Which Amiga dungeon crawler RPG should I play ?

[ransom1122]

Come on everybody, let's all join and do a War Cry together! EEEYaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by matthey

Monster Regeneration in DM is usually because of a player action like a switch so it is not too annoying.

Monster generators are normally invisible pressure plates. You step on some cell and it generates a monster on some other cell. Then the generator gets disabled for a while.
This is bearable on DM1, but on DM2 it's the constant flood in some areas, even if you don't move...

Originally Posted by matthey

Meynaf even added an inscription on the wall like "supplies" to one of his maps where you step on a pressure plate to regenerate screamers. His maps and puzzles are well designed being competitive with the original DM at times. Play his original DM map (if you have AmigaOS 3.x) as it has advantages like being more system friendly, no copy protection, HD installable, magic mapping, drinking from fountains without a container, clicking on walls to detect if they are invisible, etc.

And last version has integrated csb utility disk
It can also play the end sequence from the pc version.

Originally Posted by matthey

It is faithful to the original and mostly bug free.

What ? "Mostly" ? Speak if you know something

Originally Posted by matthey

The other big exploit is reloading if stat gains are not good. Meynaf was looking into fixing this by pre-rolling stat gains.

I use an average. When previously you had 50% chances of gaining 1 point, now you'll gain that point every two levels.

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

It really pays to learn their meaning rather than just remember the numbers.

Well, for some spells the logic is hard to find...

Originally Posted by ransom1122

Come on everybody, let's all join and do a War Cry together! EEEYaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!

Too bad this option disappeared in DM2.

[gimbal]

Originally Posted by meynaf

I finished the whole trilogy. The easiest is Ishar 2.

Are you kidding me? Ishar 3 was way easier to me; in Ishar 2 sometimes is really a guessing game just where the heck you're supposed to go next and on which island, with almost no hint at all. Ishar 3 at least usually points you in the right direction.

Of course it does have the really hateful moments where you can screw up and not be able to progress anymore, I can't remember if Ishar 2 had those.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by gimbal

Are you kidding me? Ishar 3 was way easier to me; in Ishar 2 sometimes is really a guessing game just where the heck you're supposed to go next and on which island, with almost no hint at all. Ishar 3 at least usually points you in the right direction.

Of course it does have the really hateful moments where you can screw up and not be able to progress anymore, I can't remember if Ishar 2 had those.

I finished Ishar 2 without knowing that the end boss was an end boss, and got surprised when seeing the end scene... On the other hand, the Ishar 3 dragon was not just another monster !

I also screwed up a few times more in Ishar 3 than in the 2.
In the 2 when you have explored some area, well, it's explored and that's all. In the 3, things have changed after you return and you have to reexplore every part to find "the" thing that you have to do.

[Overdoc]

Ok, time to re-surrect this thread....

Yesterday, a friend of mine and me finally finished Dungeon Master
(ok, he did the action, I only drew the maps.... )

It was a very nice game, with some great puzzles, nice monsters, etc.
This time we never really got stuck, nor did we experience any serious fighting issues.
We only had a look in the map/walkthrough very few times, in case we couldn't find out the purpose of a certain switch, etc., but nothing major. (we could have done it without those, anyway)

Now we have to decice what to play next ?
Since we are already used to the user interface/spells/etc., we are thinking about playing:

1) Chaos Strikes Back ?
2) Dungeon Master II - Legend of Skullkeep ?

Chaos Strikes Back is described as very difficult and non-linear by almost everyone.
But what does that mean? What does it make so difficult?
Does non-linear mean that dungeons are changing irreversibly when doing certain actions (activating switches, plates, etc.)?
And is fighting against monsters also very difficult?
We do have a quite experienced party by now (almost everyone in the party is on 'expert level' in his job ), and we could import this party in CBS, correct?

What exactly does CSB make a totally different playing experience than DM ?!


Regarding Legend of Skullkeep I find much less Information about how it plays etc.?
seems to be easier than CSB, but what about the gaming experience?
Does it play like DM, or different?
I read that there is more fighting (hordes of monsters?), and less puzzles?


Thanks a lot for any advice!

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

1) Chaos Strikes Back ?
2) Dungeon Master II - Legend of Skullkeep ?

You may try both. They play about the same as DM.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Chaos Strikes Back is described as very difficult and non-linear by almost everyone.
But what does that mean? What does it make so difficult?

It is not that difficult. I'm no hardcore player and could finish it with a reincarnated csb party

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Does non-linear mean that dungeons are changing irreversibly when doing certain actions (activating switches, plates, etc.)?

You can't lock yourself if it's what you fear.
Non-linear means you'll be constantly going from one level to another, which makes mapping a little tricky, and that you (more or less) choose in what order you do things.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

And is fighting against monsters also very difficult?

Nope. Monsters are exactly the same. You may just find more of them or at more difficult places, that's all.
The main thing is that you don't start with a wealth of equipment.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

We do have a quite experienced party by now (almost everyone in the party is on 'expert level' in his job ), and we could import this party in CBS, correct?

Yep. You can even alter your characters' portraits.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

What exactly does CSB make a totally different playing experience than DM ?!

It is not totally different. DM is a quite ordered dungeon while CSB is more chaotic, that's all.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Regarding Legend of Skullkeep I find much less Information about how it plays etc.?
seems to be easier than CSB, but what about the gaming experience?
Does it play like DM, or different?

It plays like DM, the basis is the same. Monsters behave differently (less aggressive but more vicious), some spells have changed, you walk in two-step mode, but changes are mostly graphical.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

I read that there is more fighting (hordes of monsters?), and less puzzles?

Not necessarily more fighting, but less puzzles yes, as the most part is done outdoor. Puzzles are however more innovative.

[Overdoc]

Thanks Meynaf!

Another question:
I read that all cracked versions of CSB are bugged in some way? (Betrayal version is playable, but crashes in endsequence?!?)
But someone mentioned that you did a 100% version?

We would like to use our DM Party, but we played in German (V3.6), while CSB is English, only.
Does this cause any issues when using the party in CSB?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Another question:
I read that all cracked versions of CSB are bugged in some way? (Betrayal version is playable, but crashes in endsequence?!?)
But someone mentioned that you did a 100% version?

All versions, probably not, but it's true it had a quite good copy protection.
I've made HD installer for CSB 3.3 but it's french version.

You may also use the custom version i made, but you'll not be able to import your party because of the save game format differences due to the automapper i've added.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

We would like to use our DM Party, but we played in German (V3.6), while CSB is English, only.
Does this cause any issues when using the party in CSB?

I think CSB exists in German too ?
Anyway, the saved game should work fine even though you may eventually have to rename the file.

[StingRay]

Originally Posted by meynaf

I think CSB exists in German too ?

That's correct, there is a German version of CSB.

[Overdoc]

Ok thanks for all the info.
I think V3.1 and V3.3 are even multilanguage (English, German, French), like Dungeon Master, but V3.5 is English only?

Can anyone point me to a good cracked or whdinstalled Version which is playable until the end, and also has a working endsequence?
(preferable German, but also English is fine as long as I can import the party from the German Dungeon Master 3.6 Version)

I think I even have an original 'somewhere buried' in my retro storage room, but I prefer to play from a crack to keep the original disks safe.

[Gaula92]

Originally Posted by meynaf

You may also use the custom version i made, but you'll not be able to import your party because of the save game format differences due to the automapper i've added.

WAIT: Is there a DM version with automap added too???? If not, would it be possible???

[gimbal]

I never really could get into DM2 much. It has a nice atmosphere to it, but it just lacks the level design of the original.

One thing that I find amazingly well-designed was the shopkeeper with the turning table and the value system for goods.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

I think V3.1 and V3.3 are even multilanguage (English, German, French), like Dungeon Master, but V3.5 is English only?

Not exactly, 3.x are usually multilanguage but the utility disk isn't (only the game is) so for CSB it's not exactly useful...

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Can anyone point me to a good cracked or whdinstalled Version which is playable until the end, and also has a working endsequence?
(preferable German, but also English is fine as long as I can import the party from the German Dungeon Master 3.6 Version)

Perhaps one is available from http://dmweb.free.fr

Originally Posted by Gaula92

WAIT: Is there a DM version with automap added too???? If not, would it be possible???

There is. But this version is multi-dungeon (can play DM, CSB, but also Theron's quest and a few others).
It can play DM and then convert the party to CSB without even saving the game
It's not exactly easy to setup for pure tech noobs, though.

Originally Posted by gimbal

I never really could get into DM2 much. It has a nice atmosphere to it, but it just lacks the level design of the original.

Well, it removes the frustration for not being able to go outdoor...

[Overdoc]

Thanks again, meynaf!

I found a mulitlanguage V3.1 on http://dmweb.free.fr/ (supplied by dmman) which does not say 'non working', so I hope this one will work 100%?!
And there is also a German Utility disk there (also supplied by dmman), which I could then use to import my German language DM party, right ?

Also, about the Betrayal crack of CSB:
From what I have read this version is completeable, but only the end-sequence does not work. So, would it be easy to fix it just by replacing the end-sequence from another disk?
Also, maybe it is just a bad dump? I have a Betrayal 2 disk version here which is not from the web.... Will better dump it to ADF.....

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

I found a mulitlanguage V3.1 on http://dmweb.free.fr/ (supplied by dmman) which does not say 'non working', so I hope this one will work 100%?!

You can know only by testing

Originally Posted by Overdoc

And there is also a German Utility disk there (also supplied by dmman), which I could then use to import my German language DM party, right ?

There's probably no reason why it wouldn't work...

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Also, about the Betrayal crack of CSB:
From what I have read this version is completeable, but only the end-sequence does not work. So, would it be easy to fix it just by replacing the end-sequence from another disk?

While it's possible this can work, it will not if the problem is located in the code (bug or bad crack) rather than in the data.

[Anachronist]

Now is the perfect time to get into Eye of the Beholder as the Amiga versions now have the VGA graphics thanks to some enterprising modders

[AmigaHope]

Originally Posted by Anachronist

Now is the perfect time to get into Eye of the Beholder as the Amiga versions now have the VGA graphics thanks to some enterprising modders

I wonder if they could use the same technique to make an AGA version of Legend of Kyrandia. I know it sounds strange because Kyrandia's a completely different genre, but it actually uses the same game engine as EoB 1+2! (This is why EoB 1+2 work in ScummVM)

Anyway figured I'd add my two cents to game suggestions here:

Crystal Dragon -- As mentioned, it's only two characters in your party, but the dungeon design is great and a lot of fun. Unfortunately it's possible to deadend your game in parts if you aren't careful with where you use keys vs. lockpicks (you can actually render a needed key inaccessible)

Evil's Doom -- By far the most story-driven of all the Amiga dungeon crawlers, with the most variety in places to go and things to do. Tons of interesting items to use, and trading/bargaining is a must. Can be made easier by exploiting the joke character Pentiumus early on to make a ton of money and get decent gear (dated Intel Pentium FDIV bug joke that nobody would get today). There are TONS of interesting potential party members with different backstories that you can recruit, although most people who know the game go with a minmaxed crew (especially the glass cannon sickly diseased mage girl who is the most powerful spellcaster in the game). The game never got a widespread release and the leaked versions were buggy, broken, and uncompletable, but the there are now bugfixed versions available online. The biggest complaints people have about this one are the 4th-wall-breaking writing and the mostly monochromatic dungeon graphics (dungeon artwork is 16 color, but everything else is 256 color).

Xenomorph -- My #1 favorite Amiga dungeon crawler. Great storyline but you have to read the novella from the manual to get the setting, and the rest of the story is told in text logs on disks you find in the game. Amazing atmosphere but no music and few SFX during gameplay. Game is completable but not all features were implemented in time for release (communicator, gas scanner are useless -- weapon balancing is a bit off and the .45 magnum you can find on the first level of the space station is OP). There seems to be a bug where laser weapons do more damage on faster CPUs. A ton of people can't figure out how to win because they didn't read the manual. (You have to replace all the burnt out chips in your computer with same-labeled chips salvaged from the base computer systems, but you break base systems when you pull certain chips e.g. doors stop working, you have to find a new copy of the O.S. and nav software, and you have to swipe antimatter from the station reactors to put in your ship's reactors.) Also a lot of people screwed their game up with going trigger happy with a particular enemy type that adapts to your weapons borg-style and saving while cornered by them. =P

[Minuous]

How about Citadel of Vras? Nice review/playthrough of it happening here at the moment: https://crpgaddict.blogspot.com

[Anachronist]

Yes I've been waiting on getting a more powerful Amiga(looking at you Vampire 4!) to really get into Evil's Doom. Such a shame it never saw a commercial release.

Regarding Legend of Kyrandia- maybe! It sounds likely. Maybe you could reach out to the guys and see if they'd be interesting. It would be very cool.