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Old 21 October 2017, 17:27   #41
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Sociable Soccer is available on Steam. Anyway, as i said. Rabah won't get 1000 supporters for an Amiga game, or this PC port whatever. Maybe 50-100, that's all. It's a waste of time to create a Kickstarter campaign.

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Old 21 October 2017, 18:43   #42
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Not too familiar with Kickstarter but what happens if the project is cancelled? Are the funds held safe until the project is finished then given to the developer when its distributed? What happened to the backers of all those failed kickstarters like the one mentioned above?
I dont mind backing it as long as we definitely get the game at the end of it.

Would be so much better if it got released through something like Protovision. The C64s home brew scene really has its act together compared to the Amigas!

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Old 21 October 2017, 18:46   #43
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Yes, you get you money back if the campaign fails. Unlike on other platforms like Indiegogo (e.g. the Atari Box scam).
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Old 21 October 2017, 18:57   #44
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Yes, you get you money back if the campaign fails. Unlike on other platforms like Indiegogo (e.g. the Atari Box scam).
That's encouraging. The only thing I was ever worried about was losing any money put down on it.

Has anyone else heard from Rabah yet?
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Old 21 October 2017, 20:56   #45
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Not too familiar with Kickstarter but what happens if the project is cancelled?
Project or campaign?

During the 30(?) days campaign process you aren't charged anything until the end of the period if the campaign passes the funding goal. Not reaching its goal means nothing happens - author is free to try another kickstarter with better objectives and perks, or lower the funding goal.

If the project falls apart after the project owner has got your money (yes, there have been several rather (in)famous occurences of that) then you have lost your money and probably have nothing to show for it.
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Old 22 October 2017, 04:57   #46
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The only reason it got a mobile release is because he put the effort into making it. A lot more effort than anyone put into writing some posts on a forum. I think we're getting a bit big for our boots if we think EAB takes bigger credit than the actual author and gets to demand terms about what he does with his work. 'Discovering' something on YouTube isn't exactly Raiders of the Lost Ark and signing up for an EAB account didn't commit him to diddly squat.
Well said. However, he could've written a few lines to let us know what was happening.
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Old 22 October 2017, 10:47   #47
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The only reason it got a mobile release is because he put the effort into making it.
No. The only reason it got a mobile release is because he saw the reaction to the Amiga demo 20 years later, he made no efforts to do a mobile release until that point.

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A lot more effort than anyone put into writing some posts on a forum. I think we're getting a bit big for our boots if we think EAB takes bigger credit than the actual author and gets to demand terms about what he does with his work. 'Discovering' something on YouTube isn't exactly Raiders of the Lost Ark
Maybe so, but again, until he saw the reaction to the Amiga demo on youtube, there were NO plans to make a mobile version of the game. I think you entirely miss the influence the reaction here had. And I don't think its right to suggest we were "too big for our boots", EAB is one of the biggest and possibly most productive Amiga boards on the internet, bar none!

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and signing up for an EAB account didn't commit him to diddly squat.
His promises sure should have counted for something though eh?

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I haven't changed my opinion, sorry. He said he was going to release it earlier and he changed his mind. It happens.
The decent thing would have been to say something, don't you agree?

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Maybe he was on a downer about not covering his living expenses and realising his dream of being a full-time games developer (which you disbelieve, but really, how would you know?)
Because the evidence is out there that the game made money, you don't persist with a product for TEN YEARS if there is no financial incentive to do so.

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I feel his email was pretty honest about his financial motivation behind all this. Back it or don't back it (I'm not sure) but as I said, this anger is way OTT.
Its really not. He promised to release before, and then just dissapeared instead of responding to genuine questions from people wanting to BUY it.

And then ten years later he shows up with making more promises to release the Amiga version, but again, can't have it until the other versions are realised first.

Sorry, but my opinion hasn't changed. He has proven himself untrustworthy, and yet you are going to blindly accept that he really means it this time and the release is imminent???

I note that inspite of peoples attempts to contact him since he re-appeared, no-one has been successful so far. That's encouraging!

Irrespective whether its his game or not, business 101, you simply do not piss off a rather small and vocal customer base by acting like this.
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Old 22 October 2017, 13:16   #48
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I note that inspite of peoples attempts to contact him since he re-appeared, no-one has been successful so far. That's encouraging!
He contacted me regarding this EAB thread. i gave him the link so he can respond to the discussion. I don't know why that hasn't happened yet? Bit odd.
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Old 22 October 2017, 18:12   #49
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Personally, I think the guy's got bloody cheek to come back to the Amiga community 10 years after we publicised his game.
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In short: I'm with Codetapper and all the others expressing similar views. **** them.
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Hey Rabah, I hope you are reading this, so here's my message to you: screw you and your lack of respect for the people who kept you fed for quite some time.
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He contacted me regarding this EAB thread. i gave him the link so he can respond to the discussion. I don't know why that hasn't happened yet? Bit odd.
Hmmm, I've been wondering about this myself...
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Old 22 October 2017, 22:46   #50
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Hmmm, I've been wondering about this myself...
I think if the discourse was toned back a bit (justified or not) then the guy might come in for a chat?

Ater hearing him out about the project and possibly getting some answers about what happened beforehand we could then decide?

...is that too unreasonable?

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Old 23 October 2017, 01:19   #51
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I think if the discourse was toned back a bit (justified or not) then the guy might come in for a chat?
I really doubt it but would love to be proved wrong

Guys, read all the old threads here, earliest --> latest.

EAB was very supportive / excited / helped spread the word across the Amiga world. The finished Amiga version has been promised numerous times over a decade now and we have always been happy to pay for this.

...unfortunately it's been broken promise after broken promise from Rabah's side

Not to mention, every other platform version being created ever since (that no Amiga user really cares about). Take this latest Kickstarter campaign, Amiga users targeted but it talks about a PC version etc.
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Old 23 October 2017, 01:53   #52
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Thanks everyone in this group, whether you are happy or angry the fact that you are here discussing my game means something to me. Special thanks to those of you who showed empathy, understanding and avoided throwing judgements.

As you might already noticed, I am not an online forum guy, in fact, this is the 3rd time I register in this forum because I keep loosing my username for lack of activity. However, I wanted to post this to clarify my position and erase some of the anger.

The main reason I wasn't very responsive over the last 7 years is that I was mostly a full-time entrepreneur and a father of three. I also didn't have much good news to share. Although I was able to raise money and dedicate time to work on Babylonian Twins' ports, I didn't have the resources, the fresh Amiga skills, and, most importantly, the financial feasibility to work on an Amiga version that will give the game what it deserves. My hope over these years was to make enough money from the ports to spend time on the Amiga version, but unfortunately that didn't happen. The vast majority of downloads on mobile were free or pirated.

Having said that, I did respond to many of you over emails, especially to those who reached out politely. I also received some emails that looked more like threats with an ultimatum which made me distance myself from the whole Amiga version! My apology if that resulted in not answering some of the good folks too.

As I explained in the mailing list, like most indie developers, part of my motivation for developing the game (and ports) was financial. And by financial I mean the game needs to at least cover its cost. Without raising some money I wouldn't be able to do the mobile ports either. I don't remember ever making a promise for a free Amiga release and I believe I still have that right. Having said that, I really wish there was a way to give the game for free to those of you who were truly supportive and understanding.

So what changed now?

I recently received multiple genuine requests by some members of the community who offered their help in releasing the Amiga version, and because it just happened that I now have some bandwidth to dedicate to this project, I thought about entertaining the Kickstarter idea.

Why Kickstarter?

There are many reasons, apart from it being suggested by some folks here before. Kickstarter is a great way to guarantee there is enough demand (through fund) before investing time and resources. There is also no risk involved since everyone will get his money back if the campaign fails. Kickstarter is also a great marketing platform which will help expanding the reach.

Although Babylonian Twins is complete, the last time I tested it in full was in the early 90s, and I only tested it on A500 and a bit on my friend's A1200. So the game will need some more testing, and possibly some difficulty tweaking (as I remember, it was a very hard to complete in full, which I personally find fun but others might not). Also, because it is a special project for me personally, I would like to give its release/packaging enough thought and quality.

Finally, I feel that a true retro/pixelated version will have more appeal on other platforms too as I see this is becoming a trend among modern indie games. It might be this version that will finally cover the costs.

I hope this gives more context and addresses some of your questions and speculations.

Thanks
 
Old 23 October 2017, 02:16   #53
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Thanks everyone in this group, whether you are happy or angry the fact that you are here discussing my game means something to me. Special thanks to those of you who showed empathy, understanding and avoided throwing judgements.

As you might already noticed, I am not an online forum guy, in fact, this is the 3rd time I register in this forum because I keep loosing my username for lack of activity. However, I wanted to post this to clarify my position and erase some of the anger.

The main reason I wasn't very responsive over the last 7 years is that I was mostly a full-time entrepreneur and a father of three. I also didn't have much good news to share. Although I was able to raise money and dedicate time to work on Babylonian Twins' ports, I didn't have the resources, the fresh Amiga skills, and, most importantly, the financial feasibility to work on an Amiga version that will give the game what it deserves. My hope over these years was to make enough money from the ports to spend time on the Amiga version, but unfortunately that didn't happen. The vast majority of downloads on mobile were free or pirated.

Having said that, I did respond to many of you over emails, especially to those who reached out politely. I also received some emails that looked more like threats with an ultimatum which made me distance myself from the whole Amiga version! My apology if that resulted in not answering some of the good folks too.

As I explained in the mailing list, like most indie developers, part of my motivation for developing the game (and ports) was financial. And by financial I mean the game needs to at least cover its cost. Without raising some money I wouldn't be able to do the mobile ports either. I don't remember ever making a promise for a free Amiga release and I believe I still have that right. Having said that, I really wish there was a way to give the game for free to those of you who were truly supportive and understanding.

So what changed now?

I recently received multiple genuine requests by some members of the community who offered their help in releasing the Amiga version, and because it just happened that I now have some bandwidth to dedicate to this project, I thought about entertaining the Kickstarter idea.

Why Kickstarter?

There are many reasons, apart from it being suggested by some folks here before. Kickstarter is a great way to guarantee there is enough demand (through fund) before investing time and resources. There is also no risk involved since everyone will get his money back if the campaign fails. Kickstarter is also a great marketing platform which will help expanding the reach.

Although Babylonian Twins is complete, the last time I tested it in full was in the early 90s, and I only tested it on A500 and a bit on my friend's A1200. So the game will need some more testing, and possibly some difficulty tweaking (as I remember, it was a very hard to complete in full, which I personally find fun but others might not). Also, because it is a special project for me personally, I would like to give its release/packaging enough thought and quality.

Finally, I feel that a true retro/pixelated version will have more appeal on other platforms too as I see this is becoming a trend among modern indie games. It might be this version that will finally cover the costs.

I hope this gives more context and addresses some of your questions and speculations.

Thanks
Thanks for taking the time to come here and clarify a few details, however, I think being completely honest is paramount.

1). No-one expected Babylonian Twins for free, not ten years ago, and not today. The problem people have is the interest in Babylonian Twins Amiga was at its height, TEN YEARS ago, and that would have been the time to release it.

2). However, your post today suggests that whilst you completed Babylonian Twins back in the 90's, you've not tested it since then, which means that the complete Amiga version may or may not actually work/exist anymore?

3). I know you had offers of help several times from several people, you chose to not take those people up on their offer, which is your right. A shame then that you didn't bother to reply either.

4). I'm unsure what you mean by this: the fresh Amiga skills, and, most importantly, the financial feasibility to work on an Amiga version that will give the game what it deserves. My hope over these years was to make enough money from the ports to spend time on the Amiga version, but unfortunately that didn't happen.

It sounds as if the Amiga version is in fact not complete at all?

I do appreciate you coming here to explain details, but instead of Codetapper posting up your mailshot email, it really should have been YOU coming here in the first instance and letting people know what happened.

I really hope Amiga Babylonian Twins finally becomes a reality, more than anything it would be an utter waste to see your games potential just be frittered away, but I think you need to work on your communication with the Amiga community, and I really think you need to rethink using Kickstarter as your method of raising funds for this project, because far bigger and better publicised projects have failed to reach even their minimum goals.

Rebuild some of the trust you've lost with people (and i'm sad to say, you have), and maybe you can get the help you need, and everyone wins, including you.

The longer it takes Babylonian Twins to be released on Amiga, the smaller the market is going to get for you.

Might I make a suggestion?

Release a 1 level demo, that way, it can be tested on all manner of different Amiga hardware, that way you can get relevant bug reports so you can apply fixes to your code, because i'm pretty sure, you've never tried to run your game code on 030/040/060 processors, which a lot of people nowadays have.

And theres plenty of talented guys that can offer meaningful suggestions on what fixes are needed.

Give it some thought
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Old 23 October 2017, 03:59   #54
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Thanks everyone in this group, whether you are happy or angry the fact that you are here discussing my game means something to me. Special thanks to those of you who showed empathy, understanding and avoided throwing judgements.

As you might already noticed, I am not an online forum guy, in fact, this is the 3rd time I register in this forum because I keep loosing my username for lack of activity. However, I wanted to post this to clarify my position and erase some of the anger.

The main reason I wasn't very responsive over the last 7 years is that I was mostly a full-time entrepreneur and a father of three. I also didn't have much good news to share. Although I was able to raise money and dedicate time to work on Babylonian Twins' ports, I didn't have the resources, the fresh Amiga skills, and, most importantly, the financial feasibility to work on an Amiga version that will give the game what it deserves. My hope over these years was to make enough money from the ports to spend time on the Amiga version, but unfortunately that didn't happen. The vast majority of downloads on mobile were free or pirated.

Having said that, I did respond to many of you over emails, especially to those who reached out politely. I also received some emails that looked more like threats with an ultimatum which made me distance myself from the whole Amiga version! My apology if that resulted in not answering some of the good folks too.

As I explained in the mailing list, like most indie developers, part of my motivation for developing the game (and ports) was financial. And by financial I mean the game needs to at least cover its cost. Without raising some money I wouldn't be able to do the mobile ports either. I don't remember ever making a promise for a free Amiga release and I believe I still have that right. Having said that, I really wish there was a way to give the game for free to those of you who were truly supportive and understanding.

So what changed now?

I recently received multiple genuine requests by some members of the community who offered their help in releasing the Amiga version, and because it just happened that I now have some bandwidth to dedicate to this project, I thought about entertaining the Kickstarter idea.

Why Kickstarter?

There are many reasons, apart from it being suggested by some folks here before. Kickstarter is a great way to guarantee there is enough demand (through fund) before investing time and resources. There is also no risk involved since everyone will get his money back if the campaign fails. Kickstarter is also a great marketing platform which will help expanding the reach.

Although Babylonian Twins is complete, the last time I tested it in full was in the early 90s, and I only tested it on A500 and a bit on my friend's A1200. So the game will need some more testing, and possibly some difficulty tweaking (as I remember, it was a very hard to complete in full, which I personally find fun but others might not). Also, because it is a special project for me personally, I would like to give its release/packaging enough thought and quality.

Finally, I feel that a true retro/pixelated version will have more appeal on other platforms too as I see this is becoming a trend among modern indie games. It might be this version that will finally cover the costs.

I hope this gives more context and addresses some of your questions and speculations.

Thanks
Welcome Rabah. Glad you made it over. I really hope the back and forth you had with Galahad will help move this game closer to release. Some polite and productive discourse.

Ive chatted enough with you over the last few days via email so you know where I'm coming from. I'll just finish by saying you got my support.

Good luck and lets make Babylonian Twins a reality on the Amiga

P.s You make some good suggestions there Galahad, especially regarding the demo.
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Old 23 October 2017, 09:23   #55
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@btwins: Thanks for your reply! For a start I'd say it's a good step you came forward and shared your point of view and story (without engaging with the most insulting comments here). I think many of us appreciate this!

Regarding the game, Galahad has indeed made some good points. A demo would definitely be helpful to test it. This can also be used to boost up some interest and get people (beyond EAB) to share and try it for themselves.

About technical help or gameplay feedback there are many trustworthy individuals in the community that can give you a hand or advice in order to polish the game.

Now, regarding Kickstarter and the 1000 people goal, I'd have to agree with the general consensus. No Amiga game has ever managed to be successfully funded via kickstarter (or similar croudfunding means) and the customer base is currently not that large to even reach this number of sales. However some new games released over the last 5 years have managed to sell around 500 copies, so that could be a good (while quite optimistic) end-goal for you as well.

Since the game is (as you say) ready and you don't have to cover for any extra development expenses, best course of action would be to just release it as soon as you can with an option for a digital download. For physical copies the scene has a few publishers that could also help if you cannot fund or organise this on your own. Generally, going directly for a release and bypassing any ideas for a Kickstarter or other fundraisers is also good, as right now your no1 problem is how to gain the lost trust and goodwill from people in the community (which includes the most hardcore Amigans that would definitely buy your game).

One final note: I get that a planned release of a pc/mac version included in a bundle might seem like a good idea, however most people here are not quite excited with that kind of sugarcoating: they just want the Amiga version, nothing else, nothing more. Plus I'm not that sure you'd have any success using the original Amiga assets for any other platform, anyway not more than the success you had with that mobile remake (if not much less).

In any case, good luck from me
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Old 23 October 2017, 10:08   #56
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@btwins

What Galahad said plus Tsak's last point:
Really, going for a PC version before the Amiga one, won't really help your cause with the community. Most, if not all, around here care for the Amiga version of the game and nothing else.

Please, keep this communication channel open if you really meant what you said in your post, it's the only way to earn back some trust here.

Good luck.
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Old 23 October 2017, 13:01   #57
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I know the long history that lead to this situation and i don't want to comment.
But i would say if they succeed their kickstarter, it could lead others coders trying to give us back good all amiga games never released.
If they fail the kickstarter , they will use it like a proof that the amiga community isn't enough active or at least won't pay attention to it.
Just try to give it a chance and i understand really well the frustration of some: ten years, it's really long and it was an upside down story, it was annoying for sure.
But i still think it will be more profitable to make it a success than boycott it.
Make it happen for the best of each of us.
Thank you rabah for your explanations, i hope you will work hand in hand with the amiga community.
I have to say that I always had a good contact with rabah on twitter even if i would have hope to see the kickstarter more sooner, the combined release amiga + pc, mac etc is a good idea...
I hope that other coders will follow this path and we could have some good surprise, but before we have to make it succefull.

Last edited by turrican3; 23 October 2017 at 13:19.
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Old 23 October 2017, 14:10   #58
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I don't know about you guys, but I already tested Babylon Twins on the Amiga, a demo of the first level (the catacombs). That's why I know the game has potential.

Nice to see the author here, for a change. I'm still weary, though, but that's me. Once you loose my trust, you'll have to work twice as hard to get it back. The ball's on your side of the fence, now. Your move. Let's see what comes out of it.

To finalize: I'm not interested in any other ports of this. iOS, Android, PC/Steam, whatever. I'm ONLY interested on the Amiga version. That's the only version I will consider buying. I do hope, then, that it gets completed and released. Surely you understand that after a DECADE of failing to deliver on the promise to release an Amiga version, some people are reluctant to believe in your further "promises" this time around.

I do wish this Amiga project good luck and I'm willing to help were needs be.
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Old 23 October 2017, 17:10   #59
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Yes, the game seems to be very promising and I would pay for it, too, but:

Joining the others here, I am not at all interested in any other versions, only Amiga and if you say it is already done, then I think it should be released for a fixed price digital download right after some testing and tweaking (as Galahad suggested). I am almost sure a Kickstarter would fail (unless you somehow manage to create a huge hype around it, but I really doubt that is possible) so why waste energy and resources on that, if you can cash in on the Amiga DD sales right away?
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Old 23 October 2017, 17:28   #60
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Yes, the game seems to be very promising and I would pay for it, too, but:

Joining the others here, I am not at all interested in any other versions, only Amiga and if you say it is already done, then I think it should be released for a fixed price digital download right after some testing and tweaking (as Galahad suggested). I am almost sure a Kickstarter would fail (unless you somehow manage to create a huge hype around it, but I really doubt that is possible) so why waste energy and resources on that, if you can cash in on the Amiga DD sales right away?
I think it’s fair to give Kickstarter a go, if not for the main reason being with Kickstarter hitting the target at least will give him profits, as we all well know if a digital store is set up it only takes one person to release his bought copy online for free on the first day leaving him with little or no profits from what after all is his game, so a reasonable amount on Kickstarter is fair enough, his judgement on how much that will be is the decider if it will work of course.
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