Cloanto debate

Originally Posted by Minuous

You can get the emulator around which the package is based from http://www.winuae.net

Yes, we all know that WinUAE is an open source project.

But Amiga Forever also includes the licensed Amiga ROM/OS, where would you get those? That was one reason for asking whether you are promoting software piracy on EAB.

And what about the Amiga Forever player itself? That's now grown larger (just adding up the MBs) than the WinUAE component.

You speak as if Amiga Forever was only WinUAE, which it isn't. Isn't this supposed to be a thread about "corrections"?

Originally Posted by Minuous

Bringing down the system on the first of the provided games that I tried...Also, including mismatched AmigaOS components gathered from various different OS releases, which are not even *supposed* to work correctly together, causing various issues when trying to run OS-compliant software.

If you run WinUAE and it brings down Windows, it looks like a bad Windows graphics driver or similar. Only a driver or similar privileged code can bring down the system, applications can't. So how can you blame an application, I mean, it says you are a programmer in your signature, aren't you?

As for the mix of different OS releases, I am not sure what you are talking about, my configurations are running fine, and Amiga Forever now has 16 different default configurations in the Systems tab. Maybe you could provide some examples?

Originally Posted by Minuous

Yes, all the Bluehost nonsense. Plus promising to use funds from Amiga Forever to fund new versions of eg. PPaint, and then not doing so.

What is this "Bluehost nonsense", and what are you claiming that Cloanto did?

And where are those promises? I can't remember any, although looking at the change logs one can see that Amiga Forever and Personal Paint did intersect around 1997.

[Minuous]

>But Amiga Forever also includes the licensed Amiga ROM/OS, where would you get those? That was one reason for asking whether you are promoting software piracy on EAB.

They can be downloaded from various places, that is where I would get them. There's no legal issue anyway, anyone who actually has a real Amiga does not need to pay Cloanto for something they already have the right to use.

>And what about the Amiga Forever player itself? That's now grown larger (just adding up the MBs) than the WinUAE component.

I doubt it would add much value to the package, this is just a frontend/wrapper for UAE if I'm not mistaken?

>If you run WinUAE and it brings down Windows, it looks like a bad Windows graphics driver or similar. Only a driver or similar privileged code can bring down the system, applications can't. So how can you blame an application

Not so. Where did you get this idea from?

>As for the mix of different OS releases, I am not sure what you are talking about, my configurations are running fine, and Amiga Forever now has 16 different default configurations in the Systems tab. Maybe you could provide some examples?

They have removed certain components from OS3.9 entirely and replaced certain other components with obsolete ersions. This is no secret. See http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/15-107

>What is this "Bluehost nonsense"

Just run a search for it on this board...

>And where are those promises? I can't remember any, although looking at the change logs one can see that Amiga Forever and Personal Paint did intersect around 1997.

I found this announcement of the vapourware PPaint for OS4... still waiting 8 years later... http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view...&category=news

[OlafSch]

There was also a announcement regarding OS4 versions of Real3D and Directory Opus that did not become reality. Do you earn your money with IT (Software, Hardware, Services)? Noone with brain that has to earn money by what he does would make a port to any of the NGs right now (and in the last years). It is a hobby-project and there are estimates that there are 500-700 OS4 user right now. Do you really think that would justify commercial development. I use Cloanto too, have no problem with it. I used it for installing Amikit (and that is what i mostly work on). I do not know what they promised years ago (or not), but nobody is forced to use it. Amikit needs OS 3.5 / 3.9 or Amigaforever-CD during Installation because it not only needs the Roms to work, but also some copyrighted files. When you want ports of commercial applications for OS4 you (or Hyperion) has to pay for it or it will not happen. Very simple.

[amigang]

I can understand why some people dislike paying for something you can get for free and pretty much set up your self if you just have the Kickstart roms, but I'm personal very plased with Cloanto all in one solution, its not just one kickstart they provide they provide every kickstart relased, even beta or unrelased one, they have all the amiga systems set up and the retro platform format makes playing games a one click set up. So even though I did have a winuae set up before i got Cloanto setup I'm very pleased that I bought their package.

[ChrisUnionNJ]

Originally Posted by Minuous

>Do you have an opinion about the other emulation packages, like Amiga Classix by Epic Marketing, or the iPhone app by Manomio? Have you ever tried reporting a piracy site to Hyperion, and see if they too (have to) shut down sites? Or do you just have a problem with Cloanto?

I haven't used them, so no, I don't have an opinion. But all the iPhone apps I have ever tried have been total crap so I wouldn't be surprised if this one was crap too.

>Bribe you? How??

They sent me a copy of Amiga Forever that I had never ordered. Which would have pleased me if it was a good product, but when I tried it out it just confirmed the problems about which I had already heard from others.

>Do you mean you are promoting software piracy on EAB, or how else would this be available "for free"?

You can get the emulator around which the package is based from http://www.winuae.net

>Technical issues, like...?

Bringing down the system on the first of the provided games that I tried...Also, including mismatched AmigaOS components gathered from various different OS releases, which are not even *supposed* to work correctly together, causing various issues when trying to run OS-compliant software.

>Any evidence to back these allegations of "reprehensible conduct"?

Yes, all the Bluehost nonsense. Plus promising to use funds from Amiga Forever to fund new versions of eg. PPaint, and then not doing so.

I don't now what problems there are with it but I have used it for gaming
using WB and amikit with Zero problems i'm the type of user that if there
is a program that makes setting thing up easier i'm all for it..

And as far as Cloanto they seem to be a very good company I first got
Amiga Forever in 2006 and used that for ever then I got 64 forever and
they screwed up the order so they gave me a 2010 version of AF the
digital download version so I have no complaints..

[synchro]

>But Amiga Forever also includes the licensed Amiga ROM/OS, where would you get those? That was one reason for asking whether you are promoting software piracy on EAB.

They can be downloaded from various places, that is where I would get them. There's no legal issue anyway, anyone who actually has a real Amiga does not need to pay Cloanto for something they already have the right to use.

So what your saying is because you already own the roms why should you buy cloanto
Absolutely no reason whatsoever if you dont want to !!

But if you dont own an amiga and dont want to piss about making your own workbench its ready to run...

Cloanto are licenced to distribute the real roms....its not piracy they dont download them via torrent However that is a funny thought

[Allen1]

Have Cloanto actually started providing "REAL ROMS" now? its always been altered roms where a rom.key file was needed to use them with the emulator.


"Cloanto are licenced to distribute the real roms....its not piracy they dont download them via torrent However that is a funny thought"

For those of you who like parting so freely with your money for what anyone else would download for free, all I can say is good luck on that

I however would maybe add, by all means purchase one copy to get an idea of how to run WinUAE, other than that, you would be doing your wallet a major disservice if you were to to waste money on another copy in the future. If you have seen one version then you have basically seen them all


Its alway good to see people like Minuous putting into perspective the folly of buying something just because its there, if you are a collector then go ahead and collect, otherwise why on earth would anyone of sound mind (having seen the non-advances in the product) be daft enough to buy even more of what they already have! People do silly things at times

@Minuous, I have enjoyed your common sense posts M8

[synchro]

I have enjoyed your common sense posts M8

Must be me i dont get it

He states he owns an amiga anyway....and moans why should he buy cloanto because Winuae is free ? Which bit was common sense ?

Cloanto is just a cheap way of legally owning kickstart roms in a tidy package..thats it...end of....buy it or dont....As you say collectors of anything Amiga might and i did for that reason...Only the one though

But the thread was basicly is cloanto any good or does it suck....Not does it instigate piracy, Bribery and corruption from Cloanto and is EAB condoning this

It didnt work well on his machine thats all thats pissed him off........Probably his copy of windows he downloaded isnt setup correctly

I guess i cant understand why people will pay a lot of money for a mp3's from itunes when they can get it for nothing but millions do....They cant all be tossers can they ? i would be more inclined to buy the cd with all the packaging to feel like i got my moneys worth i must admit. But im old school when you bought an album you got a damn good package back then.

[Arnie]

How some people can laugh at people on here for buying it astounds me.

The point is, you don't have to buy it, nobody is forcing you.

I have bought it and I think it is a very good product. Everything is setup for you and the RP9 format is great for multi disk games.

The whole package is great for people new to the Amiga.

If you don't own it, you can't slag it.

[Allen1]

@synchro,

I take it that you have not actually read anything that he posted such as :- http://amigan.1emu.net/aw/opinions.txt which I thought was a brilliant insight on several things and really down to earth.

For far too long the "legal" roms issue has been touted as a justifiable end to having folk buy such tat as the product you are defending. You are also aware that nothing is actually being invested in actual hardware etc from the sale of this product, basically the item in question is milking every last penny it can under the "legal" rom/licence crap that people like yourself are constantly defending. The actual roms on the CD are not even compatible with a real Amiga as they have been altered as I previously mentioned ie they need a rom.key file to work, so please lay off the "a cheap way of legally owning kickstart roms"

It has also been mentioned that if you own an Amiga, you can also copy that rom for your own use as you are the the owner of that machine. On the plus side of Cloanto, you can also make copies of workbench 3.1 etc from the ADF files and transfer them to an Amiga to copy the ADF's back onto floppy disks and use them on a real Amiga, hell you bought the CD so why not make use of the files


I'm 55 and where you state "But im old school when you bought an album you got a damn good package back then."

Back then you had a few bands that had great songs and some with excellent artwork for their albums but on the whole there was nothing special for the majority, I too was in those hazy days and had older brothers and sisters who were into their music. Sometimes the artwork was a lot better than the songs on the album too. Also back then, there was no alternative to buying an album if you wanted to hear it, today is a completely different story altogether.



In reply to this :-
How some people can laugh at people on here for buying it astounds me.

The point is, you don't have to buy it, nobody is forcing you.

I have bought it and I think it is a very good product. Everything is setup for you and the RP9 format is great for multi disk games.

The whole package is great for people new to the Amiga.

If you don't own it, you can't slag it.

I do own it mate and I definitely CAN slag it as a total rip off especially to anyone expecting anything special when they are purchasing a newer version and why on earth do they use rp9 etc instead of standard ADF files which are also great for multi disk games and more easily used in other emulators. I said it before and will say it again, if you have a copy already, then the latest reincarnation is more or less a tarted up version of what you already have.

Spend your pennies wisely and invest in a WhDLoad key, much better and its something that is actively being worked on all the time

[synchro]

I take it that you have not actually read anything that he posted such as :- http://amigan.1emu.net/aw/opinions.txt which I thought was a brilliant insight on several things and really down to earth.

No i didnt....No pictures

Im with Arnie... A simple accurate answer
He was not refering to you owning it he was refering to Minuous who had his sent free !!

He had never actually bought it and was complaining about it before he got it free...Its to late to admit its not so bad after that so it was never going to be any good in his eyes.

As for investment....Its a business and product....why do you think they have to....If you bought a licence for the quake engine to develop a few games would you be expected to invest your profits in ID Software ?

A rom key is irrelavent !! you still own the roms so you can use others......just like if you own an amiga the rom is on the chip and you can copy it off.......If you can obtain the roms elsewherer your still ok to use them under those conditions.

I wont split hairs its a pretty good product.....I have always maintained roms should be freely distributable by now for all of us but thats nothing to do with whether amiga forever is any good

[Allen1]

When it comes down to it, there is absolutely nothing that Cloanto provide that can't be got for free on the internet and that also includes their products. If they were investing in the development of programs or hardware or improved workbench or even rom images, then I would maybe support them to a degree. They do not though and as it has been mentioned by many others in this thread they offer very little for such a high price and the stuff they have on their disks is someone else's hard work which is plonked on as a filler. Pretty poor value for a potential buyer.

I have enjoyed reading many of the comments in the thread, its well worth reading and thankfully there are a lot of other folk who posted in it that also think people are being taken for a ride with Cloanto's product and the "legal roms and workbench" type crap.

If anyone has read this, then go to the start of the thread and enjoy

[synchro]

On the plus side of Cloanto, you can also make copies of workbench 3.1 etc from the ADF files and transfer them to an Amiga to copy the ADF's back onto floppy disks and use them on a real Amiga, hell you bought the CD so why not make use of the files

Just noticed you wrote the above..

Hell ye !! I didnt say you shouldnt rip it to bits and grab what you can

[antonvaltaz]

Originally Posted by synchro

I wont split hairs its a pretty good product.....I have always maintained roms should be freely distributable by now for all of us but thats nothing to do with whether amiga forever is any good

This.

I agree the Kickstart ROMs and Workbench disks should be made free as well, and I don't think that it's a good reason to buy the package.

Some reasons why I personally like Amiga Forever (over and above using WinUAE on it's own):

• It's a nice front end for all of your games etc, with screenshots, music, box scans, manual scans etc.
• The RP9 files (which include zipped up ADFs, IPFs, HDFs etc which can be easily extracted) are an easy way to combine multi-disk games and all the config information.
• It auto-updates to the latest version of WinUAE
• Save states are handled MUCH better than in WinUAE's 'native' interface

If you don't want it, don't buy it. Personally I'm glad I spent my money on Amiga Forever rather than WHDLoad, since as an emulator user I don't have much use for the latter.

Incidentally many of the points mentioned in http://amigan.1emu.net/aw/opinions.txt are either irrelevant or inaccurate:

1. I tried playing one of their "preconfigured" games, picked one at random (Zoom), and it crashes the whole machine (not just UAE but Windows itself too) before you even get to start playing.

Well it works fine on my PC here (Windows 7 64-bit).

2. The version of UAE they supply is obsolete and unsupported.

Do you mean Linux UAE? WinUAE is auto-updated to the latest version.

3. The Deathbed Vigil DVD supplied is not the extended, digitally-remastered one made by Dave Haynie for DVD release, it is instead one that was digitized from an old VHS tape: image/sound quality is very poor and all the extras are missing.

I don't think they claimed to include all the extras, it's one of several videos on the supplied DVDs. It apparently hasn't changed for some years, when did Dave Haynie remaster his for DVD release? Image and sound quality seems fine to me (even if not up to the re-mastered version).

4. There is nothing anywhere to suggest that the commercial games included have been included legally. They are pirate versions, complete with cracktros. Hypocrites.

Yes there is, they explicitly state that all games are licenced, even if they have included the cracked version.

5. Most of the software supplied is just demo versions, eg. ClassAct.

'Most'?

6. The ROMs supplied are worse than those that are freely available: they don't work without stuffing around with keyfiles etc.

But they supply the keyfile in the same folder as the ROMs. If you're just using it for emulation, (and it is an emulation package), why does that matter? I expect their licence forced them to include the modified ROMs, as far as I know they're identical in every other way.

7. They haven't bothered making and including a 3.9 ROM, instead they force the warm rebooting of the emulator to apply the patches in RAM every time, making bootup times considerably longer than they need to be.

Don't know if this is correct, but there is a '3.X' ROM, and the Workbench 3.X environment starts up very quickly for me.

8. The HDF files that were apparently supposed to be included are missing.

No they're not.

9. The only Workbench which is there in full is 3.1 (6 disks), all the rest are just the first disk only.

Also 1.3, but there are full HDFs for 1.3, 2.1 and 3.1.

10. No support for actually using the thing on anything other than Windows. Eg. like an Amiga. Obviously they don't give a fuck about the Amiga community.

But as it's an emulation package for Windows, why is this a fault with Amiga Forever?

11. The OS they supply is not OS3.9, it is "OS3.x"; basically a crippled version of OS3.5 with many components removed or downgraded to obsolete versions.

As can be seen in the link you posted to earlier in this thread, OS 3.X is their own modified version. Where do they suggest that they supply 3.9?

[Amiga1992]

How is this thread now "was: Cloanto sucks"? It still sucks

[synchro]

Originally Posted by Akira

How is this thread now "was: Cloanto sucks"? It still sucks

LOL !! I have tried to get it on track at the end of a few of my posts...
But i guess people are saying "why" it sucks.....Im no better doing the same saying why it isnt so bad...

Hey this is Xfiles stuff here in some posts Bribery ...Corruption....etc

[Minuous]

>Its to late to admit its not so bad after that so it was never going to be any good in his eyes.

Not at all. I have an open mind and if I had found it to be any good I would have said so.

>Well it works fine on my PC here (Windows 7 64-bit).

I haven't tested the package under Win7.

>Do you mean Linux UAE? WinUAE is auto-updated to the latest version.

No, I mean WinUAE, and I'm talking about the version included in the package, which was already considerably out of date at the time I received the package. Forcibly "auto-updating" would qualify it as malware; I hate programs that do this. The decision to upgrade should be left to the user.

>It apparently hasn't changed for some years, when did Dave Haynie remaster his for DVD release?

2003.

>Yes there is, they explicitly state that all games are licenced, even if they have included the cracked version.

Well, they may state that, but there is no reason to believe them. And I very much doubt they asked the crackers involved for their permission to use their copyrighted cracktros etc. in a commercial product.

>But they supply the keyfile in the same folder as the ROMs. If you're just using it for emulation, (and it is an emulation package), why does that matter? I expect their licence forced them to include the modified ROMs, as far as I know they're identical in every other way.

Then they should have negotiated a more reasonable licence. And it does matter; the files aren't usable for some purposes, eg. for an Amiga.

>No they're not.

Maybe they are included now, but they certainly weren't contained in the package I received.

>Also 1.3, but there are full HDFs for 1.3, 2.1 and 3.1.

Maybe the HDFs are complete (haven't checked recently) but the ADFs certainly aren't. You can't include the first disk only of an OS and say that you have included the whole thing, that is a deceptive trade practice. It's like if you bought a multi-disk game but they only bothered to include disk 1, would you regard it as complete? Or buying an album on CD and finding that only the first track was present.

>But as it's an emulation package for Windows, why is this a fault with Amiga Forever?

It's supposed to be cross-platform: see http://www.amigaforever.com/diversity/

>As can be seen in the link you posted to earlier in this thread, OS 3.X is their own modified version. Where do they suggest that they supply 3.9?

I never claimed that they claim to include OS3.9. The point in this case isn't that they are lying, but rather that they include something that is crippled and rather crap (namely this "OS3.X"). So after buying this package you would still have to go buy or pirate proper OS3.9. Because no Amiga software has been written for this "OS3.X", it is expected that mismatched versions are not used together. I have had various bug reports for my programs where it turned out that the users were using this "OS3.X" instead of the proper OS3.5/3.9, and therefore had mismatched versions of files which don't work correctly with one another. When I sent them the proper official files, the problems went away.

Originally Posted by Minuous

>But Amiga Forever also includes the licensed Amiga ROM/OS, where would you get those? That was one reason for asking whether you are promoting software piracy on EAB.

They can be downloaded from various places, that is where I would get them. There's no legal issue anyway, anyone who actually has a real Amiga does not need to pay Cloanto for something they already have the right to use.

This is not true, what laws are you basing your statements on? If you own an Amiga you have the right to use the ROM built inside the Amiga with that one Amiga computer, but that's it.

Again, you are promoting piracy on EAB, which is against the rules (and the laws).

Originally Posted by Minuous

this is just a frontend/wrapper for UAE if I'm not mistaken?

It is not. I was part of the beta test for the RP9 Editor (part of Amiga Forever 2012), and that alone took at least 6 months of development. Other than that the player is much more than a "wrapper", it simplifies the settings, adds save states, provides a consistent user interface between Amiga and C64 emulation...

Does Cloanto need to "bribe" you again so that you can give Amiga Forever an "objective" look?

Originally Posted by Minuous

Not so. Where did you get this idea from?

It is a well-known fact that normal applications can't crash Windows (NT and higher) as a whole:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Screen_of_Death: "Stop errors are hardware or driver related... when the kernel, or a driver running in kernel mode, encounters any error from which it cannot recover."

Or were you using a pre-NT version of Windows?

Originally Posted by Minuous

They have removed certain components from OS3.9 entirely and replaced certain other components with obsolete ersions.

They did not "remove" anything. "3.9" is an illegal (according to Amiga Inc.) product by Haage & Partner. Cloanto published "3.X", not "3.9".

Originally Posted by Minuous

>What is this "Bluehost nonsense"

Just run a search for it on this board...

No Sir, you are the one who has to search the (old EAB) boards. The report to Bluehost was done by the AmiKit guy, not by Cloanto. The Cloanto people probably don't even know what you are talking about. You seem to be so full of yourself that I can't imagine you doing any fact checking, and even less apologizing for all the untrue mud you are throwing around. Shame on you.

Originally Posted by Minuous

I found this announcement of the vapourware PPaint for OS4... still waiting 8 years later... http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view...&category=news

Did you read what you linked to? Cloanto gave the source code to Amiga so that Amiga could do the port. It was Amiga Inc. who was supposed to do the port, not Cloanto.

Again, congratulations for your fact checking!

[prowler]

Originally Posted by Jakub83

If you own an Amiga you have the right to use the ROM built inside the Amiga with that one Amiga computer, but that's it.

Surely you are also entitled to dump the ROM image to a file and use it with emulators?

Both AmigaExplorer and WinUAE facilitate this.

[Allen1]

Hi there Minuous,

good to see you here again

It would appear that even if some folk got a cracked (broken) CD they would still defend the blooming thing as being superb and well worth the money.

Thank goodness for people who actually see things as they are without the rose tinted glasses. My personal preference is towards a real Amiga although I also use WinUAE for making HDFs for my Minimig as well as for my 1200 and 600's along with the odd game emulation now and then. I also use proper Rom files and some modified ones instead of the doofus files that come with the Cloanto package.

For novice or inexperienced users, I suppose that the Cloanto package would be a starting point, however, why on earth any experienced user would even entertain it is beyond me!

WinUAE is a fine emulator and does NOT need a frontend plonked onto it as in the cloanto nonsense, for goodness sake if people can't manage to download a newer version of WinUAE when its available then why on earth do they even bother to have a computer with internet access in the first place?

Apart from the partially stripped workbench disks, there really isn't a lot going for this overpriced item, thank goodness for Google, plus advice from people on sites such as EAB and others like it.

99.9% of what is useful on Cloanto's CD is down to WinUAE, yes people may use the roms off the CD and maybe even the workbench ADF's if they don't know any better but look at how much they pay for the privilege.

For a novice user, Cloanto fills a gap but for anyone with an ounce of experience or curiosity, isn't it time to take off those training wheels and experience WinUAE as it was meant to be, or maybe try a real Amiga if you can get hold of one. I know that having a real Amiga isn't always practical but that's where WinUAE takes up the slack.

The above is not meant as a personal attack on anyone, merely pointing out that life exists beyond the limits of Cloanto's expensive and limited boundaries.

It was probably not a good idea to write this while sampling some of my Xmas prezzies (whisky) but it looks OK to me at the moment and firefox finds most of the spelling mistake thank goodness

What it looks like when I get up may be a completely different story though