Games intended for NTSC played on PAL machines

[Mister Octopus]

Hi all!

I've been having a discussion in the comments of a recent video on our YouTube channel about games designed for display on NTSC Amigas, and how the majority of screenshots, video footage and emulator defaults seem to always be in PAL format. The discussion has been around how playing games designed for NTSC on a PAL machine will distort the resolution (squished vertically) and slow down the sound/game, and how online media generally dispays these games "incorrectly".

I'm no expert on the matter-- growing up in New Zealand, I've only ever had PAL machines, so the way the games were displayed for me is the only way I've ever known. I've always noticed the big black bar at the bottom of a lot of games, but I always figured there was some nebulous reason for this (memory limitations, accommodating future ports to Atari, something).

The guy who brought it to my attention was the creator of [ Show youtube player ], and as far as I can tell his argument makes a lot of sense. He also mentioned a recent interview with Jim Sachs, the lead American artist from Defender Of The Crown, who basically choked up when he explained that everyone is displaying his work in the wrong format.

Does anyone have any particular insight to this issue? I'm keen to hear from anyone who has any direct knowledge about whether American / Japanese / NTSC Amiga game designers created their games with NTSC in mind, or whether they knew that the PAL format would distort their work (and designed their games accordingly). Is there a reason why emulators such as WinUAE seem to default to PAL? I'm also keen to hear anyone's opinions on this issue in general.

Did I fall in love with a slow version of The Faery Tale soundtrack? Was Shufflepuck Cafe always meant to be in 4:3? It'd be interesting to know if my memories are of "incorrect" versions of these games, and I'd love to be able to present these games in the correct format on our channel, so I'm interested to know what the general consensus is.

Thanks!

[mark_k]

Whether a game was created with NTSC machines in mind depends on the developer. You can usually make a pretty good guess though. European developer => probably developed on and for PAL machines.

Some games originally released for PAL machines were also sold in an NTSC version, e.g. various Psygnosis ones. With those the "PAL graphics" would be vertically stretched on an NTSC machine. It's very unlikely any developer redrew their graphics for the NTSC version. They may have adjusted the music tempo though.

I suggest you use a pixel aspect ratio of 6:7 (for low-res non-interlaced) for NTSC output. For PAL output most people will just assume square pixels, but a ratio of 26:25 would be more accurate.

It's very easy to get aspect ratio wrong when recording (emulated) gameplay. For example if you convert PAL Amiga pixels 1:1 encoding to 720x576 you'd stretch the PAL display slightly horizontally.

[Toni Wilen]

PAL is quite obvious default. "True" (*) NTSC programs are quite rare, practically all scene productions are designed for PAL machines and nearly all NTSC programs work in PAL mode (with wrong vertical size, possibly wrong speed, if it is vblank timed). Opposite is not always true. (Most common problem is hanging due to waiting for PAL-only vertical scanline position).

*) There are (too) many NTSC-like PAL games that only use NTSC display area, usually they are not NTSC compatible (wrong speed, possibly glitches or hangs)... Unfortunately black bar at the bottom of display does not prove anything. Also don't try to guess by looking at graphics elements ("This game seems to have perfectly round circle(s) in title screen when in NTSC mode, it must be NTSC game". It is not necessarily true.). The only way to be sure is to test it.

I don't remember any names (as usual) but there are games that have separate PAL and NTSC version but have identical graphics. (Bonus points if it has PAL/NTSC check that crashes/hangs the game if mode does not match)

[idrougge]

Just look at something which is supposed to be round or square (a moon, a sun…) and look if it looks round or oval.

[Retro1234]

interviews with the coders this question should be asked, ive always played in NTSC where possible. iirc DOTC looks better in NTSC and many games also look and feel better in NTSC - some games are maybe too fast or more challenging Speedball 2 Lotus 2 - other example Gods NTSC version the music plays slow on Pal and vice versa with most games.

[mark_k]

Here are some pictures by Jim Sachs. First the assume-pixels-are-square version (just scaled by 3×). On a PAL Amiga these images would be ~4% wider/shorter than they appear on your PC monitor.

Then the images scaled by 3× horizontally and 3.5× vertically, representing what they would look like on an NTSC Amiga.

(These and other pics are on Fish disk 30.)

[Mister Octopus]

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

Sounds like the issue isn't as black and white as I'd hoped. I think the most confusing thing for me is trying to determine which games were intended for true NTSC play. From what I'm reading, black bars at the bottom don't necessarily prove anything, and you kind of just have to make educated guesses based on the developer's home country / the shape of circles and faces in the artwork / whatever feels right. That leaves a lot of room to get it wrong, and to end up displaying a lot of games incorrectly in NTSC when they designed for PAL, and vice versa.

It's a shame there's not a field on HoL or Lemon Amiga or elsewhere that denotes whether the game is intended for PAL or true NTSC, as that could take out a lot of the guesswork.

[Retro1234]

The developer might have chosen the aspect ratio for game speed? or because they knew it would then be Sold/Used/worked on both PAL and NTSC? this aspect ratio that produces Black borders on Pal but not on NTSC was widely used its also in a screen position that worked on NTSC it could have been more centered I.e black boreder at top and bottom - this would look more centered on Pal but would have gone off screen on NTSC.

[Retro-Nerd]

Most likely to save CPU performance. Especially all the 1:1 ports from the ST.

[Amigajay]

Yeah the black borders on PAL games don't mean anything in relation to them either being NTSC originated or Atari ST ports, whilst some do, the only reason a lot of especially earlier Amiga games have borders is pure and simple to keep the game speed up.

It wasn't until dedicated Amiga games from companies like Team 17 that used overscan and displayed full screen on PAL, its today's world it would be hard to understand why a game wasn't full screen, but a lot of Amiga games weren't. And the reason why black bar PAL games still get cropped on NTSC machines is because the screen area is still centered and without NTSC code it will just cropped the bottom 96 lines off.

[Jope]

Past discussion:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=82100
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...7&postcount=21 (I didn't use the same ratios as mark_k, just made the NTSC image 4:3)

I must say after this I started playing the known NTSC games in NTSC mode. I was surprised that for example Marble Madness runs 60fps on the Amiga when run in NTSC! The arcade game itself was only 30fps. :-D

[Amigajay]

For sure i think imo its only worth running games in NTSC if they were only designed for NTSC to begin with, so early EA/Accolade and other American titles, trying to run PAL games in NTSC in a lot of cases results in some gfx problems, screen cut offs and either the game being too fast for what it was designed for and the music being played too fast.

But I agree its best to play NTSC games in NTSC where possible though, and will be looking to use NTSC options in my future CD32 compilations.

[Retro-Nerd]

Though it would be interesting to know if a Turrican II could have run in smooth 50fps in PAL overscan on a plain A500. I mean with the same amount of sprites/animations.

[Jope]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

For sure i think imo its only worth running games in NTSC if they were only designed for NTSC to begin with, so early EA/Accolade and other American titles, trying to run PAL games in NTSC in a lot of cases results in some gfx problems, screen cut offs and either the game being too fast for what it was designed for and the music being played too fast.

Exactly. If it was designed in Europe, then it is not an NTSC game regardless of the visible window size.

[Retro1234]

Why was it not centered then and if the games wernt intended for both this would have made the games market in US tiny - Lotus 2 US isnt different in any way is it? the sound is even to fast on US version - just the Europe version cracked by the company.

Europe was the biggest market but just becasue you didnt play in NTSC dont assume the games wernt intended for both markets. Europe games made there way to US and were played without problems.

[Jope]

If they were designed in Europe, they were meant to seen as on the designer's machine.

Naturally if it was some ST port and the picture got squashed, then in that case the graphics are no longer as intended, but the music still usually is. :-)

[Shot97]

Wish you guys would let the guy making the video know you're whispering behind his back. :P I would be proud for anyone here to comment on my video, positive or negative, and link the thread. It would also give a guy who spent quite a lot of time/energy, and indeed love on the topic feel like it's not all for nothing.

Thanks for the overall kinder comments vs Lemon, although I have indeed seen previous discussions of my videos here, kind it has not always been. Sadly that's the main reason I do not frequent forums much. You might notice this account was created quite a long time ago, yet I've never posted here. It can be quite hard for the passion/love of this particular topic not to make some feel there's an arrogance there, to fight back for the things they remember, and to dismiss all evidence presented to them.

If I come off like an asshole, apologies. I can't say I regret anything about those videos though. I can't guarantee anybody will enjoy a video of mine, but I can make one guarantee most others can't, and that is that I never uploaded a single video I did not want to watch. Not that I love myself, but if that topic/game had been done in the exact same way by someone else I would have sat through the entire thing. I can do that with my videos. I do them for me, not a single soul else, I'm not looking to become big, I know that would destroy the quality quite honestly. I do them in case I lose my mind and forget everything, then I have these videos to remember video games that truly effected my life.

I feel those here and on Lemon do not appreciate the wealth of American games. As stated here, there is no proper database for country origins, those that claim numbers do not know what they are talking about. I was here then, I saw the games, and I'm telling all of you I could review only American Amiga games for the rest of my life and I wold have plenty of material to work with. Not just "material" mind you, but good material. American games were often top notch titles, unforgettable titles, hall of fame worthy titles... Take out of the equation European budget titles and America is nothing to laugh about with the Amiga.

The only reason you don't see more of an American presence on YouTube and forums is frankly because the market was utterly different. Something never discussed... American Amiga users were 20-40 years old back then, computer hobbyists, artists, creative types... Intelligent people that made money. They bought the machines... Quite a bit more than a lot of people give credit for. I'd be bold enough to say more Amigas were sold here than anywhere other than Germany. And not just Amiga 500's, practically all 2000's and 3000's (200,000 Amiga 3000's sold in America, almost none anywhere else) were sold. Hard drives were huge add on devices here, we all bought the 1mb expansion and some much more.

The people who bought the Amiga in America back then are now 50-70 years old... They're just not here everyone... It does not mean they didn't love the Amiga just as much as anyone else in the world. It just means they got other things they're busy with.

In Europe, it was utterly different. The people making videos for the Amiga and talking on these forums were primarily children when the Amiga was new. Now in there late 20's to mid 30's... Perfect age to be on YouTube and share their passions.

Guys I've seen this computer described as a European creation... I've heard talk about stupid American's that didn't "get it" and how messed up Commodore was in not selling that thing at Toys R Us like in Europe... This all comes from a strong misunderstanding of the two markets. Kids had the NES here, there was no need for platformers on the Amiga in America. There was no way Commodore could have stood a chance against the consoles... and in all honesty, despite lots of Amiga love out there, all consoles destroyed the Amgia in terms of sales everywhere in the world, even the NES.

I've researched it all very heavily... Spent way more time than I care to admit doing that... I just wish for my love to be validated... It has not been. All I get is people dismissing America and saying without any proof what so ever that almost all games were made in Europe... That NTSC games are soo small in number... That's not love... It's not... And it's not backed by any facts OR personal experience. It hurts quite honestly.

Most NTSC games work perfectly fine in PAL mode, other than the speed slowing down and the pictures being stretched into widescreen. Many PAL games will freeze up on an NTSC machine... So for compatibility you guys won, WinUAE and all Amiga emulators default to PAL mode.

If the opposite was true... If no NTSC games would run in PAL mode, this dismissal of American content would end right away. There's wonderful games out there guys, real men and women were behind them...

Artists... And that's where I come from... When I saw Jim Sachs nearly cry over NOBODY showing his games right I did cry... I did... That's love... These games are art... If any of you disagree why are you here talking about games and systems made so long ago? You all must believe this is art...If you do, then please...as Jim said... Just consider it... Just consider what the artist meant for you to see, research... If you try it yourself you'll never go back.

I'm not here to dismiss all European games, I'm not here to say forget about PAL mode... Perhaps I went a little strong in the videos, it's simply because there is enough footage of all these games, European and American shown how Europeans saw them... There is no footage showing these games how American's saw them... If I made those videos with "if this than do this, if that than do this" I would have lost everyone. Too much effort. I know there are a lot of PAL games, most of you out there do not know there are a lot of NTSC games. When we're dead, when anyone who had every used the Amiga is gone... This will be all that's left... These writings and these videos and screenshots... They're all wrong when concerning America games, all of them... I am, at this moment, very sorry to say, the only person showing American games correctly as the designers intended you to see them.

That's how I define "correct". It's not because I remember the games in 4:3, it is because the designers of these games played them in 4:3. It's not an opinion, it is a fact, those games were meant to be played in NTSC mode.

I thank my friend, the gentleman octopus for bringing this to you all. I'm a member here, I could have done it myself, I'm not here to whore myself out though. I have a point to make, I hope I'll find a few that will want to come aboard along the way... But what I said deserves to be seen, like me or not. It's a big problem and sadly it's just not discussed enough. Discuss it more please, make a real list, do some real research, and then say how much more important Europe was.

I'll make another post about things like "circles" and stuff, spoiler alert guys, circles do not mean anything when it comes to the Amiga. And I can prove it.

[Shot97]

So, now that I have gotten my passions/reasons for being here out of the way, let's discuss in shorter terms for the great many people who wish to make judgments on my content without actually watching it, the whole PAL/NTSC issue...

With the Amiga, for a good change, Europeans actually got respected with games. It did not really happen with any other system not designed in Europe. You guys almost always got a hand me down from America/Japan and it would often times run slower and look wrong. It's true for a great many of machines, most of which default into NTSC mode because they don't care how Europeans saw it, not enough games were made to justify defaulting to PAL mode for most emulators. With the Amiga, and also the C64, people cared.

That's a good thing. There were people in Europe back in the day who knew they were getting screwed with games all over and they had shops they could go to in order to make switches to make their machines go into NTSC mode so they could see these games how they were meant to be seen.

My problem is there is an utterly dismissal of American content to the point where people simply do not believe this machine sold anything in America and even the C64 they want to think is this European marvel despite selling millions in America. Yeah, the same problem exists for the C64, all NTSC games (A whole hell of a lot of them) are being shown incorrectly.

Please stop quoting correctly and incorrectly. This is not spoken from my viewpoint, as an opinion. A game made in America on a C64 or Amiga was only ever intended to be seen in NTSC mode. In fact I doubt there was ever a minor consideration for the European market for most of the games. I read an interview with I believe Sierra saying how important the Amiga was to them, that they were selling more Amiga copies than DOS copies for this particular game. I also saw an interview with Sierra that said as early as 1988 that they were considering not selling anything in Europe. Why? Piracy. It was so bad they felt it was not worth releasing their stuff there... Well... If the Amiga is important to Sierra yet they don't wish to sell anything in Europe, simple logic means American Amiga users were the important ones to them.

Piracy was huge in Europe. I utterly understand this and make no judgments on those of you who stole games. I do wish you would all acknowledge games were stolen though... Then factor the importance of a huge chunk of Europe stealing games VS however size the American's were mostly buying those games because that market could afford them... Not only games... But software... Pro Write, Excellence, Deluxe Paint, Video Toaster, Deluxe Music... Hundreds and hundreds of software costing $100-$1,0000 were designed and sold in America. Even if it was not the biggest market, America was most certainly WAAAY more important than most people online give it credit for, without a doubt.

So we didn't have any demos... It was not our thing. We did however create a great deal of very intricate simulations/strategy/RPGs/and Adventure games. Some were American though and through, like The Fairy Tale Adventure, landmark game not talked about enough... Like Defender of the Crown and all Cinemware games. Like Might and Magic II, the best of all versions of that game. Like completely redone for the Amiga Bard's Tale games. Like Might and Magic III, coming out in 1993, made by New World themselves. Like Monkey Island and Monkey Island 2 made by Lucas Arts themselves for the Amiga. I hope just those brief little titles and the magnitude of them will make it clear these are not throw away titles.

Besides those original Amiga games ports made from other machines by the very own company... Are there other reasons for playing in NTSC mode when maybe the game had not been designed in America? Yes. Ports. All day everyday. All Gold Box games were ported to the Amiga, some of the best sellers of all time for computers... The ports were handled by a European country, by the artwork assets were 100% NTSC. Civilization, a Microprose game... Made in America for DOS, given to Microprose UK for the Amiga version, all artwork 100% based off the DOS version... Those games should be played in NTSC mode. Wing Commander, quite a story with how that game came to be on the Amiga... Pretty much just one man in the UK did it, all artwork was based on the NTSC version, and it plays like a dog in PAL mode... It's meant to be seen in NTSC because the original artists saw it that way.

If you take the time to watch my videos I do go into the "circle argument" in both videos. I show how Deluxe Paint, an American creation from Electronic Arts, never had a perfect circle in NTSC mode. Guys, programmers... They're not artists, they're closer to mathematicians. Dan Silva was thinking a perfect circle based on 320x200, he forgot to look at the damn thing. So, even a 100% Amiga original game will have circles shown wrong in NTSC mode but right in PAL mode. Circles do not mean anything. I go into greater detail in the second video where I show a real VHS 4:3 tape made back in the day showing off Deluxe Paint III, which ONLY had an NTSC mode. There was no PAL mode. So actually, the reason so many European games were made with those black bars is because they were running Deluxe Paint, there was no support for PAL mode. Anyway, I show off this how to tape where the circles are quite obviously not quite right. Everything else was though.

I show a comparison with Test Drive II in PAL and NTSC modes, running super playable in NTSC mode and showing the Ferrari F40 in perfect dimensions... except the wheels... Because circles didn't show up right in NTSC mode in Deluxe Paint. I really wish this circle thing would stop being discussed because there's so much more to art than a circle. Yes, you want to discuss TV shows, look at the circles... Amiga games? Please find something else to judge what mode it should be in with. When the very best artist can not hand draw a perfect circle, maybe circles don't mean everything when it comes to art?

There are NTSC games out there. A great many of them. How many of you are interested in them? I'm not quite sure. A great game like Lost Dutchman Mine gets almost no credit these days, it was reviews pretty harshly by European magazines, yet I think it's a brilliant American game. But I know there's others you do like... You guys love Monkey Island, also... That's American guys... For the most part new reviews I see on YouTube are of budget platforming games... I'm not into them... Maybe you guys eat them up and hate our stuff... Okay, but please understand the two markets were very different... and let me just say for anyone that thinks I'm a bastard, I watch FAR more videos than I make. I started making videos so I could say this stuff and have people connect a face with it. So I wouldn't be looked at as some bastard troll... I presented myself for all to see, I showed my face and body... How many of you have done that? How many of you believe that strongly in your opinions that you're willing to get up in front an entire world and say something that at first sounds like conspiracy theories... I come up here and claim all American Amiga games are shown wrong... Not some... Not most... ALL.

That will not win me many friends. To tell everyone who has put time/love/effort into their own writings and videos that what they have shown is wrong... Like... No... I don't feel very popular... I do, however, feel I'm the only one that was willing to stand up and get shot at. That eventualy, a few more people will come my way... If an LGR did those two videos, things would change.

I went right to Moby.... I went right to the Hall of Light... Rather than bitch that everyone is showing them wrong... I emailed them both corrected screenshots... Hall of Light did not care enough to even return my email... I've got things like the American disk cover for World Circuit (F1GP in Europe) which they do not have. And they don't want to talk to me... Yeah, they care about history... Moby did reply... And defended all of their screenshots. I had screenshots from the actual Amiga everyone. I used a program from my real Amiga to take these screenshots. No emulator can match that quality. It does things like get the pallet 100% correct, which allowed me to say SimCity 1MB RAM version uses 64 color EHB mode. If I search for that topic I will come to this very forum with people denying that... Despite the fact that is also says it right in the manual...Which I guess nobody has because they may not have bought it.

I'm not a troll in the comments of a YouTube video or forum bitching at everyone... I'm a real person putting myself out there... and I'm not just bitching, I"m trying to get things done. I gave my screenshots to HOL and Moby, you have no idea how crushing it was to take that time and be ignored and turned down. I gave them the short version, I gave them the long version, there are still far too many people out there who give NTSC games zero credit. I make video game reviews, I try my best to show them the original way intended unless there's a good reason not to.

For example, I did a review of World Circuit which is Formula One Grand Prix in Europe. America mattered enough to Microprose that they changed the name... A different title screen, 200 page manual where every page has the title on it... Floppy Disk covers... Anyway Geoff Crammond designed that game mostly by himself and it's European in 320x200, meant to be seen in widescreen.... But it plays like a dog on an Amiga 500 and it's 100% playable in NTSC mode... So I played in NTSC mode... But I also showed a comparison and told everyone what they are seeing is not how Geoff would have wanted you to see it. I also noted that "World Circuit" which was always said in quotes, was ONLY seen in NTSC mode... Because in the rest of the world it was called F1GP. So the only proper way to show "World Circuit" is in NTSC mode despite being designed in Europe. I gave those reasons why I did it, and I also showed it the right way.

I'm trying... I research these games far more heavily than Wikipedia... Look... If nostalgia means that much to you... If you love those squished heads, go for it... I just would like it to be on all of your minds... Maybe one day you'll try it out... Maybe try every game period in both modes just to see which one you like more... Because I do believe anyone playing these NTSC games correctly in NTSC mode will never go back to PAL mode once they see it themselves.

I'm not here today to give all my facts, look, you might think those videos are boring, but if you watch it through I give my evidence... Thanks again to anyone who read any of this, thank you for considering what artists like Jim meant you to see. I love Defender of the Crown... That scene with the woman... That's art... Through and through. That's the Amiga's Mono Lisa as it were, I just wish I was not the only one who cared enough to show it right. And please, understand what my definitions of right and wrong are. I get far too many negative comments about how a European might look at the same stuff I do and think he's "right" or how he remembered is "correct"... The designer, American or European, or Japanese even, a lot of those arcade ports regardless of country of origin should be in NTSC mode because Japan is an NTSC country. The designers of these games designed them on their computer... Maybe they should about the other countries, maybe not, but the "correct" way to show those games is how the designer wanted you to see them. The original designer.

That's me. I've said my peace. Thank you all for reading. I truly hope I don't read as much like an asshole as I sound... I feel like I have to speak up in my videos. I'm much calmer in my early videos and I feel you can't hear me. Side effect, I sound pissed when I raise my voice. If you like reading and you don't hate me too much, I write very intricate reviews of all the Amiga games I cover on my YouTube channel. I don't post them to whore them out, I believe them to be different things and people would get something different from both. Right now I only post those to one very small forum called Amiga Love. It's a different perspective, it's American, I was there back in the day, I have insights you don't seem to see too much... I "could" be here and post things... If I'm wanted... If not, just say so, you won't ever hear from me again.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by Shot97

I'd be bold enough to say more Amigas were sold here than anywhere other than Germany. And not just Amiga 500's, practically all 2000's and 3000's (200,000 Amiga 3000's sold in America, almost none anywhere else) were sold. Hard drives were huge add on devices here, we all bought the 1mb expansion and some much more.

Not according to this and other sales charts;
http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/sales.html

Which put Germany at 1.7 million, the UK was known to be ahead of at that point, Commodore UK was the last to go under with an estimated 1.9-2 million units sold, the US sales had long dropped off the cliff by 1993 so that 700,000 is probably close to the mark, with Italy probably in a close 3rd with the US I'd say, but because most of the total sales were in Europe, probably around 5 million its seen more of a European machine, we all know it isn't of course.

Anyway, I'd say take a chill pill, i think its something that's been annoying you for a long time by the sounds! I understand when people don't 'get' you when you try to outline something.

As i said above, games that originated in the US should be played in NTSC if they work in Europe, and PAL games should be played in PAL, i think some of your comments don't help your little rant like games 'playing like a dog' in PAL and mysteriously becoming 100% playable in NTSC just by being 17.5% faster, sorry, these games (Test Drive 2, Wing Commander) are still slow on both PAL and NTSC, they don't become '100% playable' don't make out they do!

I agree of course there were hundreds of good American games, i think the thing that sticks with most people is because a lot of these were in the 'earlier' Amiga years they tend to get forgotten and the games written later on and used the Amiga hardware more get remembered, that's just the way things are sometimes. But companies like Lucasfilm, Cinemaware, EA, Microprose and many more are well remembered for many great Amiga games, i think you maybe a looking a little too hard at the situation regarding what people think, take it on the chin, we all love the Amiga, the history sometimes gets blurred, but the proof is out there!

[Shot97]

http://amigalove.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=45

For all of your sale figures, I got mine. I didn't write that by the way, and it actually gives American sales more credit than I would even give them, I give them a million, more than enough to justify meaning a great deal when those expensive games and software were bought, not stolen. Not trying to make judgments, just, it's an important fact.

Sales numbers are very hard to find, but when Pool of Radiance, a Computer Gaming World hall of fame game, can boast on the cover how they sold "200,000" copies, and that would be in all platforms period... You suddenly realize how much smaller the computer market was compared to the NES which could sell millions for one game. You suddenly understand that American's, much older, a lot more money, those million people meant a whole hell of a lot.