Were Amiga owners short-sighted? Could Commodore have helped?

[appiah4]

If only Amiga had lived long enough to get a decent m68K linux kernel and OCS Xserver driver it would have actually lasted a lot longer than it did I would think. Open source OS, software and driver development would have done wonders for it IMO.

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

That's one of the happiest things I've read in a long time!

Microsoft Word (named "Write") for Atari ST was one of the worst piece of software ever written for ST! Read here: http://www.atarimagazines.com/startv...softwrite.html
That crap of wordprocessor was making some temporary files on floppy all the time

on other hand, ST had fine original software that possibly outclass anything from that time: STeve, Signum, Papyrus, german Protext...

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by clebin

The two aren't mutually exclusive though are they? From what I read, the Atari-Amiga deal was going on concurrently with Tramiel trying to buy Atari, and he had no idea it was happening despite making an offer to Amiga himself. Had the Atari-Amiga deal happened, Tramiel would have inherited a license to the Amiga custom chips when he took over.

Jack Tramiel did not "try to buy" Atari by any means (he practically got Atari on silver plate).
Warners (owner of Atari Inc.) CEO, Steve Ross, called Jack while he was on holiday with his wife (they went on "tour around the world" after Jack left Commodore) and urge him to cut his trip.
Warner BEG Jack to take Atari. Confirmation for this is great deal that Jack got from Warner to take over Atari: "Warner essentially gave away the company, in hopes Tramiel could make something happen"!
And reason for this is that Warner lose tremendous money with Atari, more than million $ per day! (more precise: 425$ millions per quarter in 1984. and total $538 million in 1983. link)! )
...so I am pretty sure that Atari Inc. would go bust if Tramiel did not take it.

And no Atari Inc. - no Amiga (since all other turn down Amiga so far: HP, Silicon Graphics, Sony, Philips and Apple).

Atari-Amiga "deal was going on concurrently with Tramiel" - more precisely: Atari Inc. and Amiga sign letter of intention on 6. March 1984., probably before Warner decide to sell Atari Inc. It should be done deal but Steve Greenberg from Commodore (now ex-Jack Tramiel consigliere for finance stuff) approach Amiga at 14th June. 1984. After some thoughts, David Morse decide to go with Commodore.

If Jack did not leave Commodore, Commodore would never buy Amiga chips, or Amiga company. Jack Tramiel already had contacts with Amiga, while he was still at Commodore (it must be before January 1984., before Atari Inc. - Amiga deal). Jack was interested only in chips and not engineers so negations did not get anywhere.

You suggest that Jack would acquire Amiga chips when he bought Atari if David did not go with Commodore. Yes, Jack would have license for Amiga chips but Atari ST (RBP Rock Bottom Price) was already planed out. I assume that they will continue with ST anyway. Maybe latter they would use Amiga chips for something... In that scenario, Amiga could continue to offer chips to any other company except: IBM, Commodore, Apple (and two more company that I can not remember right now). So possibly that someone would make something with Amiga chips, but again: unlikely since already many dismiss getting into any deal with Amiga except Atari.

---

There is one thing that would totaly change picture of computers: Commodore should made Amiga 500 (Amiga with home computer price) right in 1985.

[clebin]

You suggest that Jack would acquire Amiga chips when he bought Atari if David did not go with Commodore. Yes, Jack would have license for Amiga chips but Atari ST (RBP Rock Bottom Price) was already planed out. I assume that they will continue with ST anyway. Maybe latter they would use Amiga chips for something... In that scenario, Amiga could continue to offer chips to any other company except: IBM, Commodore, Apple (and two more company that I can not remember right now). So possibly that someone would make something with Amiga chips, but again: unlikely since already many dismiss getting into any deal with Amiga except Atari.

I assume differently. If Tramiel is handed the most advanced chips in the industry for basically nothing, what's he going to do? He was an opportunist, always looking for ways to manipulate any situation to his own advantage.

I think he'd damn well make use of the chips and rub the superiority of the technology back in Commodore's face. He wouldn't care too much about how to make Amiga mk2 either. When he got that crazy deal on Microsoft Basic, he didn't worry about working on a successor, he just bled the thing dry.

In fact, I see him pulling some dirty tricks to drive Amiga out of business and buying them for a pittance in order to gain exclusivity on the chips. That would be classic Tramiel.

When I say "I assume" or "Maybe later..." it shows that there's no concrete answer, but it is fun to speculate.

[edd_jedi]

It's an interesting angle. One observation from my personal experience - I had quite a lot of friends with Amiga's or PCs. However the difference was the PCs were always the parents computer that the child was "allowed" to play on. I didn't have any friends with their own PC. On the other hand, without exception all the Amiga's were owned by my friends (birthday/christmas presents usually.)

That explains why PCs were upgraded and Amiga's were not - how many kids had hundreds of pounds to upgrade their computer? I certainly didn't. I couldn't even afford games. On the other hand an "adult owned" PC was much more likely to get upgraded over time, even if only their child was using it to play games.

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by clebin

I assume differently. If Tramiel is handed the most advanced chips in the industry

Now you overblown things - I know you will throw rocks on me but: nobody want Amiga chips back in the day. Because David Morse was forced to accept Atari Inc. deal.

Originally Posted by clebin

I think he'd damn well make use of the chips and rub the superiority of the technology back in Commodore's face.

This is another funny thing among Amiga users: why do you think that he want some kind of revenge?

He already dismantle and make great deal of damage to Commodore when he bought Atari Corp.: dozens of engineers, accounting personal, manufacturing, marketing people... left Commodore and join him in new Atari Corp.


Biggest Commodore mistake, or Irvin G., was to let Jack go. If Jack stay in Commodore, Atari ST (RBP) or something even more powerful, will make certainly more impact to computer industry than eventually Amiga and ST did combined. Jack with Commodore wealth and infrastructure could do better.

There is also one more thing regarding 'Amiga get acquired by Commodore': Bernard Russell was sent from Commodore to evaluate Amiga. He was impressed with Amiga chips but he was misunderstood by Commodore - he suggested that Commodore only acquire chips, without Amiga employees! That would save Commodore 24$ millions that could be spent later on marketing. Amiga team at Commodore anyway was dismissed soon after Amiga launch. Commodore old employees was responsible for cut down Amiga 500 and Amiga 2000 versions of Amiga.

Originally Posted by clebin

He wouldn't care too much about how to make Amiga mk2 either.

What is mk2?

Originally Posted by clebin

When he got that crazy deal on Microsoft Basic, he didn't worry about working on a successor, he just bled the thing dry.

Originally Posted by clebin

In fact, I see him pulling some dirty tricks to drive Amiga out of business and buying them for a pittance in order to gain exclusivity on the chips. That would be classic Tramiel.

Another funny thing how you Amiga user perceive Jack Tramiel.
I believe that R.J. Michael make up stories about Tramiel are party responsible for this.

Jack Tramiel do business like he did with Microsoft, he was straight forward: - he will pay 25.000$ for Basic, not penny more. Take it or leave it.

I do not know why do you think that he would pull some dirty tricks... He stated that he would buy Amiga chips but not entire Amiga team. Dave Morse did not like it - goodbye.

Same with Apple: he did not want to buy Apple I when two Steves approach him because Jack already have deal with Chuck Peddle.


And because of this, I am pretty sure that he will turn around and make computer around Amiga chips, if he got it when he acquire Atari, because he already lay down plan with Shiraz Shivji for lowcost, high speed, hi resolution computer that can be used in business as good as at home. Like I said, he probably make something with Amiga chips only later, but also Amiga would be free to sell chips to (almost) any other company! Commodore buying Amiga left this option completely out of picture!!

Originally Posted by clebin

When I say "I assume" or "Maybe later..." it shows that there's no concrete answer, but it is fun to speculate.

nothing is concrete, every one of us have it's own true

[Anubis]

I always was under impression that Amiga has hold its own all the way until 94 and that similar to Sega, they made bunch of bad hardware decisions rather then focus on one thing that worked well for them. Rather then making Amiga CD32, Commodore CDTV and few other models, they should really had next generation with integrated HD, CD. turbo card and 3D chip in order to stay competitive.

I could not shake feeling that all they (Commodore) wanted was just to milk as much as possible without doing any breakthrough in technology... and similar to Sega, they lost. Remember what costed to get memory for PC vs. Amiga, or for example CD... always more expensive....

[nogginthenog]

Originally Posted by appiah4

If only Amiga had lived long enough to get a decent m68K linux kernel and OCS Xserver driver it would have actually lasted a lot longer than it did I would think. Open source OS, software and driver development would have done wonders for it IMO.

The Amiga had a decent Linux kernel and as far as I know an OCS driver.
It's still supported in the base sources thanks to Geert Uytterhoeven, Roman Zippel and friends.

Can't remember when I first used Linux on my A4000 but it was long ago.

It was a great learning experience for me as there was no 68k distributions at the time. I started with a very basic, very outdated hd image and then had to build everything from source.

[Locutus]

If i remember right the very first Linux port was to 68k (Atari TT).

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by Anubis

they should really had next generation with integrated HD, CD. turbo card and 3D chip in order to stay competitive.

All for £399? Never gonna happen, the top selling Amigas were budget models, all that you mentioned were highly expensive back then, otherwise it would be in PC price ranges of £1000.

Originally Posted by Anubis

I could not shake feeling that all they (Commodore) wanted was just to milk as much as possible without doing any breakthrough in technology... and similar to Sega, they lost. Remember what costed to get memory for PC vs. Amiga, or for example CD... always more expensive....

Well all companies milk products, some more blatantly than others, as for breakthrough technology, well they had the OCS chipset made by the Amiga team, there was no team left after a short time so no new chipset forthcoming, they should have used Flair like Atari but marketed a lot better!
CD drives were expensive for PC too, roughly the same price when the A570 came out, of course Commodore never released anymore cd drives so it's abit hard to compare A1200 CD drives as they weren't Commodores.

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

All for £399? Never gonna happen, the top selling Amigas were budget models, all that you mentioned were highly expensive back then, otherwise it would be in PC price ranges of £1000.

Well, Sony kind a did it... except keyboard and HD.

Originally Posted by Amigajay

Well all companies milk products, some more blatantly than others, as for breakthrough technology, well they had the OCS chipset made by the Amiga team, there was no team left after a short time so no new chipset forthcoming, they should have used Flair like Atari but marketed a lot better!
CD drives were expensive for PC too, roughly the same price when the A570 came out, of course Commodore never released anymore cd drives so it's abit hard to compare A1200 CD drives as they weren't Commodores.

So in overall, we can blame everything in absence of R&D... and vision...

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by Anubis

Well, Sony kind a did it... except keyboard and HD.

With a massive budget anything is possible, though I doubt the PS1 specs were possible in 91 when the A1200 was planned. The 3DO out in 93 was $700 and they had big companies behind it.

Originally Posted by Anubis

So in overall, we can blame everything in absence of R&D... and vision...

Commodore were good at selling products they were given, once they had to invent, change things up they didn't have a clue.

[neil324]

Originally Posted by amigajay

commodore were good at selling products they were given, once they had to invent, change things up they didn't have a clue.

c64

[neil324]

In fact Commodore first produced the 6502 and then used that in the VIC-20, the first personal computer to sell 1 million.

Then knocked out the 6581 and an improved 6502 variant the 6510 and chuck it in the C64 the best selling personal computer in history at 20 million units and corner the home computer market.

They also practically cornered the low cost cpu market by selling the 6502 to third parties.

They sat on the top of the world in 1983, all self made.

Then Jack Tramiel leaves in 1984...............

[Amigajay]

True, well pointed out, the earlier years they worked their way up, but after that they lost their way, they were still trying to sell the C64 until their dying day, and as mentioned the Amiga tech didn't evolve enough, both amazing products, but nothing from 87-94 they had plenty of time to build, but firing great innovating technicians was to be their downfall.

[neil324]

I don't think it's coincidence that Commodore as a company was more innovating and progressive while Jack Tramiel was there. Irving Gould was the money man. I think if Jack had stayed and assumming Commodore still got the Amiga tech, things would have turned out better.

[appiah4]

Im not so sure Jack would have made a difference. All the tech he ever produced at Commodore and went on to produce at Atari shared a common design philosophy to the Amiga. They all would have failed against the IBM AT standard and Microsoft partnership. The accessible upgradable oem supported intel platform business machine got the software monopoly and dug these aio computers graves. Cheap consoles went on to succeed the Amiga as a gaming machine. Regardless of who was at the helm sooner or later software would dry up and x86 would strangle the market as it did.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by appiah4

Cheap consoles went on to succeed the Amiga as a gaming machine. Regardless of who was at the helm sooner or later software would dry up and x86 would strangle the market as it did.

There was always a market for cheap consoles and cheap computers, they are totally different machines, people didn't to pay £50 for a console game or £1000 for a 386 PC in 1993, and Commodore could have kept it alive alot longer than they did, it was never consoles or the PC that killed the Amiga it was always Commodore, the cheap computer market gap was there for years to come, it wouldn't be a decade later for all in one PC's to hit that pricepoint.
So i have to disagree, someone at the helm could have took the Amiga to the next level, the guys in the US clearly weren't upto the task.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by EugeneNine

Well mac hardware sucks for the price. Its no better quality than a tier 2 PC vendor but sells for a much higher price. The OS is annoying and just a hack on top of BSD.

Spoken like a true computer scientist.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by appiah4

If only Amiga had lived long enough to get a decent m68K linux kernel and OCS Xserver driver it would have actually lasted a lot longer than it did I would think. Open source OS, software and driver development would have done wonders for it IMO.

Give a choice between cheap hardware with good performance and expensive hardware with low performance, what would you choose?