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Old 06 November 2017, 17:18   #1
meynaf
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Imager for Atari ST floppies

I thought all my floppy drives were dead and broken. I had 4, one can't be found anywhere and two are indeed totally out of order. But one accepted to work !

So I attempted to preserve that whole big old disk crate of mine.
Amiga disks could be read without problem (aside of occasionnal read errors, of course, but there were much less of them than expected).

However, even if reading files from ST disks is an easy task, making .ST (eventually .STX) disk images is something else :
- Small devcopy program does the work but can't get past track 79 (limitation of trackdisk.device or mfm.device or both, i guess).
- RawDIC wants a slave and i have none to give it.
- WWarp reads tracks in raw format, meaning it doesn't know what it is.
- MFMWarp reads tracks in raw format as well, leaving me with .MFM file i can't do anything with.

So i'm asking here if someone knows a tool able to do this kind of work (preferably in a simple way)...
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Old 06 November 2017, 17:44   #2
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Do many ST disks have data past cylinder 80?

You could try using the SPS dumping tool ctprog. Once you have the .raw files you could load them into the HxC floppy emulator format and save to .ST(X) files.
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Old 06 November 2017, 17:52   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_k View Post
Do many ST disks have data past cylinder 80?
Yes. On Amiga it's quite rare - if it ever happens - but on the ST it's common. I've seen disks going up to track 83
Of course that data isn't always meaningful but how to know if it is or not ? Better copy everything.


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Originally Posted by mark_k View Post
You could try using the SPS dumping tool ctprog. Once you have the .raw files you could load them into the HxC floppy emulator format and save to .ST(X) files.
The SPS dumping tool isn't public download and i doubt they will send it to me for things they either already have, or are cracked versions...
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Old 06 November 2017, 19:07   #4
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Omniflop will
  • Read and write Atari ST disk image files (‘.st’).
    Read, write, and format Atari ST DSDD and Atari ST SS (320kB, 360kB) formats.
    Read, write, and format Atari 8-bit format (90kB).
    Read, write, and format Atari STE formats (738kB, 800kB, 810kB).
    Read, write, and format Atari ST 820kB format
    Read, write, and format Atari ST Power Up Plus format (913kB) Note: This may require retries when writing!
I'm not sure of the number of cylinders implied by the extended formats.
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Old 06 November 2017, 19:26   #5
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If you wanted to do it on amiga you might be able to do it under Amatri, Emutos or PCTask.
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Old 06 November 2017, 19:28   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
The SPS dumping tool isn't public download and i doubt they will send it to me for things they either already have, or are cracked versions...
It is public: https://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?t=797
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Old 06 November 2017, 21:00   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prowler View Post
Omniflop will
  • Read and write Atari ST disk image files (‘.st’).
    Read, write, and format Atari ST DSDD and Atari ST SS (320kB, 360kB) formats.
    Read, write, and format Atari 8-bit format (90kB).
    Read, write, and format Atari STE formats (738kB, 800kB, 810kB).
    Read, write, and format Atari ST 820kB format
    Read, write, and format Atari ST Power Up Plus format (913kB) Note: This may require retries when writing!
I'm not sure of the number of cylinders implied by the extended formats.
Oh, no... Did I forget to mention i needed to do it on the Amiga because the one and only floppy drive that still works is there ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro1234 View Post
If you wanted to do it on amiga you might be able to do it under Amatri, Emutos or PCTask.
That's very possible but then it only pushes the problem one step : what software to run under these emulators then ?


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Originally Posted by mark_k View Post
Perhaps they should update their site
Anyway i got it and am currently testing it.

Seems it still needs its test results to be sent to the authors, but i guess i can just skip this part as i don't badly need copy protections to be duplicated.
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Old 06 November 2017, 21:10   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prowler View Post
Omniflop will
  • Read and write Atari ST disk image files (‘.st’).
    Read, write, and format Atari ST DSDD and Atari ST SS (320kB, 360kB) formats.
    Read, write, and format Atari 8-bit format (90kB).
    Read, write, and format Atari STE formats (738kB, 800kB, 810kB).
    Read, write, and format Atari ST 820kB format
    Read, write, and format Atari ST Power Up Plus format (913kB) Note: This may require retries when writing!
I'm not sure of the number of cylinders implied by the extended formats.
Omniflop rocks!!!

...many moons ago, I've used it often a time to create "FM-Towns" disk images
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Old 06 November 2017, 21:22   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DamienD View Post
Omniflop rocks!!!

...many moons ago, I've used it often a time to create "FM-Towns" disk images
... but it requires a PC with some floppy drive, doesn't it ?
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Old 06 November 2017, 21:42   #10
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Ok, first test done.
Did a few disks.
Copied some raw file made from an "easy" disk (where mere file copy is sufficient).
Then copied capsimg.dll to steem drawer.
Then ran steem.
Then tried to load the image file.
Then it didn't work - steem doesn't even see the raw image.
Tried renaming .raw to .ipf. Still no luck.
Will continue searching...
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Old 06 November 2017, 21:45   #11
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Apparently you need to have at least a 68020 plus some fast RAM to create good-enough dumps using ctprog.

But try dumping an Amiga disk and check if you can load it into WinUAE. Also make sure you're using the latest capsimg DLL since older ones don't support CT raw files.
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Old 06 November 2017, 21:52   #12
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If on Amiga, try to use Amtari emulator, and run msa archiver
https://sites.google.com/site/stesse...isks-tools/msa
later xad.library on Amiga or msa converter for Amiga or PC.
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Old 06 November 2017, 22:03   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prowler View Post
Omniflop will
  • Read and write Atari ST disk image files (‘.st’).
    Read, write, and format Atari ST DSDD and Atari ST SS (320kB, 360kB) formats.
    Read, write, and format Atari 8-bit format (90kB).
    Read, write, and format Atari STE formats (738kB, 800kB, 810kB).
    Read, write, and format Atari ST 820kB format
    Read, write, and format Atari ST Power Up Plus format (913kB) Note: This may require retries when writing!
I'm not sure of the number of cylinders implied by the extended formats.
Seconding OmniFlop. The STE/820k/PUP formats were my doing.
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Old 06 November 2017, 22:05   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_k View Post
Apparently you need to have at least a 68020 plus some fast RAM to create good-enough dumps using ctprog.

But try dumping an Amiga disk and check if you can load it into WinUAE. Also make sure you're using the latest capsimg DLL since older ones don't support CT raw files.
I can load these files in winuae, and even access the ST's files with crossdos (even though the dll's not seen when simply put in the winuae folder and i had to pollute the windows dir, lol).

However, still no luck with Steem...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
If on Amiga, try to use Amtari emulator, and run msa archiver
https://sites.google.com/site/stesse...isks-tools/msa
later xad.library on Amiga or msa converter for Amiga or PC.
If on Amiga yes, but IIRC Amtari needs 68000 so it won't work on my A1200.
Besides, what i want to see now is if these disk images can really work - TOS emulation isn't enough for this.
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Old 06 November 2017, 22:07   #15
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Quote:
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... but it requires a PC with some floppy drive, doesn't it ?
Yes, unfortunately so my friend

...and also cannot be a "USB Floppy Drive"; needs a proper FD controller.
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Old 06 November 2017, 22:10   #16
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Just use Amtari to create the images but I just remembered Amatari doesnt support Hard drives you can do it all with Dos tools under PC-Task but yes it is long and a pain that there is nothing for Amiga to do it.
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Old 07 November 2017, 02:57   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
I can load these files in winuae, and even access the ST's files with crossdos (even though the dll's not seen when simply put in the winuae folder and i had to pollute the windows dir, lol).

However, still no luck with Steem...



If on Amiga yes, but IIRC Amtari needs 68000 so it won't work on my A1200.
Besides, what i want to see now is if these disk images can really work - TOS emulation isn't enough for this.
No, some/last Amtari version works with 68030 and MMU (for catching accesses to Atari ST registers). If i remember right you have 68030 with MMU.
.
info taken from the net.

ST emulators
=============

Atari ST emulators abound, but most of them are very similar, written for the original 7 MHz 68000 Amiga, based on a minimally patched TOS image with scant documentation.

Ive used two which include versions of TOS. The original 140K task had German menus, but an update on Scope PD disk 149 was a bit bigger and worked in English, mostly. Apart from that, theyre very similar and incompatible with Workbench 2.

These tasks start by displaying a menu allowing you to pick the display mode from the three possibilities. Once youve made your choice theres no return to the Amiga, although you can reset by pressing both mouse buttons at once.

You need two floppy disk drives and at least a megabyte of memory for the emulation to start. Most GEM programs work, and you can read, write and format floppies, but disk and display handling have minor bugs; sometimes screen updates are incomplete and disk changes can cause confusion. Writing to floppies is rather slow.

Aminets ST4Amiga comes with assembler source, a program to save the ST ROM, in Pascal and ST compiled code, and a short document which says "Q: Whats the difference between ST and Amiga? A: About 14K". All the versions that Ive seen require a genuine copy of TOS 1.02 and lack support for MIDI and the ST serial port. It is compatible with Workbench 2, unlike older versions.

The most advanced and well-presented ST emulator is AmTari, on the Emulators Unlimited CD. This is a 1992 demo version, with a short German document and no upgrade details, but it has impressive features.

AmTari requires Workbench 2 and a copy of Atari TOS - either version 1.6, or the improved 2.06 release - plus at least 1 Meg of Amiga RAM, with 3 Megs preferred. The full version comes on two disks - one in Amiga and one in ST format - with a printed manual.

Unlike the rest it multi-tasks with Amiga programs. You can determine the amount of memory and CPU time available to the emulator, and the Amiga gets the rest. This neat trick requires memory management, and AmTari expects the 68020 or 68030 MMU, as in Amiga 3000s, rather than the revised 68040 or 68060 hardware.

AmTari works with 720 and 1440K floppy disks as well as the original 360K single-sided format. The registered version supports hard disk via hard files, which are slower than Amiga partitions but allow dynamic extension, so you need not fix the maximum size at the start.

Conclusion
=============

The ST emulators - more accurately, GEMulators - work best on old 68000 -powered Amigas, although 68020 and 68030 are supported by AmTari as long as youve got memory management hardware.
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Old 07 November 2017, 13:42   #18
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Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
No, some/last Amtari version works with 68030 and MMU (for catching accesses to Atari ST registers). If i remember right you have 68030 with MMU.
.
info taken from the net.

ST emulators
=============

Atari ST emulators abound, but most of them are very similar, written for the original 7 MHz 68000 Amiga, based on a minimally patched TOS image with scant documentation.

Ive used two which include versions of TOS. The original 140K task had German menus, but an update on Scope PD disk 149 was a bit bigger and worked in English, mostly. Apart from that, theyre very similar and incompatible with Workbench 2.

These tasks start by displaying a menu allowing you to pick the display mode from the three possibilities. Once youve made your choice theres no return to the Amiga, although you can reset by pressing both mouse buttons at once.

You need two floppy disk drives and at least a megabyte of memory for the emulation to start. Most GEM programs work, and you can read, write and format floppies, but disk and display handling have minor bugs; sometimes screen updates are incomplete and disk changes can cause confusion. Writing to floppies is rather slow.

Aminets ST4Amiga comes with assembler source, a program to save the ST ROM, in Pascal and ST compiled code, and a short document which says "Q: Whats the difference between ST and Amiga? A: About 14K". All the versions that Ive seen require a genuine copy of TOS 1.02 and lack support for MIDI and the ST serial port. It is compatible with Workbench 2, unlike older versions.

The most advanced and well-presented ST emulator is AmTari, on the Emulators Unlimited CD. This is a 1992 demo version, with a short German document and no upgrade details, but it has impressive features.

AmTari requires Workbench 2 and a copy of Atari TOS - either version 1.6, or the improved 2.06 release - plus at least 1 Meg of Amiga RAM, with 3 Megs preferred. The full version comes on two disks - one in Amiga and one in ST format - with a printed manual.

Unlike the rest it multi-tasks with Amiga programs. You can determine the amount of memory and CPU time available to the emulator, and the Amiga gets the rest. This neat trick requires memory management, and AmTari expects the 68020 or 68030 MMU, as in Amiga 3000s, rather than the revised 68040 or 68060 hardware.

AmTari works with 720 and 1440K floppy disks as well as the original 360K single-sided format. The registered version supports hard disk via hard files, which are slower than Amiga partitions but allow dynamic extension, so you need not fix the maximum size at the start.

Conclusion
=============

The ST emulators - more accurately, GEMulators - work best on old 68000 -powered Amigas, although 68020 and 68030 are supported by AmTari as long as youve got memory management hardware.
Nevertheless simple TOS emulation is insufficient.

News : i could use Hatari which accepts these raw files, but only simple case works. "Custom" format doesn't.
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Old 07 November 2017, 14:06   #19
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You cant create .ST images under TOS?
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Old 07 November 2017, 14:31   #20
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You cant create .ST images under TOS?
I probably can. I fail to see how it could help me with the backup, though.
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