Scanline generators, anyone?

[dreadnought]

The whole "thicc scanlines!" mania is a bit of a funny modern trend by the way. On normal TVs they are much more subtle, or even hardly visible, depending on the TV's quality, input method and settings.

I much prefer it this way. After all, why would anybody want to view the image as if through a window blind? Scanlines should be unobtrusive and blend into the whole IQ. At the same time some pixel/scanline separation is of course also most welcome. On good sets (late Trinitrons) this balance is quite superb

Another thing people tend to forget that scanlines were just one element of the whole CRT-look. On the real thing you also have the shadow mask and more esoteric things, like the inimitable "glow" (that's what best shaders can get very close to, but not a scanline generator or OSSC).

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by Cobe

it does what it supose to do.

Indeed. And it's cheap too. Interesting (and lengthy) discussion about scanlines :
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=28834

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Indeed. And it's cheap too. Interesting (and lengthy) discussion about scanlines :
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=28834

I still can't believe that the people that don't like scanlines outnumbers the ones that like them

I use scanlines in all emulators; without them games look blocky, and not like real hardware IMHO.

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by DamienD

I still can't believe that the people that don't like scanlines outnumbers the ones that like them

I use scanlines in all emulators; without them games look blocky, and not like real hardware IMHO.

Personally don't/didn't really care for them, but messing about with the scanline generator for the photos I posted disguised this PAIN IN THE ARSE vertical lines I get from my Amiga display, so I might actually keep them turned on, in a light setting and use that line filter also as that yielded the best results from my GBS8220.

I don't mind the blockiness either, what would I expect from a 90's computer?

[Cobe]

Thanks gerry! Those with lighter settings look ok. The others look like they have some interpolation artefacts, like when you dont use integer scaling in wiuae.

[Jope]

Originally Posted by DamienD

I use scanlines in all emulators; without them games look blocky, and not like real hardware IMHO.

Just blacking every second line is a bit meh, never really bothered with it myself.

Now shadow mask / aperture grill emulation, that's what makes a CRT.

https://filthypants.blogspot.com/201...t-shaders.html

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by Cobe

Thanks gerry! Those with lighter settings look ok. The others look like they have some interpolation artefacts, like when you dont use integer scaling in wiuae.

No problem.

Looks better in real life.

I actually played New Zealand story last night with the number two strength on scanlines. It helped numb the mind blowing yellows of the game!

So I think it is recommended in the GBS Control Firmware, to use the line filter when using scanlines. That balances out the real dark banding other wise.

Not bad. Still dunno if I'm a scanlines guy.

[Cobe]

This looks very interesting https://forums.libretro.com/t/libretro-v4l2-core/5369
but it seems it never took of...

[Cobe]

Gbs + generic scanline generator give acceptable result.

[dreadnought]

No TV had scanlines that thick.



These images are from a quality Trinitron. On lesser sets, especially via composite, the scanlines would be even less pronounced.

[Cobe]

I know. As I said I have trinitron in basement. This is just something that I can live with in living room.

[SquawkBox]

There are very good CRT TV sets which aren't Trinitron's, Brandt, Philips etc. Those with flat square tube are pretty decent, take my word. Trinitron's do have their share of (usually not significant, but still) issues : More prone to dried up welding, default geometry which may require fine tuning.
@Cobe
How big is that trinitron of yours ? It should be possible to have a 13 or 14'' DVD / TV combo's from the second hand market sent to your place. Just pick it by the handle, and put it in a cupboard when done using it.

[Cobe]

Its smaller, something like that. But other tv in living room isnt acceptable... And the cupboard idea... I want something easy accessible. I sattled with this setup.

[Foebane]

I actually MISS CRTs and wish they were still manufactured, but this is because of DVD as a format rather than any retro computing format.

I remember watching TV transmissions on CRT (both colour and B&W) and being annoyed by the combination of the aerial snow and the composite nature of the image (those dot patterns are ingrained in my memory). But one day, I discovered RGB via SCART (fully wired to do so) and I found I was able to watch pure DVD quality on both NTSC and SCART and in colour for both, and have the best possible picture for the format!

I had a blast during this time, and I was 100% satisfied with DVD as a format. And then came the rise of HD LCDs, and I was bitterly disappointed with DVD on those displays, once my CRTs died. The worst part is, I had to replace all of my DVDs with Blu-rays once the format settled, as I will state as fact that DVDs suck on LCD displays, especially with the interlace factor, as they were never designed to co-exist. I cannot stand the diminished DVD quality on a LCD display.

Ironically, I've had a Blu-ray play on a CRT TV and it looked good, identical to a DVD in fact. If it weren't for CRTs dying out as a display medium, I need never have upgraded.

[SquawkBox]

The second hand market for CRT's in working condition is slowly shrinking overall, but here in France, there are many to be found (I can't be bothered to ask garbage dump guys but some say people regularly throw away their old TV set there, of course you will need to find a remote) through our local Craiglist. Usually, it's the result of housewives who have kept them in their attics / garage / cellars throughout the years for sentimental value. Some are aware my generation hunt them for retro gaming but they don't push up the price too high (20 <-> 60 euros price range).
It's possible to play a DVD on a PS2, provided one uses component cable. Of course, the picture is not as sharp as what one may obtain through the use of a dedicated DVD player. As you may know, softmodded PS2 can play DivX movies or clips (Xvid, not mpeg4 though).
Btw, did you know 21'' and 22'' CRT's (I am talking about monitors this time) are "HD" ? Since they can display 1080p, it can be argued they are indeed.
Anyway, I don't think generated scanlines (through the use of a device such as the SLG 3000) makes much sense on a LCD when using the actual hardware.
People tend to forget about VGA boxes versatility : Assuming for some reason you need a shared monitor and want to keep the CRT TV away, plug in a CRT monitor, a VGA box, a scanline generator and voila, you get both scanlines and convenience while preserving how games should look like through the use of a tube.

Here is some historical piece of information from 1998 worth a read IMHO :

Panasonic has introduced the SL90 ZenTan 19-in CRT monitor, which offers a viewable screen size of 18-in but which is claimed by Panasonic to take up the desk space of a 15-in monitor. The monitor offers a maximum resolution of 1,600 x 1,200 at 75Hz, as well as a dot pitch of 0.25 mm and a maximum horizontal scan frequency of 95Hz. The product supports such ergonomics and power saving standards as TCO95, MPRII and Energy Star. It also features a phosphor coating for improved focus and a shorter cathode ray tube.

Assuming full size CRT's take too much room, such monitors may come in handy. I am not saying finding a CRT monitor bearing shorter cathode ray tube would be an easy task nowadays, but assuredly they were produced once (19'' and 17'' monitors, mostly).

[Foebane]

SquawkBox, I'm well aware of CRT VGA monitors having resolutions like 800x600 and 1024x768 back in the day - I should know, I had them myself. But they were progressive, not interlace (except for a few early trials).

No, I'm talking about plain PAL/NTSC CRT TVs, complete with natural interlace, which was the foundation of how DVD worked - as long as the fields interleaved, it didn't matter how the picture was built up, but it looked glorious every time.

But with LCD and progressive, all of that foundation for DVD was DESTROYED, because there is no way in hell that interlace will ever be converted to progressive, not without masses of horrible, HORRIBLE artifacts on-screen, not least the dreaded "comb" effect.

Also, with LCD, the resolutions were nothing like those of PAL and NTSC, and so the picture was "stretched" to accommodate LCD resolutions, and it too looks horrible on top of the progressivised interlace - I just wish, JUST WISH, that I could've seen a PAL/NTSC DVD picture put onto an LCD display where all the pixels lined up precisely, even if it did result in ugly black surrounds.