WHDload & Amiga-600 with 1MB expansion ?!?

Overdoc · 08 September 2008, 17:12

Ok, I wanted to ask this for a long time:

Does it make sense to install a harddisk with WHDload games on an Amiga-600 with 1MB expansion in the trapdoor (in other words, an A-600 with 2MB chipram) ?
Or does WHDload require more ram or other ram (fastram ? slowram?)

If yes, which easy possibilities do I have to get that additional ram ? I don't think there are any pcmcia ram expansions easy to get, right ?

Thanx for your help guys !

Visper · 08 September 2008, 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Does it make sense to install a harddisk with WHDload games on an Amiga-600 with 1MB expansion in the trapdoor (in other words, an A-600 with 2MB chipram) ?
Or does WHDload require more ram or other ram (fastram ? slowram?)

According to my experience, there are lots of WHDLoad games that need more than 2MB chipram, so a expansion is a must.

Quote:

If yes, which easy possibilities do I have to get that additional ram ? I don't think there are any pcmcia ram expansions easy to get, right ?

You can find them on ebay. This seller, for example, sells a 2MB PCMCIA card every week (I got mine from him for 15£)

You can also try the russian 8MB memory expansion (EAB thread here) or wait for rkauer's accelerator

alexh · 08 September 2008, 22:39

You'd be surprised how little RAM you need to get some WHDload games working. 1Mbyte is kinda on the small side. I found that 2Mbytes was good enough for a lot of games, especially with an ultra slim startup sequence.

gklinger · 08 September 2008, 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

You'd be surprised how little RAM you need to get some WHDload games working.

What about CPU? I've read so many references to how WHDLoad is better with an accelerator but nobody ever seems willing or able to say exactly why. Since most games are designed to run on a 68000, why would a faster CPU be of benefit?

Visper · 08 September 2008, 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

I found that 2Mbytes was good enough for a lot of games, especially with an ultra slim startup sequence.

From the games I tested and remember, Jaguar XJ220, Premiere, Prince of Persia, Shadow of the Beast III and so on needed more than 2MB.

Cammy · 09 September 2008, 00:01

Just about any games (as long as it's not AGA) on those CD32 WHDLoad compilation discs (CD32-200, CD32-444...) should work on a 2MB A600, but you'd have to make your own selector menu or run them from AmigaDOS (I think AGS is AGA only). These games usually need to be run with their own startup-sequence though, which AGS copies into RAD:, so if you could write your own scripts from Workbench that copies a startup-sequence for each game into RAD:, reboots, then runs the game.

Overdoc · 09 September 2008, 00:22

Well, my A-600 currently has 2MB chip (1MB onboard and 1MB in the trapdoor).
So, I can assume all WHDload version of the games on the CD-32 cmpilation cds don't need more than 2MB, right ? But I cannot simply copy them to hd because the startups are missing, right ?
hmm, that looks like a lot of work, but couldn't I simply take KG's WHDload versions of these games instead ? I don't need any menu, staring them from amidos is more than ok for me

also, do any trapdoor expansion with more than 1MB exist ? I don't think so because trapdoor mem is always chipmem, and it cannot exceed 2MB in total because of the 8375 Agnus, right ?

alexh · 09 September 2008, 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by gklinger

What about CPU? I've read so many references to how WHDLoad is better with an accelerator but nobody ever seems willing or able to say exactly why. Since most games are designed to run on a 68000, why would a faster CPU be of benefit?

In some places the WHDload dudes have put in extra code to wait for amiga chipset to complete. With 020+ this is fine because without them they would have run off and done the next thing before it was finished. However in some games, adding this extra code, on a 68000, slows it down too much.

I've only seen it on one or two titles, ususally only on the intro screen where they are using all the CPU horsepower to make a pretty attract screen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Visper

From the games I tested and remember, Jaguar XJ220, Premiere, Prince of Persia, Shadow of the Beast III and so on needed more than 2MB.

What do you mean "needed"?. Jaguar XJ220, Premiere and PoP work fine with 2MB. SoTB is a multi-disk game and so cannot have the pre-load tool-type.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overdoc

do any trapdoor expansion with more than 1MB exist ?

No.

StingRay · 09 September 2008, 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by gklinger

What about CPU? I've read so many references to how WHDLoad is better with an accelerator but nobody ever seems willing or able to say exactly why. Since most games are designed to run on a 68000, why would a faster CPU be of benefit?

Often the 68000 games/demos use SMC (self-modifying code) and/or don't wait for the blitter to finish. This needs to be fixed for 020+ CPU's and thus requires extra code which often will slow down the demo/game.

musashi5150 · 09 September 2008, 10:49

But of course some forward thinking WHDLoad installers have made parts of the patching optional with a CUSTOM tooltype to keep the best possible speed on 68000 systems.

No idea who that was though...

Visper · 09 September 2008, 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

What do you mean "needed"?. Jaguar XJ220, Premiere and PoP work fine with 2MB. SoTB is a multi-disk game and so cannot have the pre-load tool-type.

I tested again the games (latest version from KillerGorilla's packs and latest WHDLoad) with WinUAE and on my A600 and only Pop worked (strange because I clearly remember it didn't work before). Jaguar XJ220 and Premiere (without preload, of course) and even with a ultra slim startup-sequence didn't work.

I would like to know how you got them working.

StingRay · 09 September 2008, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by musashi5150

But of course some forward thinking WHDLoad installers have made parts of the patching optional with a CUSTOM tooltype to keep the best possible speed on 68000 systems.

No idea who that was though...

I have no idea either :P

Retro-Nerd · 09 September 2008, 14:29

Quote:

I would like to know how you got them working

Maybe with Fakemem.

http://aminet.net/package/util/misc/Fakemem

Mmh, not really.

Quote:

When run, fakemem should reset your machine and allocate 512K of available
memory as chip RAM, converting the remaining RAM to fast.
Works fine on A1200

alexh · 09 September 2008, 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Visper

Jaguar XJ220 and Premiere (without preload, of course) and even with a ultra slim startup-sequence didn't work. I would like to know how you got them working.

My games startup also includes add36k and removes all buffers (add buffers -999) on DF0: and DH0:

Chances are that I am using the original WHDload slaves and not the most recent version of WHDload.

I would also check your tool types for each slave.

Visper · 09 September 2008, 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

My games startup also includes add36k and removes all buffers (add buffers -999) on DF0: and DH0:

With those tips, Premiere now shows the intro but hangs after it and Jaguar XJ220 seems to load but very very slowly.

In my opinion, isn't worth the hassle and with a 2MB SRAM card I don't have to worry about memory issues anymore.

alexh · 09 September 2008, 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Visper

Jaguar XJ220 seems to load but very very slowly

I used to get this symptom on some WHDload games which were too big to pre-load... I am 50% sure I was able to work around it.

Thinking cap on.

NoResInt tooltype?

Wepl · 09 September 2008, 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by gklinger

What about CPU? I've read so many references to how WHDLoad is better with an accelerator but nobody ever seems willing or able to say exactly why. Since most games are designed to run on a 68000, why would a faster CPU be of benefit?

several installs have no working quitkey on a 68000 because they assume the automatic quitkey feature by WHDLoad itself which is only available on a 68010+

Wepl · 09 September 2008, 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by StingRay

Often the 68000 games/demos use SMC (self-modifying code) and/or don't wait for the blitter to finish. This needs to be fixed for 020+ CPU's and thus requires extra code which often will slow down the demo/game.

Although the present cpu can be checked by the slave and therefore it is possible to avoid these patches on a 68000

musashi5150 · 09 September 2008, 22:58

But there is the case of fast 68000 boards - like Adspeed or Supra28. Although the SMC might not matter so much the blitter waits could be important.

Wepl · 09 September 2008, 23:09

Hmm, yes correct. In case of a very fast 68000 this can be unreliable.
My approach would be that the install should work on every setup without setting any Tooltypes/options.
The best is then maybe a automation via the cpu detection, with the possebilty to overwrite this with a Custom option.

08 September 2008, 17:12	#1
Overdoc Commodore Collector Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austria Age: 53 Posts: 944	WHDload & Amiga-600 with 1MB expansion ?!? Ok, I wanted to ask this for a long time: Does it make sense to install a harddisk with WHDload games on an Amiga-600 with 1MB expansion in the trapdoor (in other words, an A-600 with 2MB chipram) ? Or does WHDload require more ram or other ram (fastram ? slowram?) If yes, which easy possibilities do I have to get that additional ram ? I don't think there are any pcmcia ram expansions easy to get, right ? Thanx for your help guys !

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08 September 2008, 22:39	#3
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,337	You'd be surprised how little RAM you need to get some WHDload games working. 1Mbyte is kinda on the small side. I found that 2Mbytes was good enough for a lot of games, especially with an ultra slim startup sequence.

09 September 2008, 00:01	#6
Cammy Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Tasmania, Australia Age: 39 Posts: 1,189	Just about any games (as long as it's not AGA) on those CD32 WHDLoad compilation discs (CD32-200, CD32-444...) should work on a 2MB A600, but you'd have to make your own selector menu or run them from AmigaDOS (I think AGS is AGA only). These games usually need to be run with their own startup-sequence though, which AGS copies into RAD:, so if you could write your own scripts from Workbench that copies a startup-sequence for each game into RAD:, reboots, then runs the game.

09 September 2008, 00:22	#7
Overdoc Commodore Collector Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austria Age: 53 Posts: 944	Well, my A-600 currently has 2MB chip (1MB onboard and 1MB in the trapdoor). So, I can assume all WHDload version of the games on the CD-32 cmpilation cds don't need more than 2MB, right ? But I cannot simply copy them to hd because the startups are missing, right ? hmm, that looks like a lot of work, but couldn't I simply take KG's WHDload versions of these games instead ? I don't need any menu, staring them from amidos is more than ok for me also, do any trapdoor expansion with more than 1MB exist ? I don't think so because trapdoor mem is always chipmem, and it cannot exceed 2MB in total because of the 8375 Agnus, right ?

09 September 2008, 10:49	#10
musashi5150 move.w #$4489,$dff07e Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Norfolk, UK Age: 42 Posts: 2,351	But of course some forward thinking WHDLoad installers have made parts of the patching optional with a CUSTOM tooltype to keep the best possible speed on 68000 systems. No idea who that was though...

09 September 2008, 22:58	#19
musashi5150 move.w #$4489,$dff07e Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Norfolk, UK Age: 42 Posts: 2,351	But there is the case of fast 68000 boards - like Adspeed or Supra28. Although the SMC might not matter so much the blitter waits could be important.

09 September 2008, 23:09	#20
Wepl Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 866	Hmm, yes correct. In case of a very fast 68000 this can be unreliable. My approach would be that the install should work on every setup without setting any Tooltypes/options. The best is then maybe a automation via the cpu detection, with the possebilty to overwrite this with a Custom option.

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