Details for the next generation of Flickerfixers from Individual Computers

[Retrofan]

I've completed my preorder with Vesalia. I did the pre-preorder in 2010 and I think I still had a compromise. They are doing a great job too.


EDIT: My "order status" there has the same reference number of the pre-preorder I did in 2010

[Ratte]

btw. yesterday i posted a link to a picasso96 driver from symplex for the indivisionecs
even today (2nd april) the news are still the same ...

[mfilos]

@Ratte
I know... I still haven't found some time to test it out for funz...
I will though and report back
It's just that a friend is making me test stuffz on my Grex 4000 so time is limited

[MrCheese]

I'm seriously tempted by this, but have some questions. Here seems a good place to ask. I understand that by using this I can connect my A1200 (with 1231/42 and CF-IDE adaptor) to my PC monitor, which is this http://benq.co.uk/products/LCD/index...s/product/1098 . Will using the Indivision MK II allow me to run Workbench at a higher resolution? Also will it allow me to run WHDLoad games (primary reason for using the Amiga)? I presume the screen would be centered and running at the original aspect - so black bars would be present.

[mfilos]

- If you mean PAL Hi-Res Laced (640x512) then yes from release.
- If you mean HighGFX modes (1024x768 / 1280x720) that were supported on previous Indivision series, or other modes, then possibly yes with future core upgrades as Jens said.

[MrCheese]

Originally Posted by mfilos

- If you mean PAL Hi-Res Laced (640x512) then yes from release.
- If you mean HighGFX modes (1024x768 / 1280x720) that were supported on previous Indivision series, or other modes, then possibly yes with future core upgrades as Jens said.

I'm not quite sure what I mean, hence the vague questions! So I can run a higher res workbench, with firmware updates producing more resolutions when Jens does the maths and tweaks etc. A lot of games run at 50hz on a UK Amiga, do they adjust to refresh rates available on the Amiga or does the Indivision work some magic to make a 50hz game refresh work on a PC monitor, or does my monitor have to refresh at 50hz?

[roy bates]

Originally Posted by MrCheese

I'm not quite sure what I mean, hence the vague questions! So I can run a higher res workbench, with firmware updates producing more resolutions when Jens does the maths and tweaks etc. A lot of games run at 50hz on a UK Amiga, do they adjust to refresh rates available on the Amiga or does the Indivision work some magic to make a 50hz game refresh work on a PC monitor, or does my monitor have to refresh at 50hz?

it upscales them to work on pc monitors/lcd's/leds that normaly take about 60hz on the vga port.


is there any chance jens can post a list of of modes and what there upscaled to?

[MrCheese]

Originally Posted by roy bates

it upscales them to work on pc monitors/lcd's/leds that normaly take about 60hz on the vga port.


is there any chance jens can post a list of of modes and what there upscaled to?

Upscale of the resolution? That makes sense, but running a 50hz Amiga game at 60hz would produce tearing? Or is the Amiga restricted to PAL 60hz, and if so what are the consequences of that? I'm trying to decide if I can stay with my trusty 8833 or move onto the Indivision. A bigger workbench is tempting but not if games either don't work or do work but with tearing or other artifacts. I'm not quite there with my understanding of the product to determine if it's worth a purchase. I imagine these are "trivial" questions but they are important ones for me.

[d0pefish]

Hopefully this will help Jens with the numerous questions people are asking.

The Indivision as a product is primarily a scandoubler/flickerfixer, a device that takes the 15KHz TV-style horizontal scan rate of the Amiga and doubles it so that it works with PC monitors.

So the primary goal is to get your ancient Amiga connected to a modern, standard PC monitor, so you are not stuck with dying Amiga-specific monitors and televisions.

For VGA CRTs that can usually handle 50Hz vertical sync (i.e. untouched, remember so far we've only doubled the horizontal rate), this is enough, and indeed this is how most of the classic scandoublers from the 1990s worked. However, many TFTs have a narrower scanrate range and can only handle 60Hz vertical minimum, so the Indivision has a secondary goal of increasing the vertical refreshrate too.

This comes at the price of the viewer perceiving "tearing" on parts of the screen that are moving, as the input scanrate does not match the output scanrate. People who spend all their time on the Workbench won't be bothered by this at all, but those who play games may not like the tearing. So the (current) Indivision lets you choose 1.00x vertical refresh rate multiplier (i.e. unscaled) for those with 50Hz-capable monitors that desire tear-free gaming, or a 1.25x multiplier for pickier monitors or for those that want less flicker on a CRT. This doesn't effect the speed of the Amiga per se, it simply modifies how quickly the Indivision outputs what it has sampled from the Amiga's native output.

It's not a magical replacement for a graphics card, although with the previous Indivisions, some monitor-driver hacks and special firmware features have allowed it to do certain things *like* a graphics card, within the limits of the Amiga's chipset, and with the support of special firmware functionality which may/may not be implemented in this new revision - although Jens is implying that the new hardware *could potentially* allow further enhancements without any promises.

At the end of the day, anything beyond being a scandoubler (i.e. crazy higher resolutions etc.) should just be considered bonus gravy/gimmicks, as it is beyond the official scope of the product and hasn't even been implemented in this new-generation Indivision yet. As Jens has said, all that is promised on release day is that you will be able to see PAL and NTSC screens, with their vertical refresh rates (native 50Hz/60Hz) bumped to 62.5Hz and 75Hz respectively. It may be some time before we even get the option to revert to the native 50Hz/60Hz vertical refresh rates - Jens will surely announce these updates when he has finished them. For now, he is probably focussed on getting the hardware ready, with the software to come later.

Anyone who expects to play Superfrog "upscaled" to "1080p" needs to do a reality-check and re-read the entire thread. This is not what the Indivision is designed to do. For clarification what resolutions your PC monitor receives, read this post:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=199

In other words - eg. Pal:Hires input taken from Amiga optionally padded out with black pixels to a more standard PC-style resolution like 800x600 (padding may be configurable with firmware/config tool updates), and outputted to the monitor with a bump to the vertical refresh rate, again may be configurable with future updates. No "scaling" to the pixels takes place - the Amiga input is "painted" onto a larger canvas and may have black borders depending on input res. and output res. You can then tweak-out any borders with your monitor's controls.

We should allow Jens to make announcements instead of wildly speculating about unrealistic super-HD fantasies. I am just happy to be able to use a modern screen to see my Amiga's classic screenmodes. Anything else, like special enhanced resolutions, is like I say, gravy, and I'm sure Jens will let us know if he decides to implement them.

Hope this helps explain a few things, and please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by d0pefish

The Indivision as a product is primarily a scandoubler/flickerfixer, a device that takes the 15KHz TV-style horizontal scan rate of the Amiga and doubles it so that it works with PC monitors.

It does not double for all screen modes. Only old flickerfixers do that, but that would result in the 50Hz requirement that MrCheese was asking for. Since most monitors can't handle 50Hz, you're stuck with a very small choice. Indivision can not only double, but multiply with almost any factor. What I've promised for the first release is a 2.5 multiplier for the pixelclock, so a PAL screen is output at 62.5Hz, keeping tearing at minimum.

Also, you're mixing terms "scandoubler" and "flickerfixer" like many people do. Note that the first flickerfixers back in the days (over 20 years ago) were created in order to get rid of interlace-flicker. At some point, 15kHz-capable monitors became hard to find, and flickerfixers were still the only thing available for increasing the horizontal frequency to the minimum 31kHz that most PC monitors want to see.

During that time, flickerfixers were pretty expensive, so one of the companies was looking for a way to make PC monitors usable WITHOUT building a whole flickerfixer. The idea of a scandoubler was born: A cut-down design that doesn't store a whole frame, but only a single line and outputs it two times at twice the pixelclock. This made early startup menu and simple games visible on cheap PC monitors.

Note that during that time, even flickerfixers did not store a full picture, but had barely enough memory for one frame (half a picture!) and one line. This is enough to build a syncronous flickerfixer, but it was still very expensive due to the high speed and dual-port requirement of the memory chips.

Using the term "scandoubler" for something that's even more sophisticated than the flickerfixers of the Amiga haydays is a little off track. Indivision uses a full framebuffer at even higher speeds and full colour depth, so it does *more* than a flickerfixer back in the days, and it does *way*more* than a scandoubler.

Originally Posted by roy bates

is there any chance jens can post a list of of modes and what there upscaled to?

Indivision AGA was the first flickerfixer ever to support all Amiga screenmodes but A2024. Indivision AGA MK2 will follow that lead.

Jens

[roy bates]

thanks jens.

[MrCheese]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

It does not double for all screen modes. Only old flickerfixers do that, but that would result in the 50Hz requirement that MrCheese was asking for. Since most monitors can't handle 50Hz, you're stuck with a very small choice. Indivision can not only double, but multiply with almost any factor. What I've promised for the first release is a 2.5 multiplier for the pixelclock, so a PAL screen is output at 62.5Hz, keeping tearing at minimum.

Also, you're mixing terms "scandoubler" and "flickerfixer" like many people do. Note that the first flickerfixers back in the days (over 20 years ago) were created in order to get rid of interlace-flicker. At some point, 15kHz-capable monitors became hard to find, and flickerfixers were still the only thing available for increasing the horizontal frequency to the minimum 31kHz that most PC monitors want to see.

During that time, flickerfixers were pretty expensive, so one of the companies was looking for a way to make PC monitors usable WITHOUT building a whole flickerfixer. The idea of a scandoubler was born: A cut-down design that doesn't store a whole frame, but only a single line and outputs it two times at twice the pixelclock. This made early startup menu and simple games visible on cheap PC monitors.

Note that during that time, even flickerfixers did not store a full picture, but had barely enough memory for one frame (half a picture!) and one line. This is enough to build a syncronous flickerfixer, but it was still very expensive due to the high speed and dual-port requirement of the memory chips.

Using the term "scandoubler" for something that's even more sophisticated than the flickerfixers of the Amiga haydays is a little off track. Indivision uses a full framebuffer at even higher speeds and full colour depth, so it does *more* than a flickerfixer back in the days, and it does *way*more* than a scandoubler.


Indivision AGA was the first flickerfixer ever to support all Amiga screenmodes but A2024. Indivision AGA MK2 will follow that lead.

Jens

Hi Jens,

At some point would it be reasonable to suggest that 50hz may be supported? I know you are not making promises at the moment. The reason I ask is http://benq.co.uk/products/LCD/index...s/product/1098 states "Vertical Frequency (Max)Hz 50 ~ 76" so 50hz is supported which should make for smooth scrolling within games at 50hz. I understand the resolution would be a standard PC screen resolution e.g. 800 x 600.

Many thanks for your time.

MrCheese.

[d0pefish]

Thanks for the clarification Jens!

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

It does not double for all screen modes. Only old flickerfixers do that...

Indeed, yes - I think "scandoubler" is probably an insulting name for something as advanced and flexible as the Indivision. Of course, I didn't bother explaining the part about the framebuffer, because you are much better at explaining that

Perhaps "scan converter" would be more appropriate for this function - I'm just too used to the old fashioned term.

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

Also, you're mixing terms "scandoubler" and "flickerfixer" like many people do

When I said "scandoubler/flickerfixer" I meant that the Indivision does both, not one-or-the-other, or implying that both terms mean the same thing - as you say, many people confuse these terms. I just didn't explain the flickerfixer part. But it is an important difference, thanks for catching that.

I used to own a device years ago, I think it was a ScanMagic, that did not include a flickerfixer, so PAL:Hi-Res Laced would still hurt my eyes It is great to be able use this screenmode on my Indi ECS nicely deinterlaced.

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

Using the term "scandoubler" for something that's even more sophisticated than the flickerfixers of the Amiga haydays is a little off track. Indivision uses a full framebuffer at even higher speeds and full colour depth, so it does *more* than a flickerfixer back in the days, and it does *way*more* than a scandoubler.

Agreed completely, >I< understand and appreciate the device's capabilities and what it is versus what it is not - the problem is finding a way to explain what the Indivision offers to customers without leading people into thinking it's a full RTG solution (although it very nearly unofficially is, looking at another thread!), a pixel-upscaler, or an nVIDIA GeForce.

I just saw "1080p" mentioned in this thread a few times and started to worry for you.

It goes without saying that the Indivision ECS/AGA are the most advanced solution to the problem, and the best shot anyone will probably ever have at getting modern screens working perfectly with their Amigas.

Best,
-D

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by MrCheese

Hi Jens,

At some point would it be reasonable to suggest that 50hz may be supported?

Please take the time to read this thread.

thanks,
Jens

[TreacleWench]

Hi guys,

I have been reading this thread and there one thing about the new Indivision which isn't clear to me. Now it has been mentioned that the connection will be DVI-I which carries both digital and analog signals, plus several of you have been discussing building a HDMI adapter which I believe is digital only.

So am I to understand that the Indivision mkII will output a digital signal? If sothis is a HUUUUGE selling point as I have always had problems with ghosting on my mkI. Amazingly, all the "professional" quality VGA cables I've tried cause chronic ghosting yet a cheap cable I have (which came free with my monitor) causes virtually none!

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by TreacleWench

So am I to understand that the Indivision mkII will output a digital signal? If sothis is a HUUUUGE selling point

Yes, that's what it means, and why so many people upgrade from their MK1.

Jens

[TreacleWench]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

Yes, that's what it means, and why so many people upgrade from their MK1.

Jens

Well, I'm sold! Placed my pre-order with Amigakit

[magnetic]

Jens

The monitor I want to use the MK2 with doesnt work in PAL mode with a dce flicker fixer (but ntsc is fine) will I be able to use this tft with mk2 in PAL mode?

[PulsatingQuasar]

Hi,

Just preordered 2 of these for the A1200 at AmigaKit.

Don't want to be left out this time around.

I hope Jens and the resellers this time have the possibility to do another production run if stock is gone or almost gone.

[amigakit.com]

@TreacleWench @PulsatingQuasar

Thank you very much for the orders!