Get your head around this!

[keropi]

AFAIK, there is no chipset emulation on OS4 as of yet, so unless you use something like an OS4UAE port, there is no way to play games like that....

[Haakon]

So what you get is a PowerPC with a customised OS who has to emulate every Amiga-program it's using? Not sure i see the difference here between this and emulating everything through a ordinary PC?

[Mikey_C]

Hmm loads of points to deal with here, I'll answer them as best as I can...

Originally Posted by Retro Nerd

How much for the OS & the board?

That's a good question, the OS is gonna be rumoured to be about £50 to £100 ukp (final price has still not been set.)

The Board, i.e. an Amigaone would cost around $800 to $1200 USD which is waaay too expensive, besides, I have a feeling that there will not be anymore AmigaOne boads, It looks like Eyetech have thrown in the towel.

That leaves the new kids on the block, Troika, they are promising a new board the Amy'05 at around $400 to $800usd, (final price has yet to be set).
More details on their website, http://www.troikang.com - They reckon they will have made two production runs of this board by the end of THIS year.
(I am reserving judgement on that time scale)

Originally Posted by Haakon

Never really considered A1 with OS4, but i guess that would be a better (and a lot more expensive) choice. BUT: OS4 emulates games. Does the emulating function like WinUae (90% perfection) or is it like the real deal? (100%). Can i just run Kick Off, and it runs like my old A500 or do i individually have to setup each game (like Winuae)?

I am not the best person to answer this, I will say what I know and then, get you a more definitive answer from someone else later. E-UAE is WinUAE but for AmigaOS4 computers, so I guess it will work in a pretty similar way as what you are used to. OS4 will come with a backward emulation layer called Petunia, this will be very similar to the solution Apple used when they switched over from 68k to PPC. How good it is, I don't know, it will be released with the final version of OS4 (again, from what I know it will be out before this year ends)

Originally Posted by Haakon

So what you get is a PowerPC with a customised OS who has to emulate every Amiga-program it's using? Not sure i see the difference here between this and emulating everything through a ordinary PC?

Actually, you would be surprised at how many native AmigaOS4 programs, including games there are already, don't forget OS4 pre-release has been around for about 18 months to 2 years already, so people have been porting and writing stuff for a while now.

Take a peek at OS4depot to get an idea. those are freeware programs on there, but there are also commercial programs like SoundMed (Octamed 2) Audio Evolution, Hollywood (Scala but better - even has a scala plug in too!)
and quite a few more (which I can't recall right now) the list seems to grow by the week. Even some 68k Games have also been ported to AOS4 and now run native. It's an exciting time at the moment and will get even better when it's finally released.

I also suggest, you take a quick peek [here], as it covers a lot of stuff.

BTW, OS4 is now fully portable, which means, from what I hear, a version for PDA in the works - look here

Any more questions?

[Charlie]

Thanks for the interesting info.
In Os4 for the first time ever I'm sorely tempted to invest in hardware. Up to now my many hours of Amiga fun have been with the various emulators.
It's even pleasing to see other manufacturers showing interest. - Good for future confidence.
It wouldn't suprise me if there are many more like me who could greatly expand the Amiga userbase. Something of a small-scale renaissance?

But I'm not going to buy....

Although obviously more than fine for AmigaOS, I won't invest an a ppc mobo etc that won't be up to running other ( more bloated ) OS's+apps now & in the future.

Pegasos II would be the minimum spec I would consider - no chance for OS4.
Modern Mac box better still -no chance too I guess.

I suspect sadly a lot of potential customers like me are of a similar opinion.

Does anyone know of another PPC board that Hyperion may port OS4 to that would be worth investing in?

Sorry to sound a bit negative, my money is ready to be spent when the right setup is available.

[Charlie]

Many moons ago when I was more interested in RiscOS ( Acorn ) than Amiga, one plan mooted to improve availability of decent hardware was a native processor PCI card / processor socket card combined with a hardware abstraction layer in software to get the OS to run.
Think of it as Amithlon for OS4 combined with a PPC card in an x86 box. The software being rather simpler as no cpu emulation etc is needed.

One of the more powerful current RiscOS boxes is very much the culmination of this setup.

It would do me, and if implemented as an admittedly less-than-ideal pci card I'd end up with the solutions I'm after without yet more boxes to fill the house.

Just an idea....

Edit
More simply a stripped out Linux/Darwin/OSX kernel could also be used as an abstraction layer between OS4 and a PPC-Mac. This would help the twin headaches of driver development and Apple's reticence in providing hardware doc's on such a platform. I guess Bernie's been burnt too often to have a go?

[Mikey_C]

@Charlie

PPC Boards, whats wrong with the troika board? It can run Linux.
As to PCI on a card, yeah, sure, you wanna pay for development?

I could turn it around and say, why can't I get a PC on a PCI card? then I can run Windows from my AmigaOne

Although I already have MacOSX running on a seperate partition on my MA1

[Charlie]

Mikey_C
All quite fair comments, but don't take my suggestions too seriously - just my personal pipe-dreams....

troika board - way too underpowered for what I would currently put it to, never mind the near future. ( Apart from OS4 )

Linux - I reg try distro's, but for me Linux still isn't a viable OS. ( too many usability issues to be worth the effort )

PPC PCI card + H.A.L. for OS4 - pipe dream I know, but others may have had the idea too......?

Though highly unlikley I suspect my final suggestion of a 3rd party 'PPC-Mac Amithlon' based on Darwin for OS4 has the greatest potential for solving the issues as I see them:
Who makes up-to-date ppc boxes that run a useful alternate OS?
Apple aren't keen on foreign OS's written for their boxes or publication of specs.
Hyperion don't have the resources to write the many necessary drivers for Mac-native version(s).

For me the bottom line is the userbase badly needs expanding to be viable. I can't be the only one who is VERY interested in buying a real AmigaOS system for the first time. Equally I'm not going to buy into expensive hardware that will hold little in the way of alternate uses.
I suspect that many potential customers are of a similar opinion.
Sorry.

On the bright side I continue to buy software for 3.9 to run on my emulators. Here's hoping some of my thoughts aren't complete b*ll.

[Zetr0]

OKAY TIME FOR ONE BIG HISSY FIT ( I want my *boing* ball and I Wanna go home!!!!!)

Unfortunately I have to rant and lose it completely...
and it could mean completely... and this is why...

As I have read this thread, I had some Genuine interest in OS4 and then I went to the website and began to read more....

Oh dear was that a big mistake, i have been formulating this post for some time now, editing all the expletives out and the incoherent ramblings.


So let me take you back a few years when gatway threw the towl in... a company bought the Amiga rights...

For the next couple of years it was just a lable that was shamelessly prostituted to make any kinda of money.

I begged, pleaded, prayed and dreamed that an OPEN workbench would some day .... just some day would come to pass....
Did that happen???? Hell no they saw that the community had made this operating system incredibly useable after all baptised by our fire through 3 revisions and then susessive inconification themes, hell we amigans INVENTED desktop themes!!!!!

so there it was no OPen WB for us...


let me take to today, 5 years have just flown past...


so as an Operating System company what hardware plaform do you specialize in, after all you are a company (Amiga) so should you instinctively play to the largest market?

or to maximise profits from a small base touting a *SOLUTION* as a product that requires over top cost for hardware when cheap inexpensive alternatives exist? Hmmm sounds like the the same F*ck up CBM made all those *continual* years ago.

So lets see, the most prolific and i mean PROLIFIC CPU is the IA32 (intel pentuim) architectiure, infact this has been superceeded many times over, but still is the most mass produced CPU in todays market (including clones) (and according to most cpu manufactures will be for the next few years to come)


SO with this in mind does Amiga offer an OS4 for the x86 achitecture? its not as if an AMD barton 3200 or P4 3200 isn`t going to cope. If one wanted to make money with hardware as opposed to emulation they hit the nail on the head 4-5 years ago with a 68k chip (040 i believe) on a PCI card. Failing that what about including a boot BIOS on the card that isn`t hard to do!!!!! after all its nothing more then IO mem mapping and thats standard on mobos (if it isn`t it come with drivers(irq ones)).


please dont get me wrong my fellow amigans I LOVE motorolla, infact I have several of them, my first mobile phone was a moto (with the intel outside sticker on it) my second phone was an AMD 486sx33 base phone.. but thats another story... and today, well today includes work and UNI so its MDA and the *cost effective* solutions is an IXA232 (risc based intel pentium) at 400Mhz, and hell to geek out on it I installed a SNES, LYNX and AtariST emulator.... couldn`t find an amiga one yet that worked (

back to the post.....


WHy is Workbench or Amiga OS Sooooooooooooo elusive for the x86 architecture, with todays standards its both damn damn cheap and seriously quick!?!?!?!?!?!?!

So does Amiga create an open source project for its *community*, HELL NO instead it uses the *community* as a selling point... yes i said THEY SELL US dont believe me tell me your thoughts on this, we are the community, we make what is, is. so obviously AMIGA feels they have the rights to the community too, GRRRGRGRGRGRGRRRRRR

*quote:

Work with AmigaOS4.0 and you have the attention of the Amiga community - enthusiastic individuals self-motivated to provide an expert focus group and a pool of talent that can be drawn from.

*source:http://os4.hyperion-entertainment.bi...&id=16&Itemid=

bottom right hand paragraph
-----------------------------------------------------

I could quote more but the more i quote the sicker i become, me, my friends, my fellow amigans treated as a resource when were are basically IGNORED otherwise... GRRRRR

( I HAD TO REALLY DELETE A LOT HERE )

okay.. time to cool for a sec.

So what do Amiga do to ensure the survival of OS4 and you know lets say give back to the community, a version for PPC as opposed the G4, these are generaly costly chips that nowdays are over priced for the work they can do compared to a cost effective solution so here we go again my friends more "propriatety hardware - software solutions".

why can WE not have native x86 support!? What is Sooooo tabooo about it!?


I dont want some over expensive G3/G4

I dont want some obscure PPC derivative..

I dont care presonaly about the cold fire (even though its cool)

What i do care about is my community... in all its glory, and the way forward is to use the mass products of the market not try and re-invent a base computer sheesh, thats what consoles are all about!!!!!

Its a shame, I cannot be the only Amigan in pain... this OS4 is an affront to my good nature.

[Mikey_C]

This argument has been done to death before. the answer, goes something like this..

"I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
"`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

In pretty much the same way, the Amiga Operating system requires it's own faith for without PPC it will cease to exist.

Back in the midst of time (If I recall correctly) there lay another operating system called BeOS It too would install onto x86 alongside your Wintel partition and it too was a very good OS based on the original AmigaOS.

What happened? it died.

The argument went something like this...
"I want to play a game" - Boots into windows.
"I want to use MSN" - Boots into Windows.
"I want to check my hotmail" - Boots into windows.
"I want to use my webcam" - Boots into windows.

"Oh dear, I am running out of disk space, hmm, I don't use BeOS much, I'll delete it and free up some space"

and pretty much, that's why, such a good OS died on x86.

Now, with Amiga OS, if we don't want it to suffer a similar fate, has to be on it's own PPC architecture, Meaning that, if you spend £$€ on it, you may be tempted to use your investment and not leave it there gathering dust.

AmigaOS requires a bit of faith and some devotion to it, those who are faint of heart, should steer well away.

As to the x86 vs PPC Speed debate, it has been done to death already elsewhere, All I will say is that OS4 is fast, bloody fast, faster than my PC with Windows XP, (Barton Core) Athlon Based Chip with 512mb ram etc, etc.

I have thrown this out to many ppl here before, if you are in the UK and wanna see (and try) OS4 in action and you are in either, the London area or the Peterborough Area, contact me and you can come and see OS4 on my PPC based machine, at one of the usergroups meetings in those areas very soon.

[Zetr0]

Heys Mickey_C

Yeah Hitch Hikers is cool, *the movie....eh...not so much*
and BeOS was very limmited to what WB stuff it could run (i haveBeOS and another that you dont see often QNX) *i collect OS's strange and sad but hey... its a hobby*

anyways you mean BLIND faith ? or Obsesive devotion ?

Hmmm you know i did have them once... i did...

but i found out that tooo many people profited and cashed in from it and left me in the dark with a lot of broken promises (not going to mention Haage and P or cbm or gateway etc... ooops)

Faith, oh brother, I have an unshakable faith in the community, devotion, sheesh this Board gets more time than a lot of my projects (usually rates 3 in the number of things to do)

For me my brother amigan, the community made the computer (community also = developers and game / demo writers) so the machine provided the platform and the community provided the glue, the entertainment and the inspiration to carry Amiga thusfar...

and to thank us for OUR devotion, OUR inspiration they

(a) use the community as a selling point for entry to the mobile / SFF market
(b) likely to charge £50/100 for an OS that only works on expensive NON cost effective
components
(c) NO OPEN WB

my friends, this isn`t a thank you... OS4 comes across as a direct smack in the face!

and the truth is... if i wanted a Windows PC i have 8 of them, i want an AmigaOS PC using all the yummy inexpensive equipment out today.. otherwise Amiga might as well packup and go home..

Invest in hardware that:
(a) has not determined future
(b) some what shakey past and
(c) an OS that has to emulate to get the real good things rolling... hmmm

are you sure thats an investment? investments are expected to have a return on them, not to wash away after a brief factor of fun.

Its plainly obvious why NO x86 version isn`t avail... (no its not the HAL thats easy to implement after all Linux is free *even then its not that difficult* enough FREE hals exist for development within the x86 market

Is it the fact that cpu Chips cannot handle it? well if you believe that then you deserve what comes at you.

Its quite simple, they REAL way they can make money from us (SQUEEZE us more)is to sell the SOLUTION (hardware and software) and charge for a bit more on top.... yeah thats looking out for the community isnt it?

The second reason as to why theres no x86 version is the fact the would lose total control of the OS, its develpment and aim and direction. to many of us community would modify it to OUR needs and not what we are TOLD to do.

damn it why can we not demand it back for the people?????? I may just have to start a liberate WB thread, either that or get my decompiler ready and clear my schedule for the next few years lol.

[Mikey_C]

It just isn't gonna happen, Hyperion have invested a lot of time into this project, 4 years as a matter of fact. That costs a lot of money in terms of paying a few programmers (and yes there are a lot of part time volunteers)

AmigaOS requires devotion, and personally I am glad it's not available public domain so that people can get hold of it and modify it etc. we need a stable OS that doesn't need constant recompiling etc. Besides, I would like to be able to go into a shop one day (Pipe dream I know) and buy an Amiga title etc.

Unlike other open OS's where one person buys the product and the rest just pirate it.

I guess, we'll have to agree on disagree, I don't think making AmigaOS open source would take it any further to be honest.

[Zetr0]

Originally Posted by Mikey_C

I Guess, we'll have to agree on disagree, I dont think making AmigaOS open source would take it any further to be honest.

Tell that to the Linux Scene,

Allthough I do hear you the No. of possible distro's and compilations is a nightmare and anoying, but theres nothing wrong with a developers council or something to that effect were there is a stable platform, irrespective of the plefora of versions

Originally Posted by Mikey_C

Unlike other open OS's where one person buys the product and the rest just pirate it.

Oh dear oh dear.... piracy... if it can be read it can be copied, if you like the software you support it, blagged software is a mnoma insofar as software house *tout* how they get ripped off (£30 for software... hmmm think about it...)

there are many thoughts on piracy agumentatively you are not really taking away from them as in a *sale* for that person was not going to buy it anyway.

my personal view is some what escewd in this, if

(a) software could be a LOT cheaper then
(b) if you like the software support it, i have lost countless times a down load as
resulted in a purchase (FayCry to name one)

where one sits on piracy is a personal viewpoint.

Originally Posted by Mickey_C

It just isn't gonna happen, Hyperion have invested a lot of time into this project, 4 years as a matter of fact. That costs a lot of money in terms of paying a few programmers (and yes there are a lot of part time volunteers)

time invested into non-cost effective *expensive* hardware whereby an x86 equiv would of been cheeper both in development as well as implementation!! hmm volunteers dont get paid so they got ripped in a commercial way.

Not to mention C / C++ all you need is a compiler, sheesh 30years that language has been arround. all you as a developer have to do is develop a HAL for the custom chips for that legacy software that casues you so much head ache.. but hang on... why bother doing that... CPUs are cheap and fast enough to just EMULATE..

so really what am i paying for? a platitude ? i can emulate very well on my x86 and i dont need no £50/100 platitiude.

The only love i have left for the Amiga, is in the comunity, you, me everybody of it.. commercially speaking, OS4 will be lucky to break even by placing themselfs in such a specialist market, my hope atleast is that OS3.x goes public release GNU some time, as a thank you, but that wont happen..

simply because OS4 is not much more than OS3.x, if you look upon the list of included software that *makes* the OS4 distro you will find a lot of them started as community projects (hijacked me thinks) as well as the fact most are PD.

Hyperon are not savours worthy of devotion, they are capitalists willing to use the community as a selling angle to make money.

We give inspiration, a community sensus and blind faith and all we ask for is hope...

wheres OUR investment? the one we have all harboured? prey'd and whished for... you know the one longing to go back into the shops and see AMIGA software...

Everyone made their buck and moved on.. its time we took it back...

( come the revolution brothers and sisters.... come the revolution )

[mcbpete]

You speak a lot of sense my friend. I just can't see something like these projects ever working in this day and age.

[woody57]

So many applications on PC from smaller companies Ashampoo,Adobe etc release demo downloads which require a purchased key to fully enable.

The piracey arguement of "we daren't release it unless we sell the whole package" defeats the purpose of increased sales through useage arguement.

If an OS is going to impress it needs to be first hand "seen " working by more than a few devotee's so the costing arguement made by Zetro has some validity here particularly when it comes to existing Amiga users & those who have ppc machines already.

Since the main user of the "G" series processors has now abandoned that markets need for future development, it means the current permutation of A1 will remain at a high manufacturing cost for what it can do vs the common pC pricewise .....Sadly that is the yardstick used by many...cost vs performance.

If we were talking Cars its like comparing a Rolls Royce salloon to a Mondeo GX, they are both transport people from one point to the other but one is many times more expensive to buy & run than the other and it carries an exclusive ownership status with it.....the other may be common but it fulfills the need of many, is reliable & doesn't require a long search for common cheap parts to repair.

However the A1 is NO Rolls Royce it's a custom kit car at best, so the sales vs exclusivity badge still applies but it's never going to become a viable market product.

Since the EMU performed by WINuae is increasingly getting better the existing Amiga ethusiasts need MORE than just another emulated platform to encourage them to buy a REAL machine as opposed to virtual.

This threads ORIGINAL purpose is to let questioners actually "See what A1 & working OS4 " is about.

Mikey_C who is an Amiga enthusiast NOT a developer is doing a pretty good job of presenting a case to show WHY? we should look at the updated devolpments that have been so long awaited.

Since we know that there is currently another NEW Amiga machine in development Amy05, my belief is we should more be trying to look towards the hardware developers for answers & input than critising a machine which by any standards is NOW over 4years old, which compared to other machines developments is now out of date by any measure.

I see the A1 & 0S4 as a stepping stone rather than as a solution to increasing the profile of Amiga to new customers & agree that the financial squeezing of existing Amiga enthusiasts is NOT a good public relations policey as it alienates more than it encourages.

As a project A1 has reached its developmental target...the question is ? where do we go from here ?

[Zetr0]

Originally Posted by woody57

I see the A1 & 0S4 as a stepping stone rather than as a solution to increasing the profile of Amiga to new customers & agree that the finacial squeezing of existing Amiga enthusiasts is NOT a good public relations policey as it alienates more than it encourages.

As a project A1 has reached its developmental target...the question is ? where do we go from here ?

Good thoughts my friend, very good thoughts indeed..

[Mikey_C]

Hey, it is widely accepted by what's left of the Amiga community that this is just but the first step in a long road to recovery. From little Acorns big Oaks grow (or something like that)

To answer a point made earlier about open source, I would like to point out that the project for OS4 is being led by the frieden brothers who work at Hyperion. Now I don't know if anyone here knows this, but these guys are Amiga nuts through and through. They care about the OS they care about the community (the post regularly on Amigaworld) If they were just doing it for the money, they would have released it in some god awful state ages ago. Trust me, they want to get it as near perfect as possible before they have to release it.

Also, there are something like 40 odd Volunteer programmers working on various bits of the OS (or have worked on) this is very much a community effort, those programmers are Amiga users too. They know what needs to be done in order to make it as good as possible.

Yes, it's not open source, but this arrangement means that AmigaOS4 will be consistent, has commercial possibilities and is still being written by the community for the community.

Best of both worlds really :-)

The only downside is that you have to dig into your pockets and spend some money. Sadly, years of being an Amiga user, has made me see that of all the Computer users out there, those involved with Amiga seem to be the most reticent to part with money.

[Charlie]

Hmmmm....
Lots of interesting points. All of which have some validity I'm both happy and saddened to say.
That's Amiga I guess.

Quick point - I'd love an x86 AmigaOS as one of my beefs is the expensive and underpowered nature of the PPC hardware on offer compared the what I've already invested in. Hyperion's own OS4 site states clearly that the OS has been written to be portable and with interest+backing could be quickly ported to any platform.

I'd settle for a (good) PPC box because I assume 'OS4x86' would struggle with newer PPC software without yet another emulaton layer. Not good for a lightweight OS and not too good struggling software developers either.

Fantasy time again? - XBoX 360 - ATI GFX; PPCish multi-processor architecture; hdd; mass-produced and cheap. Enough IO to add keyboard etc. Sounds a bit like a modern A1200 to me!
With a fixed hardware platform related to OS4's current targets, not too hard to port?
It may even be in M$'s interests not to complain...... or ( please don't sacrifice me ) lend some support.

Um - don't seem to be good @ quick points.....

[Zetr0]

interesting Charlie, very interesting,

keeping a *light* emulation layer could provide a needed point to *sell* it, sadly there is not new software and games since all us amigans have left in the community is PD.

In truth this has been done on many home-brew X-boxes for some time using linux and e-uae to varing results.

I see the point of using pre-defined and existing technology platforms, and indeed some what intising to promote an existing console computer that has a large user base, however if this had presented itself with an OS about 7-8 years ago, i am sure things would of been different today most assuredly after all, why bother to develop for another system (commercially speaking).

*enter license agreements via produced software via platform hence SONY lol

Hmmm lots of portents and woe, hmmm

If AMIGA could develop a unified graphics architecture abstraction layer, combine this with current Hardware layers ( a small over head ), perhaps even considering a modular prehiperal driver structure on top of this (yeah simular to Windows and Linux) but we begin to have a modern 21st Centery OS.

Please dont get me wrong, the work Mickey_C brought in the images prove this can be done on a very modest cost, but as woody57 kinda hints on, we are already losing ground, the more it dithers the more *usable*(linux) or atleast more intrentched (windowz) becomes in the market.

perhaps after cooling and more so reading these continual posts i can begin to see the point Mickey_C and Woody57 both make, that OS4 is in itself an achievement (albiet a target from a developers standpoint) as well as a tenualbe and license product goal.

However as I have pretty much said in previous posts, I see a large down fall by pinning all hopes in some what serously outdated and over expensive technology, and releasing an Xbox or other Console compliaint version, although a cool idea would be throught with pit falls, not in the least licensing, as most consoles are sold at a loss to profit from the software licensing.

Although developing for an OS4 enabled existing system *should we say* would be a tantalising morsal for commercial exploitation since they can utilize an existing user base and obviously release software on systems without having to *ahem* pay for the privalige.

Hmmm food for thought, but more so i believe i REALLY need to cut down the size of these posts.

[Charlie]

Zetr0 - the voice of reason.

Mikey_C - I hope you haven't taken my comments to heart. I do appreciate your going to the trouble of demonstrating OS4's advantages - with which I agree.

Good God! I've done it! A post that doesn't read like War and Peace.