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Old 18 May 2019, 21:24   #61
gulliver
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@IanS

Hi, just to let you know that a court has recently determined that AmigaOS 3.1.4 is legal to sell. The documents have been made public. That is why it is still for sale and Cloanto cannot do anything about it anymore.

Now, that said, how will the lawsuit end, we really don't know, and can only guess at best as anyone else.

Then, Cloanto will not be able to legally incorporate all the changes made in 3.1.4 as some are personal contributions and Hyperion only holds an untransferable license for them. They don't own them. So Cloanto will need to ask and negociate with each and every of the contributors involved.

Lets hope these two companies come to their senses and settle down this dispute in a more amicable manner.
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Old 18 May 2019, 23:14   #62
malko
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@IanS : check here the document
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Old 19 May 2019, 00:26   #63
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Mike Battilana Interview 2019

In case of court deciding that Hyperion are not in right of OS 3.1.whatever, how would personal contributions be legal in the first place?

For example, under what license has Thomas been able to work on Amiga Shell from OS 3.1? He always stated that he is not the owner, but merely a contributor, so who would be the owner of what Thomas has contributed?
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Old 19 May 2019, 10:36   #64
grond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
@IanS

Hi, just to let you know that a court has recently determined that AmigaOS 3.1.4 is legal to sell.
No. The court has decided that there is no reason to stop sales for the time of the procedure during which the court will decide whether 3.1.4 is legal or not. In the end it will either be declared legal or illegal but that has not happened yet.
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Old 19 May 2019, 18:49   #65
Thomas Richter
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
For example, under what license has Thomas been able to work on Amiga Shell from OS 3.1?
You mean, 3.9 then. The shell development was done as part of the Os 4 development license, and hence under permission of Hyperion, i.e. the right was derived from their license. Should this license be revoked, the rights for making the shell update - or its distribution - would have to be re-negotiated.
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Old 19 May 2019, 19:22   #66
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Originally Posted by grond View Post
No. The court has decided that there is no reason to stop sales for the time of the procedure during which the court will decide whether 3.1.4 is legal or not. In the end it will either be declared legal or illegal but that has not happened yet.
This is not well formulated.

<extract from the previously linked document> :
Quote:
[...] Plaintiffs move the Court to enjoin Defendant Hyperion Entertainment CVBA (“Hyperion”) from marketing, offering for sale, or selling certain software products titled “Amiga OS 3.1.4.” Defendant Hyperion opposes.
[...]
The Court finds this evidence speculative, vague, and unsupported by declarations of those who could testify with actual knowledge. Given all of the above, Plaintiffs have failed to demonstrate this essential requirement for a preliminary injunction and this Motion will be denied.
IV. CONCLUSION
The Court, having considered the parties’ briefing, the declarations and exhibits in support thereof, and the remainder of the record, hereby finds and ORDERS that Plaintiffs’ Motion for Preliminary Injunction, Dkt. #45, is DENIED. [...]
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Old 19 May 2019, 19:34   #67
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Denial of a preliminary injunction is very different to a decision that hyperion are allowed to develop and sell 3.1.4.

I'd be more favourable to Hyperion if they actually paid the developers. Thomas & Co are heroic in their commitment and should be adequately compensated for their time.
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Old 19 May 2019, 19:58   #68
kolla
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
You mean, 3.9 then. The shell development was done as part of the Os 4 development license, and hence under permission of Hyperion, i.e. the right was derived from their license. Should this license be revoked, the rights for making the shell update - or its distribution - would have to be re-negotiated.

So up to v45.39, it is the OS 3.9 developer license of H&P, and from v46 onwards, it is under the "OS4 license" of Hyperion? Creative.
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Old 19 May 2019, 20:17   #69
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Give it a rest kolla; you're like a f$%king broken record

...and actually start doing something for the community instead of criticising / hounding the last remaining Amiga devs!!!
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Old 19 May 2019, 22:59   #70
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
So up to v45.39, it is the OS 3.9 developer license of H&P, and from v46 onwards, it is under the &quot;OS4 license&quot; of Hyperion? Creative.
Are you again forgetting things? I *talk* to people. Hyperion received some results 3.9, but not all - in fact, many of the developments that were run outside of H&P. In case you wonder about all the legal licensing stuff: Amiga Inc. provided a developer license to H&P for 3.9, which outsourced that to developers. Amiga Inc at that time also provided a license to Hyperion, but the two disagreed later on the contract details, so that is where the trouble all began.

Should all the developement license move back from Hyperion to some other party, I will *talk again* to that party. Yes - talk. It's not so many people are actually *doing* work here (explicitly not you, just complaining about open sourcing stuff without actually wanting to write a single line no matter what license model it would be...)

I don't quite understand what is so complicated to get here.

Oh, I forgot. You don't really care. You're just making a rumble and complaining for the purpose of complaining. Silly me.
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Old 20 May 2019, 06:19   #71
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That looks like a "yes".
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Old 20 May 2019, 07:14   #72
grond
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Originally Posted by malko View Post
This is not well formulated.
Your extract actually says the same just in long-winded legalese...
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Old 20 May 2019, 10:21   #73
malko
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In my understanding, your formulation is ignoring the fact that the judge dismissed the plaintiffs on the grounds that "their arguments to stop the sale of AmigaOS 3.1.4" are without any basis in fact :
Quote:
[...] speculative, vague, and unsupported by declarations of those who could testify with actual knowledge. [...]
It seems to me it's quite different from
Quote:
Originally Posted by grond View Post
[...] The court has decided that there is no reason to stop sales for the time of the procedure [...]
But let's wait the result of the main court case.
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Old 20 May 2019, 12:42   #74
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Originally Posted by malko View Post
In my understanding, your formulation is ignoring the fact that the judge dismissed the plaintiffs on the grounds that "their arguments to stop the sale of AmigaOS 3.1.4" are without any basis in fact
The grounds why the sales ought to be stopped BEFORE the court has finally decided, not the grounds whether 3.1.4 is legal or not! This is precisely what a preliminary injunction is about. Do some background reading here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preliminary_injunction

If your mother language is not English, click on a different language on the lower left.
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Old 20 May 2019, 13:36   #75
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Originally Posted by grond View Post
The grounds why the sales ought to be stopped BEFORE the court has finally decided, not the grounds whether 3.1.4 is legal or not! [...]
If I understand you correctly, with the exception of your remark, no one here mentions the subject of the other case. There is no point in mixing all the subjects.

Here, the judges decided that the arguments put forward by the plaintiffs were seriously lacking in tangibility and therefore, contrary to the plaintiffs' wishes, did not require a withdrawal from the sale of the concerned product.

At a later date, depending on the decision in the main case, maybe a withdrawal may be/still will not be required, but, as today, no one knows what will be the decision in the main case.
Any other statement or implication is only speculation...
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Old 20 May 2019, 14:39   #76
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@thread

Should really post this in the legal thread, but since you are talking about the more recent court documents here, I'll bring them up to date:

Filed on May 16, 2019

Quote:
ORDER granting in part and denying in part Defendant Hyperion Entertainment CVBA's52 Motion to Dismiss in Part.
source document now available

Some interesting insights.

Additional coverage

#6
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Old 20 May 2019, 15:05   #77
malko
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Thanks for the info @number6
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Old 20 May 2019, 15:10   #78
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Originally Posted by malko View Post
Here, the judges decided that the arguments put forward by the plaintiffs were seriously lacking in tangibility and therefore, contrary to the plaintiffs' wishes, did not require a withdrawal from the sale of the concerned product.
Yes, because plaintiff could not show at least one of:

Quote:
1. That there is a substantial likelihood of success on the merits of the case,
2. That they face a substantial threat of irreparable damage or injury if the injunction is not granted,
3. The threat is immediate,
4. That the balance of harms weighs in favor of the party seeking the preliminary injunction,
5. There is no other available remedy,
6. That the grant of an injunction would serve the public interest.
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Old 20 May 2019, 18:26   #79
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
As an operating system, Windows 10 is relatively sane compared to AmigaOs, which is just outdated nonsense.
Outdated 'nonsense' for outdated hardware. Windows 10 on an A1200 would be insane.

Quote:
Today's users grew up with Windows, so they are used to it as well. For them, from that perspective, Windows 10 is a lot more useful.
Today's users think a cell phone is more useful - and they may be right. Windows 10 is a pig.

Quote:
First, you compare a GUI design with an operating system. That is not the same.
From the users point of view the GUI is everything - as it should be. The OS should be invisible.

Quote:
In fact, it offers such elementary features as multiple users
What for?

Quote:
or (gosh!) an internet browser.
The internet browser is part of the OS? Insane.

Quote:
It would be relatively easy to equip Windows 10 with a GUI that looks like AmigaOs - but nobody would want that today.
So why did Microsoft try to make Windows 10 look like a cell phone? Perhaps some people prefer simple GUIs with nice big icons and not much else.

Quote:
Ok, except you and a couple of other die-hards, but such people are in the minority.
So it's a popularity contest now? Anything that the majority don't favour is no good? Well OK then, did you know that the global market share of all Linuxes on desktop PCs is only 1.78%? That means Linux must suck compared to Windows 10.

Nobody can deny that Windows 10 is infinitely more sophisticated than AmigaOS will ever be. But sometimes sophistication is not what you want. AmigaOS has the ability to do useful stuff on hardware that Windows 10 will never work with.

And even on machines that Windows 10 should work on it often sucks. I have an HP Elite x2 tablet here that is practically worthless. Firstly it goes flat in a few days if not plugged in and charging. Second - and more importantly - it can't handle the app we want to run on it due to serious problems with the GUI.

Quote:
Its also a terrible idea, loading kernel code on transferring a storage device...

Great way to spread malicious code with removable media.
You know what's a terrible idea? Putting the entire OS on disk so malicious code can get its hooks into every part of it. Then put all the settings into a 'registry' that screws the whole system if it gets corrupted. And for the icing on the cake, sprinkle multiple scripting languages all over everything so malware has even more ways to get in.

Give me a ROM based OS that can always fall back to a useful state without having to reinstall gigabytes of bloated OS.
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Old 20 May 2019, 22:18   #80
Thomas Richter
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Today's users think a cell phone is more useful - and they may be right. Windows 10 is a pig.
That, of course, depends on what you want to use it for. A desktop computer has other uses than a cell phone. I would not want to type letters on a cell phone, or write programs on it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post
From the users point of view the GUI is everything - as it should be. The OS should be invisible.
That might be, but yet you confuse the windows 10 GUI with the operating system underneath.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post

The internet browser is part of the OS? Insane.
Microsoft delivers one, as part of the Os. I'm not sure why this is so insane, as it is probably one of the elementary programs you may want to use. After all, CBM also delivered MultiView as part of the operating system.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post


So why did Microsoft try to make Windows 10 look like a cell phone? Perhaps some people prefer simple GUIs with nice big icons and not much else.
Perhaps, but maybe you still confuse the Os with the GUI. Perhaps the misunderstanding is that M$ believed that an Os that comes with a GUI that looks like cell phone would be useful on a desktop. Perhaps that is not quite such a smart idea since at least I use my cell phone differently and for a different purpose than my desktop machine.



But that is all a matter of user interface design - and disputable. The AmigaOs user interface design is not quite adequate for today's purpose, but still "somewhat ok". The operating system underneath - is not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post



So it's a popularity contest now? Anything that the majority don't favour is no good? Well OK then, did you know that the global market share of all Linuxes on desktop PCs is only 1.78%? That means Linux must suck compared to Windows 10.
Perhaps it does. Linux makes programmers happy, not vendors nor customers. I'm personally ok with Linux, but I'm not the average user in first place. I'm a progammer.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post




Nobody can deny that Windows 10 is infinitely more sophisticated than AmigaOS will ever be. But sometimes sophistication is not what you want. AmigaOS has the ability to do useful stuff on hardware that Windows 10 will never work with.
What, then exactly, do you define as "useful stuff"? It is not quite useful for many purposes I have. It might have been quite ok for the 1990's, but for today - not really.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post





And even on machines that Windows 10 should work on it often sucks. I have an HP Elite x2 tablet here that is practically worthless. Firstly it goes flat in a few days if not plugged in and charging.
Why is this the fault of Windows? It has a battery. Wouldn't be any different with Linux. Your milage will vary, of course, depending on the degree of support, but AmigaOs has nothing (absolutely nothing) to offer in terms of infrastructure for power saving.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post






Second - and more importantly - it can't handle the app we want to run on it due to serious problems with the GUI.
I'm not sure what that means, and I don't know what you want to run on it, so I cannot judge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post







You know what's a terrible idea? Putting the entire OS on disk so malicious code can get its hooks into every part of it.
That's actually a good idea - even necessary as soon as the Os grows complex enough such that updating it becomes necessary.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post








Then put all the settings into a 'registry' that screws the whole system if it gets corrupted.
Under Linux, we call it /etc, under AmigaOs, we have ENVARC: It's not so much different, actually. It is, of sorts, a database of operating system properties. Having that in one place has certainly the advantage that there is only one place where you have to look, and only one syntax for it. Maybe a file system representation would have been nice. Linux has the problem that there are so many different ways how programs store their properties, and it is impossible to manage them globally. Not any different with AmigaOs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post









And for the icing on the cake, sprinkle multiple scripting languages all over everything so malware has even more ways to get in.
Hmm. bash, python, perl. Check. Shell, Rexx. Check.


The problem is not having scripting languages. You need something like this, anyhow. The problem is that you need some sort of priviledge system to control access to system properties that are core to the system. Windows has it. Linux has it. AmigaOs? Nada, nothing. On Windows and Linux, there is at least a defense line for malicious code. On AmigaOs? Oh well....




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post










Give me a ROM based OS that can always fall back to a useful state without having to reinstall gigabytes of bloated OS.

Android? Firmware reset? Windows, Recovery partition?


An Os defined by upgradable software is better to handle than having a ROM. How would you change a ROM on a smartphone, in first place? They come with flash... And once you have flash: Does it really matter whether that's a SSD (also flash) or Flash ROM?



In the end, only the procedure how the Os protects itself against malicious software matters, and how the user can update it. "Recovery partitions" are not such a novel thing, after all.
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