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Old 19 May 2017, 12:52   #81
kovacm
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What software Amiga had, and Atari lack, that makes Amiga so much better??

I got impression that Amiga users have no clue about Atari software (by your comment here)...

I would really like to see (and to make) video where we could compare same tasks on both computer: Amiga 1200 and Atari Falcon030. Just like I made comparison of text processors on Mac LC II and Atari Falcon: [ Show youtube player ]

I am eager to see how Amiga excel so much Atari on software side!


On the subject of software:
long time ago I open thread "Programs born on Atari, Amiga, Mac... and then ported to Windows" so be free to add any other programs on list
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Old 19 May 2017, 15:45   #82
idrougge
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Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
This is so true the 1200 sold many thousands figures when the Falcon sold only 14.000 something......
And the 386 PC sold a thousand times more. So it must be the bestest computer evar, right?
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Old 19 May 2017, 15:47   #83
idrougge
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Originally Posted by kovacm View Post
There was MagiC that is preemptive multitasking and far faster than single TOS.
It's a shame that MagiC took a long time to reach stability and never reached large market penetration outside Germany (which, of course, was the only really significant ST market).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kovacm
There is also Geneve OS for Atari...
Geneva is co-operative multitasking.

Not to mention that multitasking on the ST is always a bit of a gamble because programs haven't been written with multitasking in mind, quite the opposite.
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Old 19 May 2017, 16:07   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovacm View Post
What software Amiga had, and Atari lack, that makes Amiga so much better??
A web browser that wasn't CAB.
Non-linear video editing.
Graphics and paint programs.
A command-line interface.
User interface guidelines and libraries that made programs easy to use. In TOS, user interfaces are extremely ad-hoc.
Inter-process scripting to make full use of these programs in a multitasking environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kovacm
I got impression that Amiga users have no clue about Atari software (by your comment here)...
Some of us do, but naturally most don't.
The ST/Falcon has some strengths software-wise:
sequencing
hard disk recording
replacement OSes and desktops
DTP (at least on par with Amiga)
Word processing
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Old 19 May 2017, 16:16   #85
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Originally Posted by trixster View Post
I had a blizzard 1220 28mhz 020 (which is broadly 25mhz 030 performance) and there's no way that machine could match either Dml's quake 2 demos or badmood (doom) on the falcon.

One thing to mention about these two is that they're not on 'stock' Falcons, they need 14mb!
The engine and the speed is the same if you've 4Mb or 14Mb. Simply, dml can add more textures or more bigger with more memory. Thats all.

Btw, Impressive too the last part from this demo for a 16Mhz machine.

[ Show youtube player ]


This one need FPU but also very impressive in 16Mhz.

[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 19 May 2017, 17:54   #86
frank_b
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
It's a shame that MagiC took a long time to reach stability and never reached large market penetration outside Germany (which, of course, was the only really significant ST market).



Geneva is co-operative multitasking.

Not to mention that multitasking on the ST is always a bit of a gamble because programs haven't been written with multitasking in mind, quite the opposite.
GEM had a cooperative multitasking scheduler from day 1. It was limited to one app and 6 desk accessories though. Magic is quite a bit quicker and more responsive than Amiga OS on a 68000. Amiga OS is a bit slicker though.

Last edited by frank_b; 19 May 2017 at 20:24.
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Old 19 May 2017, 18:57   #87
trixster
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Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
base models were;
599 1mb
799 4mb
999 4mb with 65mb hdd

not base but i saw the earliest one with 14mb ram for 1299 no hdd
No wonder it tanked
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Old 26 May 2017, 00:09   #88
kovacm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
• Inter-process scripting to make full use of these programs in a multitasking environment.
How this translate to everyday computer usage?
Can you give us some examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
• DTP (at least on par with Amiga)
• Word processing
What are best Amiga OS DTP, Graphics/Painting and Word processing programs?


btw
if somebody missed, some times ago I opened two threads regarding best 3D demos for vanila Amiga 1200:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=69697
http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25174
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Old 26 May 2017, 00:18   #89
idrougge
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Originally Posted by kovacm View Post
How this translate to everyday computer usage?
Can you give us some examples?
Any program with an ARexx port is scriptable. That way, you can do a printout of all the fonts in your word processor or DTP program. Or make Workbench open a certain directory, resize the window and rearrange all icons in a certain pattern. Or create a macro in your graphics program to crop, resize, apply a filter and save in a certain format. If two programs are scriptable, you can connect them together so that, for example, you can tell your graphics program to save a picture and then tell your DTP program to import the picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kovacm
What are best Amiga OS DTP, Graphics/Painting and Word processing programs?
DTP: Pagestream. The ST had that one too, but stopped at version 2.
Graphics: DeluxePaint, Personal Paint, ArtEffect, Photogenics
Word processing: Final Writer, Wordworth. Neither is an industry leader, though.
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Old 26 May 2017, 00:31   #90
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I am aware of ARexx (it was ported to OS/2) but I can not grasp how functional it is - it gave you access to all widgets and menus from program?

I would like to see it in action but unfortunate on youtube there is no video regarding ARexx.


Thanks for suggestion of programs. I need to install my Amiga 1200 and to make some video of Calamus vs Pagestream, PhotoLine vs Photogenics, Papyrus vs Final Writer...
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Old 26 May 2017, 02:07   #91
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For me it all boils down to ownership.
Back when I grew up, most of the kids in my school had either C64/128 or Sinclair Spectrum.
A few had Apple 2 or an IBM clone, only one kid I knew had an 8bit Atari.

When the 16bit era began, most moved to a PC or Amiga. Very few I knew had a Mac.
I'm 43 years old and only met two Atari ST owners in my life, both used it for MIDI and nothing more.

As for the Falcon, what does it matter how good it was if you couldnt buy it?
Never seen one in the flesh, not back then and not today.

Also, the poor design of the ST always amazed me.
How can a 16bit machine designed in 1984/5 not have hardware scrolling & sprites, when all Atari 8-bit machines had it ?
Boggles the mind...
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Old 26 May 2017, 09:09   #92
kovacm
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Here in ex-yugoslavia lot of peoples and companies had Atari ST and PC. Almost non had Mac (although Yugoslavia was sixth country in Apple register that have official import dealer). I guess that Mac was to expensive and people smart enough to recognize price/value of ST over Mac.

Amiga only become to appear after 1988/9., after cost-reduced Amiga 500 come to market and it was used to play games and demo scene. We had really strong demo scene in Serbia in 90s.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UberFreak View Post
As for the Falcon, what does it matter how good it was if you couldnt buy it?
Never seen one in the flesh, not back then and not today.
It is real shame and waste that such superior machine did not have a chance to be properly exploited in 90s. After 1991. Ataris profit halved and employees also get halved every consequent year so Atari simple did not have money and resources to support Falcon properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberFreak View Post
Also, the poor design of the ST always amazed me.
How can a 16bit machine designed in 1984/5 not have hardware scrolling & sprites, when all Atari 8-bit machines had it ?
Boggles the mind...
Price, time and...:
since ST was going to be primary cheap serious computer with hi-res 71Hz B/W monitor, hardware scrolling would not help anyhow in this area.
You can see how they were not concern (or was in hurry) regarding hardware scrolling is by fact that video base address register for the bottom eight bits simply doesn't exist on the ST so its screen address is bound to 256 bytes steps. If they implement this low eight bits, than ST would have at least vertical hardware scroll for almost no cost in additional hardware. But they did not.
Atari ST simple never meant to be competing against Amiga (contrary to believes; idea that was perpetuate by some vocals of Amiga team engineers), it was meant to compete against Apple and IBM.

Last edited by kovacm; 26 May 2017 at 09:17.
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Old 26 May 2017, 11:50   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UberFreak View Post
Also, the poor design of the ST always amazed me.
How can a 16bit machine designed in 1984/5 not have hardware scrolling & sprites, when all Atari 8-bit machines had it ?
Not only that, but the Atari ST also had the sound chip of 8-bit Sinclairs and Orics - Yamaha YM2149
Even the 8-bit Atari had better sound thanks to the POKEY.
It was called the Jackintosh because it was the poor mans Macintosh. Sure it wasn't intended to compete with the Amiga, but it hurt the Amiga sales for sure.

Last edited by drHirudo; 26 May 2017 at 15:38. Reason: amiga
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Old 26 May 2017, 15:31   #94
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Indeed, it wasn't meant to compete with the Amiga, but beat it to market, which it did.

Sadly, the fact that the ST had such limited video hardware for games, also hurt the Amiga due to all the games that were first developed on the ST and then quickly ported to the Amiga, without taking advantage of its capabilities.
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