Input latency measurements (and D3D11) - Page 6

Toni Wilen · 16 November 2017, 17:53

Fullscreen should now work normally after exiting GUI. (But display is still blank when GUI is open)

Dr.Venom · 16 November 2017, 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Fullscreen should now work normally after exiting GUI. (But display is still blank when GUI is open)

Unfortunately for me latest version (today 19:05) will now minimize to taskbar after exiting GUI in Fullscreen. Clicking on the icon in taskbar returns it to working fullscreen..

Toni Wilen · 18 November 2017, 16:08

Redownload and attach log if it still happens.

Dr.Venom · 19 November 2017, 09:06

Issue is still there, tested with winuae.7z from this morning. Logs attached.

Dr.Venom · 19 November 2017, 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Custom shader support can wait.

Toni, there have been some very nice developments in the WinUAE shader thread Corrected shaders for WinuAE, with guest.r providing some great progress on CRT shaders. To be honest previously I never had much interest in CRT shaders, since they never were any good imo. The latest CRT-Geom port for WinUAE however changes that a bit for me, as it seems to have the more important aspects of CRT emulation emulated well.

From what I understand to get the shaders further improved with some of the more fancy aspects of CRT emulation, like curvature and improved aperture grille / shadowmask emulation, we would need some enhancements to the shader support in WinUAE.

Issues that would particularly need to be addressed are commented on here: http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...0&postcount=44

Personally I have limited knowledge of the things needed to support this, but is it something you would be willing to invest some time / effort in somewhere down the line when implementing D3D11 shader support? Or would this require very specific knowledge of D3D11, for which you said you weren't really interested in learning.

Dr.Venom · 25 November 2017, 11:48

Quick question: is the current implementation of the non-vsynced (tearing) mode considered to be no buffering or double buffering or isn't that applicable yet (or known..)?

Toni Wilen · 25 November 2017, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Venom

Quick question: is the current implementation of the non-vsynced (tearing) mode considered to be no buffering or double buffering or isn't that applicable yet (or known..)?

I am not sure yet, it probably need separate option..

Toni Wilen · 03 December 2017, 10:17

D3D11 mode should now work with FEATURE_LEVEL_10 hardware.

mark_k · 03 December 2017, 14:23

Thanks. Seems to work fine with Quadro NVS135M (level 10_0) on Windows 10 1511 x64 and Windows 7 x86.

mark_k · 10 December 2017, 16:53

Out of interest, what did you have to change to get D3D11 mode working on feature level 10_0 hardware?

On my laptop I was slightly disappointed to find no tearing in windowed and full-window modes with D3D11. Not sure whether that's due to the older graphics hardware/driver or Win10 version. Too scared to update it from 1511 just yet.

Toni Wilen · 10 December 2017, 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_k

Out of interest, what did you have to change to get D3D11 mode working on feature level 10_0 hardware?

I don't remember anymore, it was something simple.

Quote:

On my laptop I was slightly disappointed to find no tearing in windowed and full-window modes with D3D11. Not sure whether that's due to the older graphics hardware/driver or Win10 version. Too scared to update it from 1511 just yet.

DXGI 1.5 (which introduced tearing option) was introduced in 1607.

mark_k · 10 December 2017, 20:15

I noticed a couple of problems testing D3D11 full-screen mode with 3.6.0b11 on my desktop PC (Windows 10 1709, AMD FirePro W5100).

With no buffering or double buffering, in full-screen mode I get a black screen with this output to the log over and over:
D3D11 Present 887a0001

Sometimes WinUAE falls back to D3D9 mode. It seems to do that reliably if I open settings, change full-screen resolution then resume emulation (and maybe sometimes if I change buffering setting). From the log output below it seems CreateSwapChainForHwnd() fails.

fs guimode 1
D3D11 free start
D3D11 freed3d start
D3D11 freed3d end
D3D11 free end
fs guimode end
WM_SIZE restored
D3D11_resize 1 0 1 (1)
WM_SIZE
D3D11_resize 0 0 1 (1)
GUIBase 821x626 (6x13)
GUIBase 821x626 (6x13)
Requested GUI size = 821x602 (1920x1080)
Got GUI size = 821x604
Notify error code = 80004005 (-2147467259)
KS ver = 33 (0x21)
fs guimode 0
D3D11 init start
D3D11 Device: AMD FirePro W5100 [\\.\DISPLAY1] (0,0,3840,2160)
D3D11CreateDevice succeeded with level 11.1
D3D11_resize 1 0 0 (0)
D3D11_resize 0 1 1 (0)
D3D11_resize -> fullscreen
WM_SIZE restored
D3D11_resize 1 1 1 (0)
WM_SIZE
D3D11_resize 0 1 1 (0)
D3D11 freed3d start
D3D11 freed3d end
D3D11 resize 1920 1080, 752 484
D3D11 initd3d start
-> -752.000000 484.000000 752.000000 -484.000000 2.000000 2.000000
D3D11 initd3d end
POS (0 0 1920 1080) - (-584 -298 376 242)[960,540] (480 270) S=1920*1080 B=752*484
0 0 2 2
-> -752.000000 484.000000 752.000000 -484.000000 2.000000 2.000000
D3D11 init end
fs guimode end
D3D11 free start
D3D11 freed3d start
D3D11 freed3d end
WM_SIZE restored
D3D11_resize 1 0 1 (0)
WM_SIZE
D3D11_resize 0 0 1 (0)
D3D11 freed3d start
D3D11 freed3d end
D3D11 resize 1920 1080, 752 484
D3D11 initd3d start
-> -752.000000 484.000000 752.000000 -484.000000 2.000000 2.000000
D3D11 initd3d end
POS (0 0 1920 1080) - (-584 -298 376 242)[960,540] (480 270) S=1920*1080 B=752*484
0 0 2 2
-> -752.000000 484.000000 752.000000 -484.000000 2.000000 2.000000
D3D11 free end
WM_SIZE restored
D3D11_resize 1 0 1 (0)
WM_SIZE
D3D11_resize 0 0 1 (0)
SetCursorPos 1280x720
window already open (0x0 1920x1080)
Allocated draw temp buffer (1600*1280*32) = 0000000009758040
D3D11 init start
D3D11 Device: AMD FirePro W5100 [\\.\DISPLAY1] (0,0,3840,2160)
D3D11CreateDevice succeeded with level 11.1
IDXGIFactory2 CreateSwapChainForHwnd 80070005
D3D11 free start
D3D11 freed3d start
D3D11 freed3d end
D3D11 free end
D3D11 free start
D3D11 freed3d start
D3D11 freed3d end
D3D11 free end
Direct3D11 failed to initialize, falling back to Direct3D9.
...

mark_k · 10 December 2017, 22:31

Since my old laptop died I no longer have access to feature level 9_1, 9_2 or 9_3 hardware. But if anyone does and wants to see how WinUAE works with it (probably crashes, but you never know...) here's a patched WinUAE 3.6.0b11 which requests minimum feature level 9_1 instead of 10_0. [It should work same as the original on feature level 10_0 or higher hardware I think?]

Code:

https://www.media!fire.com/file/7lh4mckwqnfm396/winuae_3600b11_FeatureLevel_9_1.7z

Toni Wilen · 11 December 2017, 19:24

It does not work, I tried, nothing worked, I am sure it uses many multiple 10+ only features. And this hack surely won't work because shaders require 10.0+.

Does non-ancient (less than 10 years old) hardware that supports Win7+ (I don't count trying to use Win XP drivers!) really exists that does not support 10.0?

mark_k · 11 December 2017, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

DXGI 1.5 (which introduced tearing option) was introduced in 1607.

MSDN says "To use this feature, app users need to be on Windows 10 systems with either KB3156421 or the Anniversary Update installed."
KB3156421 is the May 10 2016 cumulative update for Windows 10 1511. So any later updates would include that.

Of course it's not unheard of for MSDN to be wrong... Or maybe it's a driver limitation: Quadro NVS135M latest driver is v342.01.

mark_k · 11 December 2017, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Does non-ancient (less than 10 years old) hardware that supports Win7+ (I don't count trying to use Win XP drivers!) really exists that does not support 10.0?

Nvidia Geforce 7 series has drivers available for Windows 7 and 8. That specs page doesn't mention DirectX 10 anywhere.

Toni Wilen · 11 December 2017, 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_k

Nvidia Geforce 7 series has drivers available for Windows 7 and 8. That specs page doesn't mention DirectX 10 anywhere.

That was released over 10 years ago -> too old

Series 8 was first to support DX10 and it was also released about 10 years ago.

Dr.Venom · 13 December 2017, 10:03

I came across this nice video by microsoft providing context on the impact of input latency with touch screens.

Especially the "rubber band effect" is visualized in a very nice way; interesting since it effectively visualizes the impact of emulator input latency versus real hardware. The larger / smaller the input delay the larger / smaller the "rubber band effect". I was surprised to see that even a 10ms delay still has noticable impact when an object is moved quickly around.

[ Show youtube player ]

mark_k · 13 December 2017, 14:14

Patched WinUAE 3.6.0b12 which requests feature level 9_1 (if 11_1 and 11_0 not available).

Code:

http://www.media!fire.com/file/ngee48c7ocxft1p/winuae_3600b12_FeatureLevel_9_1.7z

I used dxcpl to set feature level limit to 9_1, 9_2 and 9_3, each time WinUAE reported this on starting emulation (D3D11 windowed):
D3D11 init start
CheckFeatureSupport(DXGI_FEATURE_PRESENT_ALLOW_TEARING) = 00000000 1
D3D11 Device: AMD FirePro W5100 [\\.\DISPLAY1] (0,0,3840,2160)
D3D11CreateDevice LEVEL_11_1: 887a0004
D3D11CreateDevice LEVEL_11_0: 887a0004
D3D11CreateDevice succeeded with level 9.1
D3D11_resize 0 0 0 (0)
D3D11 freed3d start
D3D11 freed3d end
D3D11 resize 1536 1152, 1536 1152
D3D11 initd3d start
ID3D11Device CreateRasterizerState 8007000e
D3D11 free start
D3D11 freed3d start
D3D11 freed3d end
D3D11 free end
D3D11 Resize failed.

Toni Wilen · 13 December 2017, 21:38

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx helped to find out what 9.x requires.

After few simple changes D3D11 mode should now work with level 9.1 and higher hardware.

19 November 2017, 09:06	#104
Dr.Venom Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Netherlands Posts: 485	Issue is still there, tested with winuae.7z from this morning. Logs attached. Last edited by Dr.Venom; 15 May 2019 at 20:32.

10 December 2017, 22:31	#113
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,340	Since my old laptop died I no longer have access to feature level 9_1, 9_2 or 9_3 hardware. But if anyone does and wants to see how WinUAE works with it (probably crashes, but you never know...) here's a patched WinUAE 3.6.0b11 which requests minimum feature level 9_1 instead of 10_0. [It should work same as the original on feature level 10_0 or higher hardware I think?] Code: https://www.media!fire.com/file/7lh4mckwqnfm396/winuae_3600b11_FeatureLevel_9_1.7z

13 December 2017, 14:14	#119
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,340	Patched WinUAE 3.6.0b12 which requests feature level 9_1 (if 11_1 and 11_0 not available). Code: http://www.media!fire.com/file/ngee48c7ocxft1p/winuae_3600b12_FeatureLevel_9_1.7z I used dxcpl to set feature level limit to 9_1, 9_2 and 9_3, each time WinUAE reported this on starting emulation (D3D11 windowed): D3D11 init start CheckFeatureSupport(DXGI_FEATURE_PRESENT_ALLOW_TEARING) = 00000000 1 D3D11 Device: AMD FirePro W5100 [\\.\DISPLAY1] (0,0,3840,2160) D3D11CreateDevice LEVEL_11_1: 887a0004 D3D11CreateDevice LEVEL_11_0: 887a0004 D3D11CreateDevice succeeded with level 9.1 D3D11_resize 0 0 0 (0) D3D11 freed3d start D3D11 freed3d end D3D11 resize 1536 1152, 1536 1152 D3D11 initd3d start ID3D11Device CreateRasterizerState 8007000e D3D11 free start D3D11 freed3d start D3D11 freed3d end D3D11 free end D3D11 Resize failed.

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16 November 2017, 17:53	#101
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,510	Fullscreen should now work normally after exiting GUI. (But display is still blank when GUI is open)

18 November 2017, 16:08	#103
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,510	Redownload and attach log if it still happens.

25 November 2017, 11:48	#106
Dr.Venom Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Netherlands Posts: 485	Quick question: is the current implementation of the non-vsynced (tearing) mode considered to be no buffering or double buffering or isn't that applicable yet (or known..)?

03 December 2017, 10:17	#108
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,510	D3D11 mode should now work with FEATURE_LEVEL_10 hardware.

03 December 2017, 14:23	#109
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,340	Thanks. Seems to work fine with Quadro NVS135M (level 10_0) on Windows 10 1511 x64 and Windows 7 x86.

10 December 2017, 16:53	#110
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,340	Out of interest, what did you have to change to get D3D11 mode working on feature level 10_0 hardware? On my laptop I was slightly disappointed to find no tearing in windowed and full-window modes with D3D11. Not sure whether that's due to the older graphics hardware/driver or Win10 version. Too scared to update it from 1511 just yet.

10 December 2017, 20:15	#112
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,340	I noticed a couple of problems testing D3D11 full-screen mode with 3.6.0b11 on my desktop PC (Windows 10 1709, AMD FirePro W5100). With no buffering or double buffering, in full-screen mode I get a black screen with this output to the log over and over: D3D11 Present 887a0001 Sometimes WinUAE falls back to D3D9 mode. It seems to do that reliably if I open settings, change full-screen resolution then resume emulation (and maybe sometimes if I change buffering setting). From the log output below it seems CreateSwapChainForHwnd() fails. fs guimode 1 D3D11 free start D3D11 freed3d start D3D11 freed3d end D3D11 free end fs guimode end WM_SIZE restored D3D11_resize 1 0 1 (1) WM_SIZE D3D11_resize 0 0 1 (1) GUIBase 821x626 (6x13) GUIBase 821x626 (6x13) Requested GUI size = 821x602 (1920x1080) Got GUI size = 821x604 Notify error code = 80004005 (-2147467259) KS ver = 33 (0x21) fs guimode 0 D3D11 init start D3D11 Device: AMD FirePro W5100 [\\.\DISPLAY1] (0,0,3840,2160) D3D11CreateDevice succeeded with level 11.1 D3D11_resize 1 0 0 (0) D3D11_resize 0 1 1 (0) D3D11_resize -> fullscreen WM_SIZE restored D3D11_resize 1 1 1 (0) WM_SIZE D3D11_resize 0 1 1 (0) D3D11 freed3d start D3D11 freed3d end D3D11 resize 1920 1080, 752 484 D3D11 initd3d start -> -752.000000 484.000000 752.000000 -484.000000 2.000000 2.000000 D3D11 initd3d end POS (0 0 1920 1080) - (-584 -298 376 242)[960,540] (480 270) S=19201080 B=752484 0 0 2 2 -> -752.000000 484.000000 752.000000 -484.000000 2.000000 2.000000 D3D11 init end fs guimode end D3D11 free start D3D11 freed3d start D3D11 freed3d end WM_SIZE restored D3D11_resize 1 0 1 (0) WM_SIZE D3D11_resize 0 0 1 (0) D3D11 freed3d start D3D11 freed3d end D3D11 resize 1920 1080, 752 484 D3D11 initd3d start -> -752.000000 484.000000 752.000000 -484.000000 2.000000 2.000000 D3D11 initd3d end POS (0 0 1920 1080) - (-584 -298 376 242)[960,540] (480 270) S=19201080 B=752484 0 0 2 2 -> -752.000000 484.000000 752.000000 -484.000000 2.000000 2.000000 D3D11 free end WM_SIZE restored D3D11_resize 1 0 1 (0) WM_SIZE D3D11_resize 0 0 1 (0) SetCursorPos 1280x720 window already open (0x0 1920x1080) Allocated draw temp buffer (1600128032) = 0000000009758040 D3D11 init start D3D11 Device: AMD FirePro W5100 [\\.\DISPLAY1] (0,0,3840,2160) D3D11CreateDevice succeeded with level 11.1 IDXGIFactory2 CreateSwapChainForHwnd 80070005 D3D11 free start D3D11 freed3d start D3D11 freed3d end D3D11 free end D3D11 free start D3D11 freed3d start D3D11 freed3d end D3D11 free end Direct3D11 failed to initialize, falling back to Direct3D9. ...

11 December 2017, 19:24	#114
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,510	It does not work, I tried, nothing worked, I am sure it uses many multiple 10+ only features. And this hack surely won't work because shaders require 10.0+. Does non-ancient (less than 10 years old) hardware that supports Win7+ (I don't count trying to use Win XP drivers!) really exists that does not support 10.0?

13 December 2017, 10:03	#118
Dr.Venom Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Netherlands Posts: 485	I came across this nice video by microsoft providing context on the impact of input latency with touch screens. Especially the "rubber band effect" is visualized in a very nice way; interesting since it effectively visualizes the impact of emulator input latency versus real hardware. The larger / smaller the input delay the larger / smaller the "rubber band effect". I was surprised to see that even a 10ms delay still has noticable impact when an object is moved quickly around. [ Show youtube player ]

13 December 2017, 21:38	#120
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,510	https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx helped to find out what 9.x requires. After few simple changes D3D11 mode should now work with level 9.1 and higher hardware.

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