this purpose. But of course, you may have your reasons.

Your guide has value if someone wants to use Camtasia specifically for some reason. But ...why?

Am I getting through to you at all what I'm asking?

Someone else comment? Does someone else understand what I'm questioning and are my questions sound and valid?

[TCD]

I see your point and I would suggest that Deleauvive tries to make step 2 with WinUAE and a non resource hog codec. The result should be rather interesting.

[T_hairy_bootson]

Originally Posted by Maccara

What I'm questioning is that you seem to put out a guide for others' with false premises and questionable methods and I would like a rationale for that.

Thats what he does, check out some of his previous threads, misinformation hidden in long winded posts seems to be his modus operandi. And if you question it he just goes into super long winded defence mode and doesnt bother answering direct questions.

[NewDeli]

A quick update :
huffyuv win32 binaries haven't been compiled in years, I managed to have it (v2.1.11) popup in the system codec panel ... Also installed multithread huffyuv. Tried to do a capture with both via WinUAE, it didn't work. May be that would be different with XP, for now cannot confirm it wouldn't.

Used TechSmith codec from within WinUAE. The captured full-screen video would be the full-screen frame with a small rectangle of the actual video in the upper-left corner . Also, the LIVE LAME MP3 encoding didn't work (got inaudible PCM audio instead). Not really smth that could be deemed usable for further editing/encoding.

Also, it seems you Maccara and TCD to a lesser extend insisted on this severe drop frame issue the TechSmith codec would have.
Except for full-frames, I can't conceive how a "lossless codec" would correspond to 1:1 output. I'd like to have your view on that, and any suggestion as to which other codec I could use in WinUAE to preserve quality (and that would allow me to capture the full-screen).

The issue I would have with full-frames is quite simple, it would be unusable (near-freezing of the gameplay) albeit my PC bearing a decent processing power.


EDIT

Originally Posted by TechSmith

TechSmith video codec provide lossless image quality coupled with excellent compression ratios.

It can be downloaded from here.


@THB
Look, I have been trying these last days to improve on bug reporting, dealing with newcomer's issue (or leaving it to others if I really don't have any additional input), and thinking over some of the things I posted that were probably displeasing to a majority.

I am not asking you or KG to be supportive, but at least I think it would be nice if you keep the sarcastic comments (and tags "editing") to the OT sections. I have Skateblind on ignore and will report similar posts if you're persisting with your shallow criticisim and lack of genuine attempt at examining the resources I am posting or reproducing bugs I experience.

I don't want to waste time denegating your filthy assumptions. May be that one will captive your attention : If that tendency cannot be reverted despite my efforts, you would experience the utter delight of me browsing EAB in "read-only" mode.

[killergorilla]

I merely commented on how your "quick" guide was pretty lenghty/complex.

I may have been a little sarcastic with it, for which I promise not to do again in reply to any of your posts, ever.

[Maccara]

Deli, I will get back to you with some more suggestions after I have checked out. I'll use the current beta to confirm. (I'm not able to do it right away, though)
I'll do this just to be sure I'm not talking out of my ass and have something to back up my "claims" and don't accidentally recommend something broken.

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

A quick update :
huffyuv win32 binaries haven't been compiled in years, I managed to have it (v2.1.11) popup in the system codec panel ... Also installed multithread huffyuv.

This http://neuron2.net/www.math.berkeley...g/huffyuv.html should work. However, I'm not sure if it is straightforward to install it in Vista or 7 - I think I had to install it manually even in XP64.

I wouldn't recommend multithreaded build of huffyuv, as it is an overkill for this purpose (might actually hurt even; I think it's pretty experimental).

I'll confirm later how this works on my system (XPx64) with WinUAE.

Also, it seems you Maccara and TCD to a lesser extend insisted on this severe drop frame issue the TechSmith codec would have.

I don't think there's any problem with the TechSmith codec itself - it's Camtasia itself which doesn't allow full rate capture. Can someone confirm?
I think the TechSmith codec could be an excellent choice (although, I haven't tried it myself, so can't confirm atm).

Except for full-frames, I can't conceive how a "lossless codec" would correspond to 1:1 output. I'd like to have your view on that, and any other suggestion as to which codec I would use in WinUAE.

Lossless codec, by definition, is 1:1 output (if it isn't, there is a bug in the codec). Although, you need to be careful about colorspace conversions here (i.e. make sure they don't happen). Also, if you set some codec option so that it saves only half resolution (for example), then of course it isn't 1:1 anymore.

If that isn't enough explanation, can you please clarify what is hard to understand and I can try to elaborate.

You could check out http://compression.ru/video/codec_co...s_2007_en.html for alternative lossless codecs to try. Just make sure it's capable to capture RGB and not only YUV or YV12. That should contain even a nice comparison about speed/compression (select something _fast_). (Alparysoft codec seems quite fast too)

You could also try MJPEG with very low compression. It isn't lossless, but it is pretty near (as long as no multiple saves) and it is very fast (and supports interlaced footage directly - at least Pegasus Imaging version of it does).

The issue I would have with full-frames is quite simple, it would be unusable (near-freezing of the gameplay) albeit my PC bearing a decent processing power.

If by full frames you mean for example 640x512, your machine should be plenty powerful enough to capture that at 50fps. There shouldn't be any need to capture higher resolution than that, and if your core2 duo can't handle that, I think something is seriously wrong.

I'll verify this too on my setup (which is slower than yours).

If you're, on the other hand, trying to capture something like 1600x1200@50fps, that will be a strain even on I/O alone with any lossless codec (in a single HD config), not mention the CPU. That's going to need a little bit more preparation, but Camtasia still wouldn't probably be a "best" choice (IMO).

[NewDeli]

I am more familiar with the popular audio codecs when it comes to comparing lossy VS lossless. If huffyuv and the others are lossless similarly to FLAC being lossless VS mp3, I think I dig it. What I couldn't admit that easily is that those codecs wouldn't use any compression method whatsoever to achieve their results.

Before you go on with these experiments (and I thank you for trying to come up with something useable the way I described it), I think you should take notice of WinUAE apparent issues with the AVi output feature : More often that not, I would get a AVIStreamSetFormat() FAILED error msg * (just tried with Lagarih lossless codec, which seems pretty awesome theoritically).
* should probably need a separate bug report

If for some reason, you don't like Camtasia Studio, I suggest downloading FRAPS or CamStudio, and do the raw capture tests from there, with your preferred codec, @↓50fps and RGB "inclusion" and any "lossless goodness" you wish. May be TCD can confirm the crashes with WinUAE. The way I do it is :

• Clicking AVI output enabled
• + Switching to FullScreen + AutovSync after the game has started
• + moving the CPU idle slider right before hitting OK

EDIT : Multithread Hufyuv serves its purpose just fine at capturing WinUAE output, when using Camtasia Studio recorder .

So I'll repeat it : at least when using my custom config, there seem to be a blocking issue with WinUAE AVI output feature, when set to exotic codecs .

[Photon]

If I was unclear before, I'll put it briefly: what's there to improve on the RAG method? Little CPUload=zero skipped frames, h.264 .mp4 is universally playable, the resulting video output is flawless, a few players are even capable of replaying 50fps vids flawlessly.

From this perfect quality, there's only extras left, as I see it - like a proper and ambitious PAL or NTSC crt-filter to make the pixels like soft glowing pillows rather than sharp squares.

[Maccara]

I just tested with huffyuv capture, and it is absolutely flawless and doesn't strain my lowly amd x2 @ 2.2GHz at all at 640x400x32@50fps at a500 quickstart settings. You may need a dedicated drive to capture to, however (can be a bit heavy on I/O).

However, purely default options won't do, as you need to enable RGBA mode (just a single checkbox) to actually capture 32bit RGB (most (if not all) codecs default to 24bit, as that is what is normally needed, but winuae requires 32bit for some reason; I doubt it actually uses the alpha channel?) or winuae will complain.

(this actually should be made to change request - most codecs prefer 24bit RGB)

Also, I'm not sure how the current beta determines recording resolution, as I first got a bit off-centered image (but cropping would've fixed anyway that in this case, which I would've needed to do anyway).

Also, a quick tip how to manually install huffyuv (on Vista64, for example) see http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-hap...ta-64-bit.html

UT-video codec did also good (RGB version), but was just a tad heavy on my system (might be excellent for you).
readme/installer(x86)(x64)/source (you'll need the x86 version for winuae)

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

I am more familiar with the audio codecs when it comes to comparing lossy VS lossless. If huffyuv and the others are lossless similarly to FLAC being lossless VS mp3, I think I dig it. What I couldn't admit that easily is that those codecs wouldn't use any compression method whatsoever to achieve their results.

Yes, it is exactly the same idea as in FLAC. Huffyuv uses arithmetic compression, if I remember correctly. Characteristic for that is that encoding is easier (on cpu) than decoding. And I can guarantee it is as lossless as flac (i.e. 1:1 output). That's why it only achieves about 2:1 compression (probably not even that in RGB mode).

It is a bit unfortunate, as the decoding speed is lower than encoding, makes it a bit difficult for me to preview the results properly easily... (decoding huffyuv seriously strains this system)

Any lossless video codec MUST produce 1:1 output, or it can't be called lossless. (however, there have been some shady vendors in the past who have claimed remarkable lossless compression, and in reality weren't lossless at all)

Before you go on with these experiments (and I thank you for trying to come up with something useable the way I described it), I think you should take notice of WinUAE apparent issues with the AVi output feature : More often that not, I would get a AVIStreamSetFormat() FAILED error msg * (just tried with Lagarih lossless codec, which seems pretty awesome theoritically).
* should probably need a separate bug report

Yes, that error is because winuae wants to use 32bit RGB (or RGBA, in other words). Lagarith settings "Mode" dropdown first selection should have "RGBA" and that should work. Lagarith may be a bit heavy on resources, but might be doable on your system. (its decoding speed is s-l-o-w, however - even slower than huffyuv)

Another possible issue might be resolution. Many codecs require that all dimensions are divisible by some even number (some require as high as 8, although huffyuv works with 2, IIRC).

If for some reason, you don't like Camtasia Studio, I suggest downloading FRAPS or CamStudio, and do the raw capture tests from there, with your preferred codec, @↓50fps and RGB "inclusion" and any "lossless goodness" you wish. May be TCD can confirm the crashes with WinUAE. The way I do it is :

Camtasia is good (or so I've heard) for what it is designed for. What it does not do very well in general, is record any games. Common message in TechSmith forums is "use FRAPS" any time someone complains about game recording.

Most screen recorders are not very good for capturing games (or full motion video, for that matter), unless specifically designed for that purpose (like fraps). It may be doable, but it is usually a hassle. I always prefer (in any application) first their included methods (if there are any, and they're working) as they usually provide the least hassle and least additional strain on system and usually the best possible output quality (providing it lets you use a codec of your choice).

Fraps is excellent for 3D capture (I gather it would do well for winuae with directd3d filters enabled -> haven't tested though).

Btw, I also just set up video/audio codecs (used pcm for audio - would compress it in edit/post anyway), then started and just clicked "avi enabled". Didn't need any further fiddling.

So I'll repeat : at least when using my custom config, there seem to be a blocking issue with WinUAE AVI output feature, when set to exotic codecs .

I'm not sure of the status of the beta on video output, so it may (probably does) bring its own issues. I should test with official release...

However, I was able to get instant output with the codecs I had already installed (needed to set one option in codec), so it at least is basically working and much easier to use (than a separate screencap software with its additional resource requirements and usual quality issues). It would be nice if there was some proper documentation for it, however. (at least couldn't find anything immediately, except some guides)

Edit: Included huffyuv settings window which worked for me in winuae

[Mad-Matt]

I like to keep it simple. Xvid, realtime capture profile , max bitrate. Gives me top quality output to edit later as I require, can compress it more when done. No real cpu hit and filesize is perfectly managable.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

May be TCD can confirm the crashes with WinUAE. The way I do it is :

• Clicking AVI output enabled
• + Switching to FullScreen + AutovSync after the game has started
• + moving the CPU idle slider right before hitting OK

Nope, doesn't crash here. Also the TechSmith codec works fine here. Sorry, but I don't know what's wrong on your end.

[Maccara]

@TCD: Not sure if you read my too-long reply, but that seems to be purely a RGB vs RGBA issue. TechSmith probably uses RGBA anyway as it is a screen capture codec.

So, I can confirm this "issue" with the latest beta. (can be fixed with proper codec / codec settings, or Toni could negotiate colorspaces differently - not sure if it is worth it, as long as it is a known issue)