Problematic Demos. - Page 15

amilo3438 · 29 October 2013, 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

I don't see anything blinking in that part. (Do not use beta10, reason explained few posts ago)

Beta 9 2013-10-20 ... same behaving on my config (see attach.) ... now need to see/check some yt-video to compare if there is same or how it works as it should.

EDIT: Well, on my config it happens same as on this video -> [ Show youtube player ] ... starting at 4:23 !!!

p.s. BTW, why not to use beta10? What reason explained?!

Toni Wilen · 29 October 2013, 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Ups, it seems forgot to report this findings earlier, so here it is now:

Marchewki (Trackmo) by Alchemy -> http://janeway.exotica.org.uk/release.php?id=8680
A500 OCS/ECS ... see on pic.1 below ...

A500 confirmed. (Corrupted data?)

Quote:

And maybe also this one (pic.2):
Lethal Formula Final (Trackmo) by Cult -> http://janeway.exotica.org.uk/release.php?id=20650

Also A500 confirmed. (Single line of hidden surface being visible)

Quote:

See arrows on Pic.6 ...
No Reality (Trackmo) by Devils -> http://janeway.exotica.org.uk/release.php?id=3676

Same. (Don't know, don't care, lazy code probably)

Quote:

Pic.7 ... glitches?!
Alternative Reality (Demo) by Suspect -> http://janeway.exotica.org.uk/release.php?id=12343

And same. (Corrupted data?)

Toni Wilen · 29 October 2013, 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

p.s. BTW, why not to use beta10? What reason explained?!

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=265

Use winuae.zip instead.

amilo3438 · 29 October 2013, 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=265

Use winuae.zip instead.

Yes, I use winuae.zip (test version) ... does the same happens on a real A500 as shown on yt-video (see on my post earlier)?!

EDIT: Just tested it again with latest test WinUAE 2013-10-27 12:17 ... and got same result as shown on yt-video?!

amilo3438 · 30 October 2013, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

I don't see anything blinking in that part. (Do not use beta10, reason explained few posts ago)

Also when running latest test beta 10 from yesterday, it happens the same as shown on following video starting at 4:23 ->
[ Show youtube player ] !!!

So, if that is not a blinking ... then what is ... a flashing or flickering maybe!

heavy · 30 October 2013, 13:30

I can't see any blinking... (end part sound like on my A500 ^^)
try this one : [ Show youtube player ]
done with b9

amilo3438 · 30 October 2013, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavy

I can't see any blinking... (end part sound like on my A500 ^^)
try this one : [ Show youtube player ]
done with b9

Well, if same is happens also on a real A500 as shown on video starting from 4:24, green area flashing on Earth rotation part, then there is no problem.

heavy · 30 October 2013, 16:14

can't see any flashing in this part on a500 and on the 2 videos

amilo3438 · 30 October 2013, 21:14

Last A500 (Demo) by Oblivion

A500 OCS/ECS ... glitches on cube rotation part?! (Interesting, it doesnt happens on AGA!)

EDIT:
Feel Blue (Intro) by Oblivion

Another scrolling text issue (pic.2)!

amilo3438 · 30 October 2013, 23:06

TRSI Easter Party Demo by Panic & Agnostic Front

A500 ECS ... on the end of demo, while I tried to do reset from WinUAE Propertis, it crashes!

EDIT: While in demo just press LMB until pink screen is shown and after press F12 and click on Reset from there ... and it crashes (on ECS only)!

amilo3438 · 31 October 2013, 12:24

Megademo by Sargon & Red Sector Inc. & Thrust & Phalanx & Shadow Light

A500 OCS/ECS ... upper row pixels of word "SARGON"?! (pics.1,2,3)

EDIT:
Cheap demo (Demo) by Phoenix

Upper scroller glitches (pic.4)?! (Interesting, same CRC32 as on link, but here looks fine!)

Also, exist release 2 of demo (different CRC32) Cheap Demo Release 2 (Demo) by Phoenix, and works fine in WinUAE!

Toni Wilen · 31 October 2013, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Last A500 (Demo) by Oblivion

A500 OCS/ECS ... glitches on cube rotation part?! (Interesting, it doesnt happens on AGA!)

It is never interesting, most likely caused by some CPU emulation timing problem (possible even same as Anarchy's Madness 2)

Working with AGA config only means it is not badly coded

Quote:

EDIT:
Feel Blue (Intro) by Oblivion

Another scrolling text issue (pic.2)!

Yeah, same problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

TRSI Easter Party Demo by Panic & Agnostic Front

A500 ECS ... on the end of demo, while I tried to do reset from WinUAE Propertis, it crashes!

It crashes very badly, stack pointer points to custom registers and CPU keeps generating exceptions = all kinds of garbage gets written to custom registers. (log shows it very clearly). Probably some programmed refresh rate register (ECS only) gets too bad values that are not fully validated.

btw, remember that only dump files from official betas can be used for debugging purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Megademo by Sargon & Red Sector Inc. & Thrust & Phalanx & Shadow Light

A500 OCS/ECS ... upper row pixels of word "SARGON"?! (pics.1,2,3)

This is OCS only. ECS = single mismatched row. Emulation slightly tweaked to match this behavior.

Quote:

EDIT:
Cheap demo (Demo) by Phoenix

Probably yet another demo that does not clear/initialize memory it uses and assumes some bootblock/menu etc.. does it. A500 confirmed, shows same garbage.

amilo3438 · 31 October 2013, 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

It is never interesting, most likely caused by some CPU emulation timing problem (possible even same as Anarchy's Madness 2)

Working with AGA config only means it is not badly coded

Last A500 (Demo) by Oblivion ... oh yea, it is interesting indeed!

Dont use A1200 config. but on A500 config. just change OCS/ECS into AGA and no problemos! So how it could be a CPU emulation timing problem then?

Toni Wilen · 31 October 2013, 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Last A500 (Demo) by Oblivion ... oh yea, it is interesting indeed!

Dont use A1200 config. but on A500 config. just change OCS/ECS into AGA and no problemos! So how it could be a CPU emulation timing problem then?

"AGA" usually means full AGA config..

It enables AGA-only 32-bit bitplane fetches in that vector part = twice more chipram bandwidth left for CPU and blitter if AGA chipset.

amilo3438 · 31 October 2013, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

"AGA" usually means full AGA config..

It enables AGA-only 32-bit bitplane fetches in that vector part = twice more chipram bandwidth left for CPU and blitter if AGA chipset.

Ok, didnt know for that ... so now tested it again but on CPU Freq. 1x (=A500/2) and AGA = no problemos!

... (but now a lot of problems on chessboard rotation cube ... so it is weird a little?!)

yea, all other CPU Freq. on OCS, including Custom, doesnt change anything ... so only on OCS if CE=OFF no problems!

Toni Wilen · 31 October 2013, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Ok, didnt know for that ... so now tested it again but on CPU Freq. 1x (=A500/2) and AGA ... no problemos! (but now a lot of problems on chessboard rotation cube) ... so it is weird a little?!

I don't think you understood it. It means blitter has nearly twice more bandwidth = finishes line drawing and filling much faster = no glitches. It does not change clock rates at all. It only reduces wait states.

There is nothing weird.

AGA blitter is exact same as ECS one. It is bitplane DMA having 32 (2x)/64 (4x) bit fetch modes on AGA that speeds up the blitter because bitplane DMA uses _less_ DMA cycles, leaving more for blitter, copper and CPU (if it accesses chip RAM).

amilo3438 · 31 October 2013, 19:35

So, its probably another CPU emulation timing problem then ... Ok, and thanks for the detailed explanation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

It is never interesting, most likely caused by some CPU emulation timing problem (possible even same as Anarchy's Madness 2)

Well, do you remember this (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=70031) already solved problem ... at first it was on same (false) diagnosis!

EDIT: Now one thing bugging me ... Can it happen a CPU instruction with bad timing, once repaired (if ever), causes errors in some of the "already repaired" demos?!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just thinking ...
What would be the fastest way to check does the all CPU instructions use correct timings?
Is it possible to print out the values and compare it with values with those in a book?
Or maybe make some program that will save timings from a real A500 and then compare these values on WinUAE?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT2: Just tested the demo Last A500 (Demo) by Oblivion again with 68010, 68020 and 68030 CPUs on same A500 freq. with CE=ON ... got exactly same glitches on rotation cube part as with 68000! ... Is it possible that all emulated CPUs suffer from the same timing problem?!

EDIT3: But one interesting case: On the demo Hi Freaks (Intro) by Supplex & The Silents ... when using 68010 instead 68000, problem is gone!!!

Toni Wilen · 01 November 2013, 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Well, do you remember this (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=70031) already solved problem ... at first it was on same (false) diagnosis!

Everything is possible.

Quote:

EDIT: Now one thing bugging me ... Can it happen a CPU instruction with bad timing, once repaired (if ever), causes errors in some of the "already repaired" demos?!

Only if there is some other bug and both bugs cancel each other.

Quote:

Just thinking ...
What would be the fastest way to check does the all CPU instructions use correct timings?
Is it possible to print out the values and compare it with values with those in a book?
Or maybe make some program that will save timings from a real A500 and then compare these values on WinUAE?

There is no documentation that shows cycle-exact timings (except 68000 microcode in US patent document which unfortunately is from some pre-production variant and may have differences) and instruction internal timing can't be timed with software.

Each instruction variant, including address modes should be checked because 68000 is microcoded CPU, unexpected differences are possible.

It will take too much time and it is easy to make mistakes when analyzing results. Testing existing programs is much easier.

Madness 2 / Anarchy still seems to be the best test case because error is not small (= it has to be instruction that is executed many times).

Quote:

EDIT2: Just tested the demo Last A500 (Demo) by Oblivion again with 68010, 68020 and 68030 CPUs on same A500 freq. with CE=ON ... got exactly same glitches on rotation cube part as with 68000! ... Is it possible that all emulated CPUs suffer from the same timing problem?!

EDIT3: But one interesting case: On the demo Hi Freaks (Intro) by Supplex & The Silents ... when using 68010 instead 68000, problem is gone!!!

It still isn't interesting and it won't help. It won't really narrow down possible problem, unless you start assuming and I won't (at least not too much).

btw, shifted scrollers should be 100% fixed now in today's winuae.zip

amilo3438 · 01 November 2013, 22:56

Thanks on answer, though did not expected any as those were only my loud thinkings.

Btw, great news regarding shifted scrollers being fixed ... will test it tomorrow ... as my laptop is not currently available.

EDIT: I never liked to write on a small touch screen!

amilo3438 · 02 November 2013, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

btw, shifted scrollers should be 100% fixed now in today's winuae.zip

It seems that the shifted scrollers fix might damaged "something"!

Megademo by Intuition ... WinUAE test 2013-10-31 (pic.1) and test 2013-11-02 (pic.2)...?!

30 October 2013, 21:14	#289
amilo3438 Amiga 500 User Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: EU Posts: 1,506	Last A500 (Demo) by Oblivion A500 OCS/ECS ... glitches on cube rotation part?! (Interesting, it doesnt happens on AGA!) EDIT: Feel Blue (Intro) by Oblivion Another scrolling text issue (pic.2)! Attached Thumbnails Last edited by amilo3438; 30 October 2013 at 21:36.

31 October 2013, 12:24	#291
amilo3438 Amiga 500 User Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: EU Posts: 1,506	Megademo by Sargon & Red Sector Inc. & Thrust & Phalanx & Shadow Light A500 OCS/ECS ... upper row pixels of word "SARGON"?! (pics.1,2,3) EDIT: Cheap demo (Demo) by Phoenix Upper scroller glitches (pic.4)?! (Interesting, same CRC32 as on link, but here looks fine!) Also, exist release 2 of demo (different CRC32) Cheap Demo Release 2 (Demo) by Phoenix, and works fine in WinUAE! Attached Thumbnails Last edited by amilo3438; 31 October 2013 at 13:30.

01 November 2013, 22:56	#299
amilo3438 Amiga 500 User Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: EU Posts: 1,506	Thanks on answer, though did not expected any as those were only my loud thinkings. Btw, great news regarding shifted scrollers being fixed ... will test it tomorrow ... as my laptop is not currently available. EDIT: I never liked to write on a small touch screen! Last edited by amilo3438; 02 November 2013 at 13:47. Reason: corrections in text

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30 October 2013, 13:30	#286
heavy noodle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: europe Posts: 247	I can't see any blinking... (end part sound like on my A500 ^^) try this one : [ Show youtube player ] done with b9

30 October 2013, 16:14	#288
heavy noodle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: europe Posts: 247	can't see any flashing in this part on a500 and on the 2 videos

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