English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > News

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 21 June 2019, 13:34   #181
funK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: ItAlien
Posts: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by phx View Post
You really know how to motivate a developer...

Starting games from Workbench, which are not 100% OS compliant, is always a problem. Nobody knows what kind of software you are running in background. You wrote that you're running MuLib 68060.library. I hope that it doesn't conflict with the P5 68060.library, which is opened during early boot phase.

For a reproducible test case I would try to launch the game without startup-sequence (maybe just run the standard SetPatch), or with the original startup/user-startup, without any additional software patches (also clear WBStartup).
Frank, I've got as respect for you as much for Richard and I really appreciate all the hard work you put into your games: maybe my words were a bit too harsh, but I'd rather motivate developers by purchasing their games than with some anonymous post on an internet forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DamienD View Post
Totally agree with everything you've said rsn8887.

It's absolute madness to expect developers to be able to cater for all these non-standard systems
Damien, what I was just trying to do was asking Richard if he was willing to try to understand why the game is completely glitched/corrupted on my system: if you read the manual you'll see he wrote that the game has been tested on a Blizzard 1260, but since he clearly didn't have a BlizzPPC available, I was offering to help him make it work on my Amiga, which coincidentally sports a 68060 in it, too.
If he doesn't have the time or will then it's not really a problem: I'll keep enjoying Reshoot R on my other less expanded Amigas, until someone hopefully writes a WHDLoad patch making the game compatible even with my most non-standard system.
funK is offline  
Old 21 June 2019, 18:33   #182
Puggsy
Banned

 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Toronto
Posts: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazycow View Post
calling him or her a lazy cow isn't very helpfull. (at least in most cases)
You made me laugh. Best post in this wretched thread.
Puggsy is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 05:28   #183
buzzybee
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Landsberg / Germany
Posts: 265
Coming back from a short vacation in the small town of Spa in Belgium and in the Europapark, which I can both really recommend ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsn8887 View Post
None of the commercial Amiga games ever cared for exotic configurations. And nobody was ever mad at those developers. If it runs on a standard A1200 that's enough in my book.

The problem with the Amiga scene is that there seems to be no standard. There are all these unique configurations, and of course nothing works everywhere. Many releases only work on expanded Amigas, some are still developed for standard Amigas. The scene is fragmented.

This hinders indie/homebrew development. I think devs should just target standard setups like A1200 2 MB, A500 512K. Maybe also A500 1MB since it is so very common.

Complaining in such a harsh tone that the game doesn't run on your unique one of a kind bizarre configuration is indeed disrespectful to the developer. Back in the day, games had stickers that told you which configuration it would run on. This is still true with new games. They are developed for a certain config (unexpanded A1200 in this case), not for every possible combination of turbocards etc. under the sun.

Need to thank you for this statement. See, in the old days an Amiga game had to be developed and tested for A500 and nothing else. Nowadays, the situation is totally different.

I tried to develop and test RESHOOT R so that it works on all classic Amiga configs which are common these days. It took me WEEKS to collect Turbocards, install them, play through the game on them. It´s very clearly written on my website and in the manual, which configs RESHOOT R was tested on. And still there are some exotic configs out there which I simply could not get my hands on and which cause unexpected behaviour. These cases are rare, but yes, they exist. I do try to answer all emails in such cases, and to understand what is going on. So far, we got the game running on all configs, even if it did mean to disable expansions and / or boot with only shell or startup-disk. Just like in the old days.


@OS-friendliness: RESHOOT R does NOT shut the system down. It uses the OS for memory management, loading and interrupt handling, and keeps all apps in memory unharmed. That´s actually part of the problem, because not all apps are designed to run parallel to a game. Especially the interrupt handlers are critical and I sometimes wonder if I should have kept an older code version which was more of a classic OS-killer type. Only blitter and copper coding is non-OS-compliant simply because the OS does not provide code which is fast enough or even no code at all. RESHOOT Rs copper management is not possible using the OS.

@Background info (for whoever is interested): To develop the game in a rather OS-compliant way makes sense, because it allowed me to run DPaint and other Amiga tools while quickly testing the game, quit, modify stuff, test the game again. Quick workflow is fun and helped to create a much better game.

Last edited by buzzybee; 24 June 2019 at 05:48.
buzzybee is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 07:10   #184
Minuous
Coder/webmaster/gamer
Minuous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canberra/Australia
Posts: 1,995
Back in the 80s there was some excuse: very few users had any expansions, AmigaOS was lacking some functionality, Commodore's guidelines about writing compatible code weren't written, etc. But none of that applies anymore.

Yet we still keep seeing games and demos continue to be released which just guru without so much as an error message just because the coder has assumed everyone will be running with his exact configuration. Amiga userbase is small enough as it is without fragmenting it further with incompatible software. WHDLoad should only be needed for old programs, not new ones.

By the sounds of it, your game is more compatible than many other new programs, so this should not be read as an attack on your game, but rather as a general observation about many new Amiga game/demo releases.

Last edited by Minuous; 24 June 2019 at 07:19.
Minuous is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 09:52   #185
Steril707
Tigerskunk!

Steril707's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Amiga Island
Posts: 1,089
On the contrary though, Amiga game coding as it is is complicated enough.

I certainly won't go through the hassle and test my OCS game on every weird config imaginable.

I will test on vanilla A500, A1000, A1200 and A600. Since that's the machines I have at my disposal.
Steril707 is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 10:25   #186
Minuous
Coder/webmaster/gamer
Minuous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canberra/Australia
Posts: 1,995
So much for Commodore's recommendations on how to program the machine then, they will just be ignored and Amiga users will have compatibility issues, meanwhile on IBM-PC everything just works.
Minuous is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 12:26   #187
roondar
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,381
Forgive the partial off-topicness here, but I simply have to say this:

The idea that the PC doesn't have or didn't have compatibility problems is utterly absurd. Compatibility problems not only exist today (just visit any forum for any game and it'll be littered with complaints from people who can't play because of compatibility issues), but they also existed from day 1.

Games that wouldn't work because you didn't have the correct graphics card, sound card or MS-DOS/Windows version were extremely common. Many, many games both old and new can't handle faster machines. A whole bunch simply refuse to run, crash or sometimes even take down the entire machine if they're run on unexpected configurations. A frankly far too large segment of PC games lists which graphics cards/cpus you have to use for them to (probably) work. Usually that list is tiny and using anything else tends to lead to a "if it doesn't work, that's your problem for daring to use a different card/cpu" reaction from the developers if something goes wrong.

This problem is not unique to the Amiga. It exists in PC land/Mac land/Atari land as well. A one (or two) person coding 'team' simply can't be expected to fix something that even commercial parties with much bigger teams have failed at from day one (and still fail at today to some degree).

Richard very clearly points out what the tested systems are and a work around does exist for those who have problems. From my perspective, this is a total non-issue.

Last edited by roondar; 24 June 2019 at 12:33.
roondar is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 12:59   #188
mcgeezer
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Sunderland, England
Posts: 1,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Forgive the partial off-topicness here, but I simply have to say this:

The idea that the PC doesn't have or didn't have compatibility problems is utterly absurd. Compatibility problems not only exist today (just visit any forum for any game and it'll be littered with complaints from people who can't play because of compatibility issues), but they also existed from day 1.

Games that wouldn't work because you didn't have the correct graphics card, sound card or MS-DOS/Windows version were extremely common. Many, many games both old and new can't handle faster machines. A whole bunch simply refuse to run, crash or sometimes even take down the entire machine if they're run on unexpected configurations. A frankly far too large segment of PC games lists which graphics cards/cpus you have to use for them to (probably) work. Usually that list is tiny and using anything else tends to lead to a "if it doesn't work, that's your problem for daring to use a different card/cpu" reaction from the developers if something goes wrong.

This problem is not unique to the Amiga. It exists in PC land/Mac land/Atari land as well. A one (or two) person coding 'team' simply can't be expected to fix something that even commercial parties with much bigger teams have failed at from day one (and still fail at today to some degree).

Richard very clearly points out what the tested systems are and a work around does exist for those who have problems. From my perspective, this is a total non-issue.
Very very well said Roondar.
mcgeezer is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 13:23   #189
vulture
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Athens , Greece
Posts: 1,088
Yup, too much fuss over nothing. I mean, back at the MS-DOS days, you had to set EMS, XMS, IRQs and what-not to get some games to work properly. We're simply talking about a boot without startup-sequence here, a common practice every amiga user on the planet knows how to perform.
vulture is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 14:10   #190
TuKo
Apollo Team

TuKo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: not far
Posts: 270
For what it is worth, Reshoot-R works super on our current WIP Vampire V4 Standalone core ;-)

[ Show youtube player ]
TuKo is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 14:24   #191
Steril707
Tigerskunk!

Steril707's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Amiga Island
Posts: 1,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
So much for Commodore's recommendations on how to program the machine then, they will just be ignored and Amiga users will have compatibility issues, meanwhile on IBM-PC everything just works.
Well, then get an IBM PC and play your desired games there.

I will go on coding my games for the A500, which has the biggest userbase, anyway. And try to get it to work on my A1200 as well (which it already does anyway, apart from a small visual bug in the sprites)

If you created some monster config that's incompatible with classic Amigas, why complain to coders for missing compatibility?
Steril707 is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 15:20   #192
malko
Ex nihilo nihil

malko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: CH
Posts: 2,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
[...] If you created some monster config that's incompatible with classic Amigas, why complain to coders for missing compatibility?
Perhaps the feeling of perception is distorted since there has also been at the same time tougher exchanges concerning the trainer (?), but, even if some replies to replies were less "happy", I didn't understood the first post from @funk as a complain :
Quote:
Originally Posted by funK View Post
[...] I have to say that while playing on one of my 030 A1200s game runs smoothly and flawlessly, but on my 060 A1200 I got gfx corruptions and artifacts both in the title screen and during gameplay, too, which can get quite distracting: Richard, are those glitches known? Any chance you'll look into fixing them?
malko is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 20:52   #193
Puggsy
Banned

 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Toronto
Posts: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzybee View Post
RESHOOT R does NOT shut the system down. It uses the OS for memory management, loading and interrupt handling, and keeps all apps in memory unharmed.
[...]
To develop the game in a rather OS-compliant way makes sense, because it allowed me to run DPaint and other Amiga tools while quickly testing the game, quit, modify stuff, test the game again.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Puggsy is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 22:05   #194
mcgeezer
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Sunderland, England
Posts: 1,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puggsy View Post
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Howay man, give it a rest.
Richard is a nice guy who has spent years building the game. Give him a break.
mcgeezer is offline  
Old 24 June 2019, 22:22   #195
buzzybee
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Landsberg / Germany
Posts: 265
@McGeezer: I honestly don´t know what´s wrong with Puggsy. The game of this name is kind of nice, but this guy simply does not seem to know how to behave. I wonder if he ever coded or designed anything which qualifies him to comment on anything development-related. Guys like him just steal time and energy which could otherwise be used to do something – anything! - useful.

@Funk: Happy to mention it again: RESHOOT R should run perfectly fine with 060-cpu. I played through several times on my A1200 with Blizz1260-expansion, and saw it also run on other A1200 / 4000 configs with 060-cpu, without any glitches or artifacts. It´s really difficult to find out what goes wrong on your exact config, without having your Amiga next to me. From the distance, I presume a resident WB-launched app causing unusual interrupt behaviour. RESHOOT R uses OS-controlled interrupts, which – if used incorrectly by other apps - can cause pixel artifacts; I tested this and could reproduce such behaviour. If the game runs fine when you boot without startup-sequence, then resident WB-launched apps may be the cause. Which resident apps do you run; did you already disable these and see if the game runs fine then?

@tuko: It´s really great to see what you guys achieved since last october when we first tested RESHOOT R on Vampirs AGA-core and could hardly see anything, but visual glitches. Your AGA-emulation – if I may call it like this – is adorable. Congrats, amazing effort!
buzzybee is offline  
Old 25 June 2019, 07:20   #196
Overflow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 374
@Richard

So whats your next type of game? Sticking to the shoot-em up style, or got something else cooking?
Or taking a break after 2 games back to back?

I actually dont mind if you stick to the Shoot-em ups, since I see a nice improvement from Reshoot to Reshoot R.
So a new one will surely be even better (and Im already very happy with the quality as it is).

EDIT: And would be intresting to see if you could add features that would utilize Apollo spesific performance potential, but I realise that would add a certain level of workload/added work to accomodate.

I see Stefan "Bebbo" in active discussion regarding GCC Apollo features, altho I guess you are a pure ASM kinda guy

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4&note=21090
Overflow is offline  
Old 25 June 2019, 09:00   #197
buzzybee
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Landsberg / Germany
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overflow View Post
@Richard

So whats your next type of game? Sticking to the shoot-em up style, or got something else cooking?
Or taking a break after 2 games back to back?

I actually dont mind if you stick to the Shoot-em ups, since I see a nice improvement from Reshoot to Reshoot R.
So a new one will surely be even better (and Im already very happy with the quality as it is).

EDIT: And would be intresting to see if you could add features that would utilize Apollo spesific performance potential, but I realise that would add a certain level of workload/added work to accomodate.

I see Stefan "Bebbo" in active discussion regarding GCC Apollo features, altho I guess you are a pure ASM kinda guy

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4&note=21090
Let´s just say that there are one or two flaws in RESHOOT R which may or may not lead to a new iteration of a horizontal shmup game without these flaws :-)

Also, the engine would perfectly fit a Giana-type jump´n´run game, which is my second favorite genre on the Amiga.

Inbetween I am also working on a german translation of Sam Dyers amazing Amiga Commpendium; plus something else which will be announced soon and will be published at the big Amiga34 event held in october in the german city of Neuss.

So, lots of stuff going on ...
buzzybee is offline  
Old 25 June 2019, 09:32   #198
Steril707
Tigerskunk!

Steril707's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Amiga Island
Posts: 1,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by malko View Post
Perhaps the feeling of perception is distorted since there has also been at the same time tougher exchanges concerning the trainer (?), but, even if some replies to replies were less "happy", I didn't understood the first post from @funk as a complain :
It's all good.
I just want to point out that we are more or less bedroom coders, spending around a man year to create a game for a 35 years old home computer that will probably sell less than 100 pieces.

Don't expect us to spend another man year in QA, just because people have accumulated weird Frankenstein setups over the last decades.

I think Richard already went the extra mile testing his game on a lot of different configs, something which I wouldn't do, since for me my target platform is the A500+512k, and that's it.

(and like almost in every other part of the work, the Amiga is the most demanding retro platform here by far. You don't have these problems on almost any other platform, like the C64, Atari VCS, Vectrex, Amstrad CPC, Spectrum etc etc etc.)

Last edited by Steril707; 25 June 2019 at 09:38.
Steril707 is offline  
Old 25 June 2019, 09:39   #199
StingRay
move.l #$c0ff33,throat

StingRay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Berlin/Joymoney
Posts: 6,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
meanwhile on IBM-PC everything just works.

That's the best joke in years.
StingRay is offline  
Old 25 June 2019, 10:17   #200
buzzybee
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Landsberg / Germany
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by StingRay View Post
That's the best joke in years.
Absolutely. I remember very well my early years at Joker Verlag and how my colleagues from PC Joker magazines cursed just to get their Adlib soundcards and Gravis joysticks to work; while our team from Amiga Joker magazine inserted a disk and enjoyed gameplay.
buzzybee is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RESHOOT R in development buzzybee Amiga scene 239 05 June 2019 12:46
Reshoot-A modern Shoot´em-Up-Experience for Amiga Joe Maroni Amiga scene 213 24 July 2018 10:53
Flashtro releases Trainer for RESHOOT AGA incl. Autofire! warfalcon Amiga scene 24 06 November 2016 19:14
RESHOOT - A1200,4000 & CD³² - Pre-Order viddi News 156 30 September 2016 18:06
[Found: Shoot Out] Looking for an Amiga PD shoot em up ROYALPAVILLION Looking for a game name ? 3 04 July 2010 15:29

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.09582 seconds with 16 queries