Dave Haynie A3000+

[nobody]

Originally Posted by kovacm

what da fuck you talking about ?!?

Atari Inc. was loosing 1.000.000$ per DAY. Jack come to try to fix the company.

Are you from capitalist society or communist? What part you do not understand?

I thought the discussion was if Tramiel was a good guy or not? I read that all employees loved him. Or else in a capitalist country Irvine Gould had the right to send Tramiel home, as he was owning the company and clearly Tramiel was mismanaging it.
Maybe the truth is that employees left from Commodore after Jack fled because they were his block inside the company and probably soon after they would get fired too

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by nobody

I thought the discussion was if Tramiel was a good guy or not? I read that all employees loved him. Or else in a capitalist country Irvine Gould had the right to send Tramiel home, as he was owning the company and clearly Tramiel was mismanaging it.

Of course he had rights. Irvin send Jack home because Jack did not want to allow him to destroy company (which he eventually did). Atari ST would have much stronger support (money, technically, brand...) if it was produced by Commodore.

Originally Posted by nobody

Maybe the truth is that employees left from Commodore after Jack fled because they were his block inside the company and probably soon after they would get fired too

Maybe... now you are the one that speculating

Try to put on paper how many high-profile key people left Commodore for Atari Corp (you have this in Atari history file link that I left in previous post) in mid 80s.

After some high-profile employees departure Commodore they would put interim as replacement until they could find proper substitute for position.



you can find bunch of similar stories of people that left Commodore for Atari Corp.

News paper from the time call this: exodus from Commodore (not persecution or similar).


btw
to see how Jack Tramiel was you need to hear and other side, not just R J Mical and Dave Needle (repeated by Dave Haynie). I suggest you movie 8-bit generation: The Commodore Wars:

[ Show youtube player ]

http://www.8bitgeneration.com/the-mo...ommodore-wars/

[roondar]

Originally Posted by kovacm

What "trustworthy" evidence?

Atari Inc - Amiga Corp. copy of contract sign by Warner owned Atari Inc. vs R J Mical claims that it was Jack behind this deal and that Jack gave Amiga 500.000$ ???

Or what R J Mical said that Atari Inc offer Amiga 1$ per share, than 0.8$... when in contract is stated 3$ per share???

What more evidence do you want?

R J Mical is LIAR, like I stated before, and what he said for himself.
Problem is that people believe him and took his word for truth!

This is exactly what I mean! You are using one example to try to disprove all other statements. So here's my response:

You are right that the contract stated all those things and that it was signed prior to Tramiel taking over the company. This is easily found in several on-line sources.

However, I think it's really dubious to say RJ Mical knew all the details of the contract and negotiations: the man was not Amiga's CEO and was not directly involved in any of the negotiations at all.

It's entirely possible that his boss (David Morse) told him this happened a certain way and he just believed it. Considering how David was negotiating (see pages 745 and 746 from Atari Inc: Business is fun, where he's clearly bending the truth to get an advantage), this seems distinctly possible to me.

Couple this with misremembering the way things went after a good 30 years or so, and I'd say that this certainly feel a more plausible explanation than RJ deliberately telling a bunch of lies. Any day of the week. Then again, I met RJ once and he's a very nice guy so maybe I'm biased.

However, the same book also shows that Tramiel was not so much a nice guy: on page 743, it is stated he bluntly/honestly told Amiga inc that he wanted the technology but not the people. Effectively telling them, ahead of time, that doing business with him meant losing their jobs and their work. No wonder that Amiga Inc. got worried when he bought Atari.

I would've!

---

So in essence, the very source you use to try and prove Tramiel was a good guy also contains information that shows he was not really one. It seems to me that you just want Tramiel to be a good guy and aren't that interested in any evidence to the contrary. Which is fine, but you should call that what it is: your opinion. Not a fact.

Because as we've seen, there is plenty of counter evidence that says otherwise.

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by roondar

You are right that the contract stated all those things and that it was signed prior to Tramiel taking over the company. This is easily found in several on-line sources.

Yes, it is easy to find this information on-line now but why then, until recently, even Amiga wikipedia article stated that Jack Tramiel lend money to Amiga!!

Originally Posted by roondar

However, I think it's really dubious to say RJ Mical knew all the details of the contract and negotiations: the man was not Amiga's CEO and was not directly involved in any of the negotiations at all.

He was not CEO, not he was involved in negotiations but he has no problem to go around and spread LIES! (on positive note is that he admit that he would rather make up story than tell truth but problem is that people take his STORIES for truth!)

So how many stories did he tell to the public that are lies? This is real question. I am pointing only on his own words.

Originally Posted by roondar

It's entirely possible that his boss (David Morse) told him this happened a certain way and he just believed it. Considering how David was negotiating (see pages 745 and 746 from Atari Inc: Business is fun, where he's clearly bending the truth to get an advantage), this seems distinctly possible to me.

I am glad that you read pages about David Morse from Atari Inc: Business is fun and agree.

Originally Posted by roondar

Couple this with misremembering the way things went after a good 30 years or so, and I'd say that this certainly feel a more plausible explanation than RJ deliberately telling a bunch of lies.

I can not find when R J Mical start to go around telling stories (in audio clip from my previous post he said: I done this more than 40 times... and that audio is from 90s I believe).

Originally Posted by roondar

Any day of the week. Then again, I met RJ once and he's a very nice guy so maybe I'm biased.

I believe that he is nice guy. He is also keen on Jack Tramiel personally; that can be seen in his every public talk. Beside him, only Dave Needle, has this hatred toward Jack. I explain this by fact that both work on Epyx and that both had to deal with Jack when Atari bought Lynx.

Originally Posted by roondar

However, the same book also shows that Tramiel was not so much a nice guy: on page 743, it is stated he bluntly/honestly told Amiga inc that he wanted the technology but not the people.

Exactly: Jack Tramiel was like that: bluntly honestly!

But he stated same when Amiga approach Commodore in 1983 while he still was with Commodore.
But also many others, including SGI, said that they were not interested in team, but only in chips (R J Mical also talk about this!).
So at the end, Jack was not alone that did not want Amiga team...

Adam Chowaniec at Commodore 25th Anniversary (search in YT, highly recommended to watch!) also bring memory that Amiga OS guy had some rabbits around him while he was programing OS so Amiga team was certainly one unorthodox one they were like family, but maybe to crazy one for business

Originally Posted by roondar

Effectively telling them, ahead of time, that doing business with him meant losing their jobs and their work. No wonder that Amiga Inc. got worried when he bought Atari.

David Morse sign great deal with Atari Inc. - best that he could get (possible "the only"). It was not bad deal at all but problem was that Atari Inc. lose 400$ million dollars two quarters in row and it was apparent that Atari Inc. would not be in position to honor the deal!
As soon as rumors start that Jack would take over Atari, it was clear that something must be done! Dave Morse play little dirty with Commodore but he manage to pull out the best possible solution for Amiga! Otherwise, we would not have Amiga at all! (Philips maybe would buy it at the end...)

Originally Posted by roondar

So in essence, the very source you use to try and prove Tramiel was a good guy also contains information that shows he was not really one. It seems to me that you just want Tramiel to be a good guy and aren't that interested in any evidence to the contrary. Which is fine, but you should call that what it is: your opinion. Not a fact.

Because as we've seen, there is plenty of counter evidence that says otherwise.

Absolutely agree!

But I want to give as much links, sources and possible facts as I can. I am expecting same from others. Only on this way, watching the "truth" from more sides, we can made better conclusions. I am glad that you read passages from Curt and Martys book!

Must hurry now, thanks for discussion! thank also to nobody! Sorry for being too harsh sometimes

[demoniac]

Originally Posted by kovacm

He was not CEO, not he was involved in negotiations but he has no problem to go around and spread LIES! (on positive note is that he admit that he would rather make up story than tell truth but problem is that people take his STORIES for truth!)

So how many stories did he tell to the public that are lies? This is real question. I am pointing only on his own words.

It seems to me that the basis for your accusation that R.J. is lying is from you quoting his alleged, "If I have to choose between the truth and telling a good story - I prefer to tell a good story," statement, which I have not seen the actual source.

If R.J. did make that statement say 20 years ago, there is little proof that he is of the same mindset today and would continue with the "lies."

I think that R.J. likes to story tell and might not remember all the exact minute details, but I don't think completely fabricate things up. This is from personal interactions with him.

What statements that you think R.J. has made that are completely false?

[idrougge]

There is a saying where I come from, that those you meet on your way up, you will also meet on your way down.

I think that this is what Jack Tramiel (and Atari Corp) encountered.

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by demoniac

It seems to me that the basis for your accusation that R.J. is lying is from you quoting his alleged, "If I have to choose between the truth and telling a good story - I prefer to tell a good story," statement, which I have not seen the actual source.

In my post #52 I leave audio link where you can hear him saying this: link - jump to 13 minute.

I am trying to document with sources every claim I make; just pay attention.

Originally Posted by demoniac

If R.J. did make that statement say 20 years ago, there is little proof that he is of the same mindset today and would continue with the "lies."

Yes, he is. He told same story lately: latest blatant lie is in Viva Amiga movie where he and Dave Nedeele continue to promote this idea that Jack Tramiel wanted Amiga to get revenge on Commodore by snapping Amiga and... bla, bla. Just watch it.

Originally Posted by demoniac

I think that R.J. likes to story tell and might not remember all the exact minute details, but I don't think completely fabricate things up. This is from personal interactions with him.

From all Amiga team members, R J Mical take role of telling "great" stories to Amiga users. He love to do this, he is good at that, only problem is that he is telling stories that have nothing common with reality in many cases, and that he made villain from Jack Tramiel.
My point of view is, like you already could read, is that he and Dave Needle were pissed on Jack since both work at Epyx on game handle console that become Atari Lynx and they were not happy with "giving" it to Atari Corp. R J Mical and Dave Needle are two most vocal people that saying bad things about Jack. They have not single good thing to say about Jack (Dave Hayne have at least something good to say for Jack Tramiel).

Since R J Mical was not involved in business negotiation it is quite possible that Dave Morse present them (rest of Amiga team), like someone suggest, a little bit twisted true since he was the one that did not "honor" (breach) Atari Inc - Amiga Corp agreement (which is absolutely understandable since Atari Inc. would go to Jack Tramiel hands and he already had plans for RockBottomPrice computer, aka ST, and Amiga would go probably nowhere).

Note that Commodore at the end admit that they with Dave Morse, was the one who breach Atari Inc.-Amiga Corp. agreement by paying Atari Corp. undisclosed amount of money in of-courte settlement and by paying for all lawsuits expenses.

Originally Posted by demoniac

What statements that you think R.J. has made that are completely false?

e.g. (from my previous post):

R J Mical claims that it was Jack behind this deal and that Jack gave Amiga 500.000$. From Atari Inc - Amiga Corp. copy of contract you can see that Warner owned Atari gave money to Amiga and sign contract.

R J Mical said that Atari Inc offer Amiga 1$ per share, than 0.8$... when in contract is stated 3$ per share and there was no additional "offers" or blackmailing like R J Mical suggest.