English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Amiga scene

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 26 April 2017, 05:02   #141
grelbfarlk
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
"You can milk a cow shamelessly but we all know the cow will get old and die at some point." :-)

Cloanto as a company does a lot of mixed stuff, one of it happens to be Amiga Forever, so they are hardly dependent on it for its survival, but, without any sort of development of the OS and content itself, the market *will* get saturated - and then what?
The growth forecast for a static niche system isn't great. By opening the sources while continuing to oversee the distributions they would have new stuff to offer and that way, the small market you have would have a reason to get back to them for more.

Oh well.. I guess only enough $$ could make things move because it seems they care about some small profit not any actual interest in keeping the platform fresh....

Or maybe Jens will buy it eventually and become the emperor of Amigaland ;-)
Also quoting this, the growth forecast for a static niche system like Amigas is a downward slope. I think all we can hope for is that people who owned and loved an Amiga at some point get curious and pick up one of the new products here or there but that's it. I don't think there is much likelihood of new users coming to the platform.

What happens now is that the few Amiga users left hoard Amigas. Some play Pokemon and try to catch them all and restore them to working state and upgrade the hell out of them.

Knowing the above one tactic for the manufacturers of Amiga products try to maximise the profit per purchase.

This is bad because it discourages casually curious people to avoid the platform at all costs since the barrier to entry is so high. If you tried to explain to someone who is not an Amigan that you spent $300 on a Zorro Network, USB and lets say a sound card they will think you are nuts.

You can see that the hoarding and collecting part of the community has started to block out the casually curious crowd since the price to buy even a basic beat up unexpanded A500 is getting pretty high.

There is always the hope that the community or grassroots people will release interesting and cheap expansions but they don't end up being that cheap at all and to an uninterested party seem like crazy luxury purchases.

I'm not trying to be negative here but some day not really too far off the community will be reduced to some retro computing sub-forum and a surprisingly large amount of archive.org entries. And that's fine too all we can say is that during our time we did burn.
grelbfarlk is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 26 April 2017, 09:53   #142
E-Penguin
Banana

 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthey View Post
I hope Jens doesn't buy and control the whole Amigaland. Do you really think he is that good that you would trust the whole Amiga future with him? What great vision and leadership has he exhibited so far?
I realise I'm in danger of sounding like an apologist, but there aren't many companies making stuff for the classic Amigas on a commercial basis. Those that are are keeping the old hardware relevant and letting newcomers (and returnees) get into the Amiga without needing to spend a fortune. An Amiga 500 + trapdoor 512k + aca500plus won't break the bank and can run a large percentage of all Amiga software.

Some sort of controlling commercial entity isn't a bad thing necessarily, if they're actually producing stuff and so have a self-interest in growing the number of active users.

The trick is to persuade such companies that they can have their cake and eat it with open source. I believe they can (many a company is making millions from open source stuff).
E-Penguin is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 11:16   #143
wXR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 552
@E-Penguin

Let me just say something about Jens' work: he produces reliably and admirably, and offers pretty good support, all things considered. One can truly appreciate what hoops he must go through in order for Individual Computers to operate as a functional business. It is impressive, to say the very least.

On the other hand, silos and monopolization enforced through the unholy medium of copyright, especially pertaining to a space which is effectively hobbyist-driven, is absurd and profane. Most of us working on something here are doing it for the love and the glory, not for the gold.

Now, does anyone honestly believe that the liberation of AmigaOS 3.1 would result in stagnation? Or to put it another way, does anyone believe that there would be less sustained development than we see at present? If you can follow my hypothesis that this release would result in a flurry of hobbyist OS development, then it probably isn't difficult to make the following conceptual leap either:

More open development on the core OS, means more energy: discussion, ideation, and even more empassioned conflict (for better or for worse) are the likely result. And, more of that result means more people will want to play, in general. More people wanting to play in general means more hardware sales.

To my mind's eye, this is a fairly straightforward proposition which begins by respecting the community. And by "community" I do not mean idealized legal fictions, but rather the actual, real members of the community. Do not attempt to curtail their rights; allow them the freedom to share and grow. Have our cake and eat it, indeed.
wXR is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 12:30   #144
E-Penguin
Banana

 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 363
I completely agree that open source is the best way forward, but don't forget that the commercial entities are themselves part of the "community" and should be seen as valued members rather than evil money-grabbing leeches. Apart from Amiga Inc, who are evil money-grabbing leeches.

Moving Amiga to a post-copyright world is an admirable goal but one that needs the buy-in of the commercial rights holders. We need to show how that can be done to their benefits.
E-Penguin is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 13:07   #145
michaelz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Den Haag / Netherlands
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
I realise I'm in danger of sounding like an apologist, but there aren't many companies making stuff for the classic Amigas on a commercial basis. Those that are are keeping the old hardware relevant and letting newcomers (and returnees) get into the Amiga without needing to spend a fortune. An Amiga 500 + trapdoor 512k + aca500plus won't break the bank and can run a large percentage of all Amiga software.


Unfortunatly even the proces of the 500 are going up atm. An 500 is nearly double the price of 3 years ago here in the Netherlands.
michaelz is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 13:16   #146
wXR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 552
Unfortunately there isn't much that can be done if the actual commercial rightsholders are not willing to entertain a path towards this outcome, or even consider the possible benefits. After all, I cannot "prove" a given set of outcomes of relicensing, especially for these companies, which I know nothing about. I can only say, look around at the world in which we live, and observe the results of open source, specifically in terms of community.

I am told by Jens that it is not about the money, and maybe it isn't. Perhaps that is true of the controllers of the other involved entities too, if we are to be generous in our consideration. If controlling the fate of AmigaOS was their dream-of-dreams, then rational discussion is impossible, and perhaps there isn't "a price", despite any benefits one could conceivably convey.
wXR is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 14:13   #147
michaelz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Den Haag / Netherlands
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by wXR View Post
Unfortunately there isn't much that can be done if the actual commercial rightsholders are not willing to entertain a path towards this outcome, or even consider the possible benefits. After all, I cannot "prove" a given set of outcomes of relicensing, especially for these companies, which I know nothing about. I can only say, look around at the world in which we live, and observe the results of open source, specifically in terms of community.

I am told by Jens that it is not about the money, and maybe it isn't. Perhaps that is true of the controllers of the other involved entities too, if we are to be generous in our consideration. If controlling the fate of AmigaOS was their dream-of-dreams, then rational discussion is impossible, and perhaps there isn't "a price", despite any benefits one could conceivably convey.
I think it's not about money either. As far as I can see, most companies are in it for the love of the Amiga. And like most people here, they simply try to protect it in the way they see fit. Just like some people think they should hoard hardware, because otherwise it may end up in the dumpster or someone's hands who don't care for it, so do these companies hoard software, rights and trademarks.

Mike Battilana (Cloanto) is not negative about releasing rights to someone else (or some entity), it's mostly; will they do even half the job Cloanto did trying to get all rights sorted out. So in the end, it's a matter of trust and this works both ways. This is something we need to focus on first, both parties has to establish a level of trust of the other.
michaelz is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 14:14   #148
chiark
Needs a life

chiark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: England
Posts: 1,621
Could I ask how open sourcing 3.1 would be different from, for example, what AROS has achieved? They've been doing this for years with the 3.1 API as the basis... Take a look at their approach to memory protection, for example.

I'm not trying to troll, I'm genuinely trying to understand why open sourcing 3.1 would lead to any innovation even in the hobbyist community given we have 4.x, and AROS. 3.1 is what it is...
chiark is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 14:38   #149
E-Penguin
Banana

 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 363
Opportunities, first and foremost. At the moment, there are none; once open-sourced there will be more.

Personally I think the future of Amiga is on ARM; look at what RiscOS have done to get it on the RaspberryPi, with dual licencing as a half-way house between open- and closed-source.

michaelz mentioned the cost of classic hardware and other have said the only way Amiga has a future is if new, mass-produced, cheap functional hardware is produced. This will never happen with OS4/A-EON (even the A1222 bare-bones low-end board-only is €400 - I can get a decent laptop for that!). Targeting something like the RaspberryPi and its ilk gives people a chance to use AmigaOS.

Probably the resources aren't there at Cloanto/Hyperion to embark on such a porting exercise with no guaranteed return on investment, so they're locked into m68k/PCC. Making it open-source allows "the community" to do the work of porting to any desired platform.
E-Penguin is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 14:51   #150
Minuous
Coder/webmaster/gamer
Minuous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canberra/Australia
Posts: 1,650
@chiark:

It wouldn't really, that is why OS3.9 or OS4.x would make more sense.
Minuous is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 15:12   #151
michaelz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Den Haag / Netherlands
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
@chiark:



It wouldn't really, that is why OS3.9 or OS4.x would make more sense.


But probably neither of those can be open sourced if 3.1 isn't in the first place. So at the background I'm busy with Cloanto (allready started talking) and trying to start communication with Haage & Partners. 4.x is probably to high of a goal atm as this is still actively being developed and sold on new hardware.
michaelz is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 16:33   #152
grond
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
the commercial entities are themselves part of the "community" and should be seen as valued members rather than evil money-grabbing leeches.
Arguably a healthy ecosystem will have some leeches. You can call them "part of the community/ecosystem" but that will not change their nature of being evil money-grabbing leeches.
grond is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 19:39   #153
michaelz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Den Haag / Netherlands
Posts: 193
Critical components to open source

As a side project, I'm currently looking who owns the rights of the now liquidated MetaComCo ABasiC. I tried contacting the liquidators in question (KPMG) but in the UK it apparently is common practice to destroy the transaction records after 7 years. So does perhaps anyone here have a clue?
michaelz is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 20:04   #154
Olaf Barthel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lehrte, Germany
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelz View Post
As a side project, I'm currently looking who owns the rights of the now liquidated MetaComCo ABasiC. I tried contacting the liquidators in question (KPMG) but in the UK it apparently is common practice to destroy the transaction records after 7 years. So does perhaps anyone here have a clue?
Hm... which value does "ABasiC" actually have today? What does it enable which could not be accomplish by any other means? Is it worth the effort, considering how much more advanced its "successor" AmigaBASIC was by comparison, and even that was not exactly the yardstick by which BASIC interpreter performance, power, and GUI responsiveness had to be measured.

Call me a hard man, but I would much rather see one of the commercial Amiga 'C' compilers made by the defunct Manx Software Systems of Shrewsbury, New Jersey made available for free use, including the source code for its runtime library.
Olaf Barthel is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 20:11   #155
wXR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 552
@Olaf

Thanks for getting this thread back on track actually. :-) Maybe these nice folks at Amiga Source Preservation can help to track it down?

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=1129188
wXR is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 21:08   #156
michaelz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Den Haag / Netherlands
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Barthel View Post
Hm... which value does "ABasiC" actually have today? What does it enable which could not be accomplish by any other means? Is it worth the effort, considering how much more advanced its "successor" AmigaBASIC was by comparison, and even that was not exactly the yardstick by which BASIC interpreter performance, power, and GUI responsiveness had to be measured.



Call me a hard man, but I would much rather see one of the commercial Amiga 'C' compilers made by the defunct Manx Software Systems of Shrewsbury, New Jersey made available for free use, including the source code for its runtime library.


ABasiC is not really important, but as AmigaBasic was made by Microsoft that will be a no go for our community I think. If people wish, I'll definitely can try, but I think ABasiC is the easier road ATM (no commercial successor, nobody that has any commercial stake in it as far as I know of ATM).

I also contacted HiSoft and am waiting for an answer as we speak. That would enable quite a line of products we might save from extinction.
michaelz is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 22:03   #157
ptyerman
Registered User

ptyerman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Worksop/UK
Age: 53
Posts: 981
It would be nice if HiSoft made another run of Squirrel cards. They are getting hard to get and expensive. Either that or pass on the schematics so someone could make them.
ptyerman is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 23:04   #158
esc
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Palo Alto, California, USA
Posts: 389
// derailing this a bit

I had a thought. Maybe warpos would be the most impactful candidate to open-source.

Think about it - being able to write warpos drivers for multiple cards, including uaegfx. You'd be able to fully emulate an amiga capable of playing any demo or game with a uaegfx warpos driver.

Seems like a home run.
esc is offline  
Old 26 April 2017, 23:52   #159
gulliver
BoingBagged

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The South of nowhere
Age: 39
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelz View Post
ABasiC is not really important, but as AmigaBasic was made by Microsoft that will be a no go for our community I think. If people wish, I'll definitely can try, but I think ABasiC is the easier road ATM (no commercial successor, nobody that has any commercial stake in it as far as I know of ATM).

I also contacted HiSoft and am waiting for an answer as we speak. That would enable quite a line of products we might save from extinction.
You are making a wrong assumptiong my friend, Microsoft is a company that has an internal policy of allowing free distribution of their abondonware products if they dont pose a risk to their current markets or projects.

They have opened sourced or allowed binary distributions of their property free of charge in many cases. In the Amiga scenario, I remember more than a decade ago that they even gave permission to Back To the Roots to redistribute some games which were of their property. The same can be said about Caligari (Truespace). So it is a matter of reaching the right people in there.

That said, I agree with Olaf Barthel, that those basic implementations are not remarkable by any means and we should better get ManX C. But if you are looking for completeness in your endeavour, it never hurts to ask.
gulliver is offline  
Old 27 April 2017, 03:04   #160
grelbfarlk
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by esc View Post
// derailing this a bit

I had a thought. Maybe warpos would be the most impactful candidate to open-source.

Think about it - being able to write warpos drivers for multiple cards, including uaegfx. You'd be able to fully emulate an amiga capable of playing any demo or game with a uaegfx warpos driver.

Seems like a home run.
Someone pretty much already has, as in rewrote the whole thing for other cards, though technically I don't know what license applies. I don't know what uaegfx has to do with WarpOS, but if you have a PPC card that you can somehow mount in an Amiga let Hedeon know (or me as I will send him about 30 messages about it). Or if someone wants to build one the code is open for anyone to fork, though I think it would be better if they were in the main project.

What I wonder is can parts of P96 be rewritten to support WarpOS and would that provide any benefit, like run the GFX driver from the PPC side. Also WarpOS AHI drivers, I know Martin Blom worked on this and actually has some alphas out there of it, but it was never released to a stable or usable state. Sorry for the derail.
grelbfarlk is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help to open-source SAS/C Hauke Coders. General 35 26 September 2017 23:39
Please open source all the things wXR Amiga scene 380 14 May 2017 18:27
Postal gone Open Source Shoonay Retrogaming General Discussion 1 29 December 2016 16:35
FBlit source now open. Samurai_Crow Coders. Asm / Hardware 30 01 December 2015 16:08
NewsRog goes Open Source Paul News 0 04 December 2004 17:37

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.40939 seconds with 14 queries