Cloanto are changing the Kickstart ROMs yearly?

Foebane · 17 March 2018, 09:07

What on earth could they be changing??? They should be set in STONE forever more! I can only imagine it's the date or something.

If they are changing anything else about the ROMs, they risk breaking compatibility, if they haven't already.

It must explain why my experience of emulation on Amiga Forever was so incredibly poor, with corrupted visuals and sound and even crashes, but only sometimes. It made me think for a long time that WinUAE was unreliable, until I ran it by itself.

ptyerman · 17 March 2018, 09:15

Yes they keep changing it and do a bad job of it as you found out.
Luckily, in Amiga Forever there is two different sorts of ROM's, (there is in the PLUS version), one is their OS3.xx nonsense that usually breaks everything and there is the original 500,600,1200,4000, etc ROM sets in there. Always choose one of those and you should be OK.

malko · 17 March 2018, 09:53

There is also this possibility if you don't have access to original ROM http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/in...-desktop-amiga

Foebane · 17 March 2018, 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko

There is also this possibility if you don't have access to original ROM http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/in...-desktop-amiga

No thanks, I'll just stick with my 2012 ROMs from Amiga Forever and not bother with Cloanto anymore.

ExiE · 17 March 2018, 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foebane

No thanks, I'll just stick with my 2012 ROMs from Amiga Forever and not bother with Cloanto anymore.

That's what bothers me, in fact: how did a tiny, TINY Italian company with such a silly name as Cloanto end up being in sole charge of all Amiga-related hardware and software? I think their so-called self-importance have gone to their brains. And why do I call them small? Because I never ever heard of them prior to releasing their stupid paint software, which doesn't even support HAM unlike DPaint.

Chill out. Name at least one Amiga company that is not tiny tiny for last 20 years... And PersonalPaint was far from stupid, it is probably matter of personal preferences.

malko · 17 March 2018, 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foebane

No thanks, I'll just stick with my 2012 ROMs from Amiga Forever and not bother with Cloanto anymore.

Why not?
If someone is only looking for the Kickstart ROM and not a full package, the € 9.24 from Hyperion (Rom 3.1 (& 1.3 for free)) is worth the thinking compared to the € 24.27 from Cloanto's package.

And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the claim Cloanto made against Hyperion is related to such things...

ptyerman · 17 March 2018, 11:18

Why should he? He already has Cloanto's package with the ROM's, why would anyone waste money buying the ROM again?
His post is in the Amiga Forever support section after all!

malko · 17 March 2018, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptyerman

Why should he? He already has Cloanto's package with the ROM's, why would anyone waste money buying the ROM again?
[...]

Who should what ? I said : "If someone...".
Looks like you unsheathe answers faster than Lucky Luke his gun

.
Don't show too much enthusiasm!

.

ptyerman · 17 March 2018, 12:06

You preceded the "if someone" with "why not?"
Maybe it's a language barrier problem but the "why not?" implies you think he should buy it.
I just just stated why? because he already has it, no need to buy it twice.

malko · 17 March 2018, 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptyerman

You preceded the "if someone" with "why not?"
Maybe it's a language barrier problem but the "why not?" implies you think he should buy it.
I just just stated why? because he already has it, no need to buy it twice.

Ok, I concede you that my "why not?" was not ideal. You got the point

.

ptyerman · 17 March 2018, 12:24

Yeah, sorry if I came across as pedantic, it was unintentional.

malko · 17 March 2018, 12:41

Foebane · 17 March 2018, 13:40

Don't fight on my account, people!

Another problem I had with Amiga Forever is that it seemed I could never upgrade WinUAE past the version that came with AF2012 (which I had) and thus I put the unstable performance down to an older version of WinUAE being used. If Cloanto had used their modified ROM for the A500 and A1200 and so forth, then it's possible that would explain it.

All I know is that one day I decided to just take the Kickstarts and Workbench ADFs (which were in a folder called Shared) together with a full install of Workbench as Windows files (exactly what one shouldn't do!) and used the latest WinUAE by itself, and lo and behold, all the problems I had with the AF frontend went away. I also had full control of what I wanted in my configuration.

I still had a problem with Workbench in that it looked different when ripped away from the AF folder, but eventually I ditched that too and went with ClassicWB from Bloodwych. I've also had one hell of a (re)learning curve, but now I feel more confident in the way Amigas need to be configured and used.

All I have left of AF is the Kickstarts and Workbenches (no awful frontend) and I'm perfectly happy thankyouverymuch.

EDIT: Actually, I tell a bit of a fib. I also have the two DVDs that came with the top-end Amiga Forever 2012 release, and such fascinating documentaries, from the launch of the Amiga to the failure of Commodore. Those two discs go extremely well together with The Amiga Years from Bedrooms to Billions. A must-have collection for any true Amiga fan!

AmigaBoy · 17 March 2018, 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko

There is also this possibility if you don't have access to original ROM http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/in...-desktop-amiga

Or for just USD $1.99 are the Amiga Forever Essentials from Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...sentials&hl=en

Yeah it's the Cloanto Kickstarts but that's a really cheap way to stay legal. As an added bonus, it comes with Workbench 1.3 too.

Also this package was last updated in 2015 so it doesn't seem to be subjected to the yearly Kickstart changes.

honx · 17 March 2018, 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko

There is also this possibility if you don't have access to original ROM http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/in...-desktop-amiga

also have roms from cloanto. is there any way to get proper rom images without paying again?
next problem regarding hyperion offer: only contains 3.1 and 1.3 roms, no 2.0 or anything else.
and i would prefer commodore rome with original commodore copyright message. no hyperion.

malko · 19 March 2018, 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by honx

also have roms from cloanto. is there any way to get proper rom images without paying again?

The best solution is to grab them from real hardware.

Quote:

[...] i would prefer commodore rome [...]

I do prefer the originals as well.

Quote:

next problem regarding hyperion offer: only contains 3.1 and 1.3 roms, no 2.0 or anything else.

Considering that a lot of people do play games in emulation, KS1.3 is enough to emulate an A500. KS2* is rarely required for gaming. Then there is the KS3.1 to emulate an A1200.
When it comes to WB, KS3.1 is what is needed to run the latests WB (3.1, 3.5, 3.9, 4.1), except if someone wants to have the WB1.3 (as I do actually

) . So in this perspective I just think that the Hyperion offer is interesting.

I am not saying that this offer is the best among other, I simply reported that this offer exists. Choice is good. Furthermore there is no competition when there is no choice as monopoly has never induced competition...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foebane

What on earth could they be changing??? They should be set in STONE forever more! I can only imagine it's the date or something. [...]

I think the answer is here

.

@Foebane: Sorry for having mentioned Hyperion here. When I posted (post #3) I did not noticed that it was in an 'Amiga Forever' specific thread ...

* I did use the KS2 & WB2 back in the day but switched to KS3 & WB3 as soon as it was released. Also only for supporting Amiga companies, I did buy some of their software offers (dumb me ). Thus, I do own an original copy of Cloanto's AF...

PS: Frankly speaking, as I have original hardware (ROM) and software (WB), who sells the KS and WB is not important (Cloanto, Hyperion, C=, other...).
On the other hand, for Cloanto and Hyperion I can understand that this question has more importance. Nevertheless, as a last word, I think they should STOP going to court (who began is not important), and invest the money they spend on court in new solutions/hardware/software for the Amiga community (and not only tweaking a rom and sell it as an impressive NEW package !).
Since too long Amiga related companies prefer going to court instead of proposing real new solutions. These stories have too much an air of deja vu...

Saghalie · 19 March 2018, 00:34

It's all moot anyway... Hyperion Entertainment no longer has a business license. So who knows when this will get straightened out.

AmigaEd · 19 March 2018, 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptyerman

Yes they keep changing it and do a bad job of it as you found out.

Does anyone know what aspect of the ROMs they are changing yearly and why?

dalek · 19 March 2018, 01:17

Dates & logos to maintain the appearance of ownership.

20 March 2018, 02:06

I can't think of a way to be more transparent about what ROM versions are included, or have been modified, than Cloanto have been:

https://cloanto.com/amiga/roms/

On this page you can see exactly which ROMs were included in Amiga Forever (rows hilighted in green), when they were introduced ("AF" column) and which ROMs changed (only the "3.X" ones at the bottom).

For hardcore conspiracy theorists, there is even a link ("Notes" column) to the list of changes for the 3.X set:

https://www.amigaforever.com/kb/16-125

17 March 2018, 09:07	#1
Foebane Banned Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Cardiff, UK Age: 51 Posts: 2,871	Cloanto are changing the Kickstart ROMs yearly? What on earth could they be changing??? They should be set in STONE forever more! I can only imagine it's the date or something. If they are changing anything else about the ROMs, they risk breaking compatibility, if they haven't already. It must explain why my experience of emulation on Amiga Forever was so incredibly poor, with corrupted visuals and sound and even crashes, but only sometimes. It made me think for a long time that WinUAE was unreliable, until I ran it by itself.

17 March 2018, 13:40	#13
Foebane Banned Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Cardiff, UK Age: 51 Posts: 2,871	Don't fight on my account, people! Another problem I had with Amiga Forever is that it seemed I could never upgrade WinUAE past the version that came with AF2012 (which I had) and thus I put the unstable performance down to an older version of WinUAE being used. If Cloanto had used their modified ROM for the A500 and A1200 and so forth, then it's possible that would explain it. All I know is that one day I decided to just take the Kickstarts and Workbench ADFs (which were in a folder called Shared) together with a full install of Workbench as Windows files (exactly what one shouldn't do!) and used the latest WinUAE by itself, and lo and behold, all the problems I had with the AF frontend went away. I also had full control of what I wanted in my configuration. I still had a problem with Workbench in that it looked different when ripped away from the AF folder, but eventually I ditched that too and went with ClassicWB from Bloodwych. I've also had one hell of a (re)learning curve, but now I feel more confident in the way Amigas need to be configured and used. All I have left of AF is the Kickstarts and Workbenches (no awful frontend) and I'm perfectly happy thankyouverymuch. EDIT: Actually, I tell a bit of a fib. I also have the two DVDs that came with the top-end Amiga Forever 2012 release, and such fascinating documentaries, from the launch of the Amiga to the failure of Commodore. Those two discs go extremely well together with The Amiga Years from Bedrooms to Billions. A must-have collection for any true Amiga fan! Last edited by Foebane; 17 March 2018 at 14:23.

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17 March 2018, 09:15	#2
ptyerman Registered User Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Worksop/UK Age: 59 Posts: 1,328	Yes they keep changing it and do a bad job of it as you found out. Luckily, in Amiga Forever there is two different sorts of ROM's, (there is in the PLUS version), one is their OS3.xx nonsense that usually breaks everything and there is the original 500,600,1200,4000, etc ROM sets in there. Always choose one of those and you should be OK.

17 March 2018, 09:53	#3
malko Ex nihilo nihil Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: CH Posts: 4,856	There is also this possibility if you don't have access to original ROM http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/in...-desktop-amiga

17 March 2018, 11:18	#7
ptyerman Registered User Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Worksop/UK Age: 59 Posts: 1,328	Why should he? He already has Cloanto's package with the ROM's, why would anyone waste money buying the ROM again? His post is in the Amiga Forever support section after all!

17 March 2018, 12:06	#9
ptyerman Registered User Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Worksop/UK Age: 59 Posts: 1,328	You preceded the "if someone" with "why not?" Maybe it's a language barrier problem but the "why not?" implies you think he should buy it. I just just stated why? because he already has it, no need to buy it twice.

17 March 2018, 12:24	#11
ptyerman Registered User Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Worksop/UK Age: 59 Posts: 1,328	Yeah, sorry if I came across as pedantic, it was unintentional.

17 March 2018, 12:41	#12
malko Ex nihilo nihil Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: CH Posts: 4,856

19 March 2018, 00:34	#17
Saghalie Registered User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: FT Lewis, WA Posts: 374	It's all moot anyway... Hyperion Entertainment no longer has a business license. So who knows when this will get straightened out.

19 March 2018, 01:17	#19
dalek Registered User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: NSW/Australia Posts: 462	Dates & logos to maintain the appearance of ownership.

20 March 2018, 02:06	#20
LadyJane85 Posts: n/a	I can't think of a way to be more transparent about what ROM versions are included, or have been modified, than Cloanto have been: https://cloanto.com/amiga/roms/ On this page you can see exactly which ROMs were included in Amiga Forever (rows hilighted in green), when they were introduced ("AF" column) and which ROMs changed (only the "3.X" ones at the bottom). For hardcore conspiracy theorists, there is even a link ("Notes" column) to the list of changes for the 3.X set: https://www.amigaforever.com/kb/16-125

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