Poll: What KS would you prefer in a Vampire... Aros or KS3.1

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

People wanting just 3.1. get it. Simple as that. Just that not new features will be added

Ye but then again, if AROS is the best option right now, why aren't we all using it already.
If we are talking about some scenario that will happen 3 years from now, surely we can update the Vampire with a new (aros) ROM when that happens?

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Ye but then again, if AROS is the best option right now, why aren't we all using it already.
If we are talking about some scenario that will happen 3 years from now, surely we can update the Vampire with a new (aros) ROM when that happens?

why spoiling now lots of money for getting some slightly updated binaries when you can invest in a longterm platform with modern features?

You get your beloved 3.1 with P96 running on it

Just that you will not get a adapted graphics libraries making use of new SAGA features. But as you and others say... you are only interested in retro stuff that will not use it anyway. So why caring?

And I use Aros. Why you are not using it must you know yourself. I cannot answer for you obviously

I do not understand why some react this way... it has almost the religious tone like AmigaOS vs. MorphOS or similar. You can use it like before, your games work on it and it is a accellerator with 68060 and 128 MB. More than enough for retro. Why are you caring about special updates if only interested in retro? For me not to understand... And I ordered Vampire too and am not interested in 3.X updates for it. So I shall pay for your preference?

The responsible team members have decided that the requested money is not acceptable for them to get something licensed and adapted. Simple as that. Who owns 3.1. and proofs that gets it.

[Photon]

3.1. We have thread tools to post polls, you know!

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Photon

3.1. We have thread tools to post polls, you know!

team members can outvote any poll you know

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

why spoiling now lots of money for getting some slightly updated binaries when you can invest in a longterm platform with modern features?

Personally I'm not.. My A600 and 1200 have 3.1 ROMs already. So no new cost. I'm guessing I'm not the only one..

Originally Posted by OlafSch

You get your beloved 3.1 with P96 running on it

Just that you will not get a adapted graphics libraries making use of new SAGA features. But as you and others say... you are only interested in retro stuff that will not use it anyway. So why caring?

I live in the real world, which means I love my old retro stuff and love the idea of Amiga OS getting some new life so it can be pushed even further, but it is and will be a *hobby*. I have no plan to use a 68k AROS machine as my main computer for actual work.
Also it sounds like you are saying SAGA is only possible on AROS? If the new libs are not read from an actual ROM chip, why is that?

Originally Posted by OlafSch

And I use Aros. Why you are not using it must you know yourself. I cannot answer for you obviously

You can read between the lines. Whatever your personal feelings towards AROS are, the user base is a minority compared to Amiga OS users. One could draw the conclusion that not everyone who is "left" in Amigaland has the same goal with their hobby. If you think 68k AROS will ever become something else than a small niche hobby then... well.. lets just agree to disagree here.. ;-)

Originally Posted by OlafSch

I do not understand why some react this way... it has almost the religious tone like AmigaOS vs. MorphOS or similar. You can use it like before, your games work on it and it is a accellerator with 68060 and 128 MB. More than enough for retro. Why are you caring about special updates if only interested in retro? For me not to understand... And I ordered Vampire too and am not interested in 3.X updates for it. So I shall pay for your preference?

Your passion for AROS is clouding your judgement. I clearly was "pro choice" supporting what @dirkies wrote in his post. Menaing that no one that doesn't want 3.1 ROMs should be forced to buy them. Not sure what you mean by "I shall pay for your preference". I dont want to force anything on you. Also, with that questionable reasoning in mind, why should *you* "force" others to use your preffered ROMs again? ;-)

Originally Posted by OlafSch

The responsible team members have decided that the requested money is not acceptable for them to get something licensed and adapted. Simple as that. Who owns 3.1. and proofs that gets it.

Not exactly sure what you refer to here? Are we talking other licenses than 3.1 ROM? Would the P96 license situation be different with AROS? (I have no insight into this). The devs can do whatever they want, its their labour of love and their hard work going into this. All I can say for me personally is that if they make it AROS only, I will not buy any more hardware.. If we keep having a choice, then Ill surely get A1200 version and maybe standalone device.. The license fees are such a small part of it all.. Other factors have much more impact on *my personal* decision making.

Cheers

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Personally I'm not.. My A600 and 1200 have 3.1 ROMs already. So no new cost. I'm guessing I'm not the only one..



I live in the real world, which means I love my old retro stuff and love the idea of Amiga OS getting some new life so it can be pushed even further, but it is and will be a *hobby*. I have no plan to use a 68k AROS machine as my main computer for actual work.
Also it sounds like you are saying SAGA is only possible on AROS? If the new libs are not read from an actual ROM chip, why is that?




You can read between the lines. Whatever your personal feelings towards AROS are, the user base is a minority compared to Amiga OS users. One could draw the conclusion that not everyone who is "left" in Amigaland has the same goal with their hobby. If you think 68k AROS will ever become something else than a small niche hobby then... well.. lets just agree to disagree here.. ;-)



Your passion for AROS is clouding your judgement. I clearly was "pro choice" supporting what @dirkies wrote in his post. Menaing that no one that doesn't want 3.1 ROMs should be forced to buy them. Not sure what you mean by "I shall pay for your preference". I dont want to force anything on you. Also, with that questionable reasoning in mind, why should *you* "force" others to use your preffered ROMs again? ;-)



Not exactly sure what you refer to here? Are we talking other licenses than 3.1 ROM? Would the P96 license situation be different with AROS? (I have no insight into this). The devs can do whatever they want, its their labour of love and their hard work going into this. All I can say for me personally is that if they make it AROS only, I will not buy any more hardware.. If we keep having a choice, then Ill surely get A1200 version and maybe standalone device.. The license fees are such a small part of it all.. Other factors have much more impact on *my personal* decision making.

Cheers

No SAGA is not bound to Aros but how do you add new features to libraries without sources? You can patch them of course but that does not work without limit. People already get 3.1. when they can proof that they own it so nothing will change. The P96 situation with Aros is indeed very different, you simply do not need it. I do not know how they will support P96 (and do care zero) but I assume that there will be instructions how to setup it yourself. It is just that some money goes into Aros development and not in license fees. Any assumption that you only have to pay some dollars extra when wanting 3.1. roms is just assumption because we do not know what was negotiated, we do not know if the offer was simply f.e. Hyperion (or whoelse) gets 10$ for the roms or if they wanted amount x for the license independent of real sales.

if they could have a agreement X$ for license extra but only if someone wants it it would be reasonable. My assumption was that it is not per really sold license but amount x that has to be covered by all sales so finally everyone would have to pay for it. But we will propably never know

I never claimed that Aros (or anything other amiga-related) will ever become a competitive mainstream platform again, that idea would be silly. But I think there are many here who want to buy new hardware to get new and better software doing things with it that were impossible before and not just playing some old games.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

+1 @dirkies
These X vs Y fanboi "discussions" can go on forever.

There's no fanboyism here. I am not an AROS fanboy, in case you missed it too, I actually changed my mind and not because I prefer one or the other (actually, for compatibility's sake, I would prefer 3.x)

The reason people don't use AROS is either because their Amiga already has a ROM or you downloaded a kickstart from the Internet. Simple as that.

With arguments like "I don't care" there's no wonder shit like Cloanto exist. Everyone seems to be really willing to ignore the negative impact these people inflict in independent/fan projects related to Amiga, like Vampire. It's the same kind of attitude of people saying "I don't care if the government snoops on my phone conversations, I have nothing to hide". You fail to see the big picture and the ill intentions.

This argument is not about money at all. You're seeing the development and release of an accelerator card being hindered by licensing issues. I am an adult and I spend money in my hobby, and I have spent MUCH MORE on my Amiga than what a Vampire costs, and would do so again.

[eXeler0]

@akira my point is the same as dirkies. . let us choose, a unanimous decision will never happen. that was the point with the fanboi x vs y comment. Even if it's not about fanbois it's still idea x vs idea y and that can go on forever too. So make it easy and let ppl choose one or the other.

[tomcat666]

3.1 (for when I buy one )

Not sure if I am in minority or majority here... but what I am looking in the vampire is :

- Have AGA on A600
- Have HDMI output on normal ECS/AGA
- Extra ram and speed to run WHDLoad games nicely
- Not care about P96 at all (well it would be a novelty thing to show to people, but I probably wouldnt use it much)
- Not care about AROS at all

So for what I would want I don't think there is any licencing involved, or ?

[Devlin]

I don't really have a need for the Vampire, having an A1200, but I think some kind of host-flashable ROM is needed instead of a hard choice of either/or.

If I was getting one, I'd be wanting KS3.1 on it, for certain though.

[grond]

Originally Posted by dirkies

This is becoming a tiresome anti Hyperion/Cloanto thread, I don't care I have to pay a few euros extra for the kickstart, the Apollo still costs a fraction of other accelerator hardware. Everybody wins.

The vampire's price is not so low as to make more room for feeding the leeches. Obviously, the vampire could also sell for twice or thrice the price. The vampire is designed, built and sold with quite some idealism. It's goal is to provide an alternative to ridiculously overpriced accelerators that don't give you any significant improvement over what was the state of the art more than 20 years ago and where you have to pay extra for each megabyte of RAM. It's goal also is to burst the insane bubble of totally overpriced used accelerator hardware. If you think about Amiga as being exclusively about nostalgia, you don't understand what the project also is about: to technically continue the path where Commodore left the Amiga. Even if the Amiga will always stay decades behind what we've got today in the PC and handheld market, why should it stay the same forever? I want to see new software running on the Amiga doing things that were not possible before (on Amiga). The apollo core is done by some processor professionals and it is a very competitive design. As you know, the 68k once was a very competitive CPU architecture. The apollo core is implemented using standard CPU design methods. The speed you are seeing today is that of a softcore running in a relatively low-spec consumer FPGA. There is little that would stop the core from running at 1.5 or 2 GHz with some fat caches if implemented in an ASIC. If that doesn't get you thinking about the potential of the core, I don't know what gets you thinking.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by tomcat666

So for what I would want I don't think there is any licencing involved, or ?

Yes you would, because the Vampire needs to come with a ROM, and if that ROM is a 3.x, it needs to be licensed.

Originally Posted by eXeler0

@akira my point is the same as dirkies. . let us choose, a unanimous decision will never happen.

"Let us choose" means the license has to be paid for anyway by the Vampire team. It's not like the team has to buy licenses as they are used. There's no point in letting you choose because you either license it or not, and if you do for one person, you might as well do it for all, at which point there's no real reason to have an AROS option (because it will not be cheaper for the buyer, and the damage would have been done already: license vultures got their pay-off)

[NorthWay]

Am I the only one troubled by a (non-documented so far AFAICT) need to patch kickstart to work?

A product that can't use my own cooked KS is of little value to me. But I am not the common case.

[kipper2k]

Originally Posted by NorthWay

Am I the only one troubled by a (non-documented so far AFAICT) need to patch kickstart to work?

A product that can't use my own cooked KS is of little value to me. But I am not the common case.

there are patches in the kickstart to fix the bugs in a 3.1KS, if people use their own custom kickstarts then the chances of bricking the core is higher and only a usb blaster will restore it. its a shame your cooked kickstart prevents you from experiencing a much faster system

[tomcat666]

Originally Posted by Akira

Yes you would, because the Vampire needs to come with a ROM, and if that ROM is a 3.x, it needs to be licensed.

Ok, I hear what you are saying, but most of the people will (probably) be satisfied with whatever ROM is inside their A600 now, why couldn't the vampire just use that - or the customer provides a ROM file for you. I don't see any issues with that. And you could easily prevent bricking by checking the checksum of the ROM and using only the ones you support and give an error on the rest. Really not sure why this expensive licensing is needed at all...

[Overflow]

If you listen to BigGun here; http://amicast.ppa.pl/podcast/AMIcast_Episode_10.mp3

He mentions the ability to switch between AROS and AOS (rather far out into the podcast).
Not sure if its a feature they have working atm, or just a hypotetical scenario.

As for lisensing; the Apollo Team got bigger plans for the Vampire in the future in terms of features, and the AOS have severe limitations in that regard. Hence the talk about Picasso96 for example.

[NorthWay]

Originally Posted by kipper2k

its a shame your cooked kickstart prevents you from experiencing a much faster system

It's a bigger shame it just wont work straight out of the box. IMNSHO.

[kipper2k]

Originally Posted by NorthWay

It's a bigger shame it just wont work straight out of the box. IMNSHO.

what kind of alterations did you do to your kickstart ?

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by tomcat666

be satisfied with whatever ROM is inside their A600 now, why couldn't the vampire just use that

As said plenty of times by people from the Vampire team, the ROM needs to be patched to fix some bugs otherwise Vampire doesn't run.

Now, it has not been said that you can't use your own ROM, and this isn't possible, I also want to know, really. Why can't there be a functionality where on first powerup the Vampire (through some software) copies the 3.1 ROM from the computer (if present), patches it and flashes it to the Vampire.

However let's keep in mind most A600s come with 2.0x, so unless they have been upgraded to 3.x, you still need a new ROM anyway. You may have, but I am sure most people who are now thinking of getting an A600 just to get Vampire will get 2.0x machines and would be like "what, I also have to update the ROM?".

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Akira

However let's keep in mind most A600s come with 2.0x, so unless they have been upgraded to 3.x, you still need a new ROM anyway. You may have, but I am sure most people who are now thinking of getting an A600 just to get Vampire will get 2.0x machines and would be like "what, I also have to update the ROM?".

Im one of thise who got a 600 just for the Vampire and my first reaction was, "now that I'm gonna put new hardware into this old machine let's first make sure it at least has the latest ROM... so I got the 3.1 ROM just to bring it up to speed. It's not like I was looking forward to using "world's fastest Amiga" with stock WB2.0 on it anyway.
Now.. the next Vampire is for the 500 so plenty of 1.2 and 1.3 ROMs out there.. Does anyone seriously expect new hardware to work with those ROMs? I wouldn't... 😆